Distance Learning (Shorite Ryu Tai Jutsu and ICKA Kenpo).

[Ippon Ken]

Where did he get his system from? Was it his Kyokushinkai or TKD experience? Was it his limited Judo training? No and no. It was from another solid old school MMA called Shorin Ryu. In fact in Europe his style is called "Shoryn Ryu Taijutsu". Weird, huh?


But what does the average person know of the Okinawan arts and Shorin Ryu in particular? The b-boys call that stylee "biting". Yep, he took a bite and left the rest. He never trained for long enough in any art to formulate a new Shorin or new MA. He is not real.


$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Money makes the world unsound.

 

[Flatlander]

Shorite Ryu Tai Jutsu appears in the Budo International that's on the stands now (#14, dated January 2003 (sic)). It's inescapable!

That issue also says that Jim Wagner's friend Chris St.-Jacques will teach the secret techniques of Canadian Bodyguards. Ah, those deadly Canadians...known world-wide for their brutal martial arts.

*raises right eyebrow*

Hmmmmmmm.

 

[Josh]

Shorite Ryu Tai Jutsu appears in the Budo International that's on the stands now (#14, dated January 2003 (sic)). It's inescapable!

That issue also says that Jim Wagner's friend Chris St.-Jacques will teach the secret techniques of Canadian Bodyguards. Ah, those deadly Canadians...known world-wide for their brutal martial arts.

ya never know...

 

[James Kovacich]

Dr. Christian says he's a 10th dan under David German. Apparrently David is of American Kenpo lineage and the impression (first impression) I got was that German is respected.

I'd like to hear more.

 

[marshallbd]

Dosen't Harfouche have a link to David German, thus his link to the Kenpo line?

According to Mr Harfouche, (a published interview in BB Mag I think), he is from Mr German's lineage... :asian:

 

[marshallbd]

Mr. Weiser,

As an IKCA practitioner myself may I speak to a couple of misconceptions you seem to hold concerning the IKCA Curriculum.



Congratulations on taking the initiative to learn what is on the tapes, now take the next step and find out if you've learned it correctly. The testing portion of the program is where many folks choose not to continue with the IKCA. The failure rate of tests that are sent in is about 2.5-3 out of every 5 tests. Taping the test is easy, passing it is not as easy as it sounds. It should also be noted that Mr. Sullivan clearly states on the preview video that the material on the tapes is only half the sysytem. From the IKCA website: The video training tapes themselves, are only half of the program. The other half is the one-on-one relationship we have with our students, through interactive video. During the video critique/lesson process the remainder of the material in the curriculum is taught.



Although "lacking" is a term I would be adverse to using, I would point out that it's also stated that the goal of the IKCA Sysytem is to give an individual a strong base sysytem upon which they are encouraged to build. This particular statement is made by Mr. Sullivan on one of the tapes. Having said that, I personally have found (along with other IKCA practitioners) that as the system "cures" and "settles" with me there is much more in the system than is first realized. Does the IKCA system have everything? No. Find me a system that does. Does the IKCA have more than what some people give it credit for? Absolutely.



Sorry to have to point this out, but you have a gross misunderstanding of just one portion of the testing process of the IKCA. Your assertion is that you are allowed to make errors on individual techniques as a whole, this is not the case.

From the IKCA website once again on the page of IKCA Bylaws, Rank, item 8D:

D. Errors are as follows:

1a. An omitted movement such as a block, strike, maneuver, stance change, leg or hand check.

2a. A strike or kick that obviously misses the target, such as a ball kick to the groin that doesn't rise above the knee.

3a. Over-extended movements that take themselves too far beyond the circle of protection.

4a. An incorrect angle of direction for an entire technique or any portion of a technique.

5a. A general lack of snap or power.

Now guys and gals, you might want to do the math again, keeping in mind that we're just talking about one form here.



Mr. LeRoux calls it like it is. Why don't you send in a few tests and prove him wrong? Might be an eye-opener.

Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute

Sir, as always, I extremely enjoyed your posts. Very well written and clearly proven through references to the IKCA website. Keep em coming!
PS. on a side note, do you know when they, (Mr Sullivan and Mr Leroux) are going to put the videos into the DVD format? :asian:

 

[Mark Weiser]

Here is a portion on IKCA Orange Belt that I added to a recent newsletter. I hope you enjoy.

IKCA Orange Belt Self Defense Techinques​

​

​

Thunder & Lighting ( Left Punch Defense- Inside)

• Stepping into a cat stance with left foot flat and balanced on the ball of right foot execute an outward block with right hand with palm facing opponent
• Second do a snap kick with right foot to the groin
• Third movement is to plant the right foot into a right netural bow
• While planting the foot torque your hips counter clockwise while executing a straight punch to the head of the opponent

Escaping Ram ( Rear Bear Hug Defense - Arms pinned)

• The first movement to do is to grab the hands holding you across the chest. "Hands go where the pain is!" by pinning them to your chest with your hands
• Second movement is a rear head butt to the attackers face
• Third Movement is to drop your weight into a horse stance while forcing your buttocks into the groin or stomach area of the attacker
• Fourth movement is to turn and look where your opponent is and then move your left foot forward for balance and then execute a rear chicken kick or rear thrust kick to push opponent away
• Fifth movement is to bring right foot past your left foot and turn to face your attacker after moving one step forward.

Returning Serpent ( Right straight punch defense - inside)

• While stepping into a right bow stance execute a right inward block
• Second is a outside checking movement to the forearm of opponent with left hand
• Third movement is a circular backfist off the forearm to the face or neck with the right hand
• Fourth movement is with the left hand do a straight punch to the ribs of the opponent while bringing right hand to check any attack to the your face or neck.
• Fifth movement is a second backfist from the right hand into the face and neck region

.
Thrusting Release ( Front Bear Hug Defense - Arms pinned )

• First movement is a head butt to the attackers face
• Second movement is a double open palm heel strike (Right and Left Hands) to the ribs while step backwards with right leg into a left forward bow stance
• Third Movement is a front snap kick to the groin area.

Deflecting Thunder ( Right Ball Kick Defense - inside)

• First movement is to execute a downward block to the the left side with the left hand
• Second movement is to execute a snap kick into the groin area of your opponent
• Third movement an elbow strike with right elbow to the head of the opponent after being bent over by the kick

Beheading the Dragon ( Left straight Punch Defense - outside)

• In this movement the key is to check the left arm after the block and at the same time blocking the possible kick of the left leg by driving downward into the knee with your right knee pushing from the outside of the knee.
• Step One inside block with the right hand while going into a right netural bow stance, left hand protecting your face.
• Step Two bring left hand down across attackers arm pushing downward and away from you at the same time bring right fist across the ribs of the attacker ie striking the Ribs and bring the fist upwards besides your head.
• Meanwhile checking any attack from left leg while hands are moving bring right leg into left knee with your right knee driving knee inward towards the ground.
• After right fist is by your head grabbing the left wrist pulling attacker towards floor deliver a strike to the back of the neck. Going for the KO.

Sincerely,
Mark E. Weiser

 

[Rob Broad]

Mr. Parsons is indeed quite the Ambassador for the IKCA. He does his orgaization proud.

 

[marshallbd]

Anyone have any experience with this style? The current Black Belt has an article on it as well as a large ad for its distance learning program. The ad definitely seems to be pushing the idea that one can learn this "complex" art, based on Chin-na, by video. (See http://www.victorioushands.com/ for more info.) I am of course somewhat suspect.

Apparently the founder is Dr. Christian Harfouche, who considers the art "an evangelistic tool" of his International Christian Karate Association.

Black Belt seems to be getting worse and worse about tie-ins between its ads and the articles. This article and the one for ICKA Kenpo (I think it's a coincidence that the acronyms are the same), also strongly pushing video testing and hailing its many benefits, seemed guilty of that. The Kenpo article, on Chuck Sullivan and Vic LeRoux, included highlighted boxes on how great video learning and testing are. This is in the article not the ad. (See http://www.karateconnection.com/ for more info.) I suspect not everyone would even agree with their definition of the art:



It makes it sound as if Ed Parker only brought the art here and publicized it, as Robert Trias did. Mr. Trias made great contributions and I don't mean to slight them, but Mr. Parker modified and codified what he was taught, hence the name change.

I wonder if anyone has done a difinitive study on the differences between using a video curriculum and dojo study.

Maybe one of you seniors out there could video tape the lessons to say orange belt and do a controlled study with say 10-20 people. Half would train using the video only and half would train with a qualified sifu/sensei. Both groups would devote the same amount of time per session/week and at the end of a realistic time frame (Say 3 months or so) all individuals would test in front of the instructor.

Using a format like that, what would the major differences be? Do you think that a study of this sort would prove that video training is more effective than the general consensus belives or would it prove the opposite. I am far from being qualified to instruct anyone in any form of a martial arts or I would do this study myself.

Even better would be to run the study for a full year and see which group is the more proficient Martial artists and why. Will one group be better in one area and not another? I for one would love to read about the results of such a study.....how about you?

 

[Enson]

I wonder if anyone has done a difinitive study on the differences between using a video curriculum and dojo study.

Maybe one of you seniors out there could video tape the lessons to say orange belt and do a controlled study with say 10-20 people. Half would train using the video only and half would train with a qualified sifu/sensei. Both groups would devote the same amount of time per session/week and at the end of a realistic time frame (Say 3 months or so) all individuals would test in front of the instructor.

Using a format like that, what would the major differences be? Do you think that a study of this sort would prove that video training is more effective than the general consensus belives or would it prove the opposite. I am far from being qualified to instruct anyone in any form of a martial arts or I would do this study myself.

Even better would be to run the study for a full year and see which group is the more proficient Martial artists and why. Will one group be better in one area and not another? I for one would love to read about the results of such a study.....how about you?

there was a study done in one of the black belt magazines. it was one of last years mags which was quite informative.
(i think this is what happened) they tested 3 people. 3 people that had no ma experience were put to the test. one of them went to go study under an instructor. the other 2 did video study. they both had like a week or two to study the techniques. then they tested all three. the moves were tested on the instructor who could not give any advise to the 2 video students. the results were the same. there was no apparent difference in the 3. they said that if it was a quality video course that actually took you through the steps you could learn the same as if you were in a dojo. in fact some might even do better because they wouldn't be held back by having to wait for the rest of the student to be ready to test. or have to wait to go train at the dojo. they did say that one who needs motivation from others should defentily look into a regular dojo.
they also made a good point saying that people used to war and fight for the secret scrolls of a certain style. (master's scrolls) now that we have media where you can see the moves. slow them down. email, call, even here the instructor speak to you one on one... not like a regular dojo were you might never train with the instructor till you are higher up in ranking.
i don't remember exactly which mag it was but maybe someone else remembers it. for the picture it had some guy in a blue gi watching a t.v. hitting a "bob".
this is what i remember of the article. i had never thought of video being effective till i read it.
peace

 

[marshallbd]

there was a study done in one of the black belt magazines. it was one of last years mags which was quite informative.
(i think this is what happened) they tested 3 people. 3 people that had no ma experience were put to the test. one of them went to go study under an instructor. the other 2 did video study. they both had like a week or two to study the techniques. then they tested all three. the moves were tested on the instructor who could not give any advise to the 2 video students. the results were the same. there was no apparent difference in the 3. they said that if it was a quality video course that actually took you through the steps you could learn the same as if you were in a dojo. in fact some might even do better because they wouldn't be held back by having to wait for the rest of the student to be ready to test. or have to wait to go train at the dojo. they did say that one who needs motivation from others should defentily look into a regular dojo.
they also made a good point saying that people used to war and fight for the secret scrolls of a certain style. (master's scrolls) now that we have media where you can see the moves. slow them down. email, call, even here the instructor speak to you one on one... not like a regular dojo were you might never train with the instructor till you are higher up in ranking.
i don't remember exactly which mag it was but maybe someone else remembers it. for the picture it had some guy in a blue gi watching a t.v. hitting a "bob".
this is what i remember of the article. i had never thought of video being effective till i read it.
peace

Yeah, I remember reading about that as well, I was thinking of a study with many more people and more time and more material to learn, I believe the study you quoted only had basic punches blocks and kicks, no techniques or forms or anything of that nature. Thanks for your reply.

Beau

 

[bdparsons]

Here is a portion on IKCA Orange Belt that I added to a recent newsletter. I hope you enjoy.

IKCA Orange Belt Self Defense Techinques​

[/size]Thunder & Lighting ( Left Punch Defense- Inside)

• Stepping into a cat stance with left foot flat and balanced on the ball of right foot execute an outward block with right hand with palm facing opponent
• Second do a snap kick with right foot to the groin
• Third movement is to plant the right foot into a right netural bow
• While planting the foot torque your hips counter clockwise while executing a straight punch to the head of the opponent

Escaping Ram ( Rear Bear Hug Defense - Arms pinned)

• The first movement to do is to grab the hands holding you across the chest. "Hands go where the pain is!" by pinning them to your chest with your hands
• Second movement is a rear head butt to the attackers face
• Third Movement is to drop your weight into a horse stance while forcing your buttocks into the groin or stomach area of the attacker
• Fourth movement is to turn and look where your opponent is and then move your left foot forward for balance and then execute a rear chicken kick or rear thrust kick to push opponent away
• Fifth movement is to bring right foot past your left foot and turn to face your attacker after moving one step forward.

Returning Serpent ( Right straight punch defense - inside)

• While stepping into a right bow stance execute a right inward block
• Second is a outside checking movement to the forearm of opponent with left hand
• Third movement is a circular backfist off the forearm to the face or neck with the right hand
• Fourth movement is with the left hand do a straight punch to the ribs of the opponent while bringing right hand to check any attack to the your face or neck.
• Fifth movement is a second backfist from the right hand into the face and neck region

.
Thrusting Release ( Front Bear Hug Defense - Arms pinned )

• First movement is a head butt to the attackers face
• Second movement is a double open palm heel strike (Right and Left Hands) to the ribs while step backwards with right leg into a left forward bow stance
• Third Movement is a front snap kick to the groin area.

Deflecting Thunder ( Right Ball Kick Defense - inside)

• First movement is to execute a downward block to the the left side with the left hand
• Second movement is to execute a snap kick into the groin area of your opponent
• Third movement an elbow strike with right elbow to the head of the opponent after being bent over by the kick

Beheading the Dragon ( Left straight Punch Defense - outside)

• In this movement the key is to check the left arm after the block and at the same time blocking the possible kick of the left leg by driving downward into the knee with your right knee pushing from the outside of the knee.
• Step One inside block with the right hand while going into a right netural bow stance, left hand protecting your face.
• Step Two bring left hand down across attackers arm pushing downward and away from you at the same time bring right fist across the ribs of the attacker ie striking the Ribs and bring the fist upwards besides your head.
• Meanwhile checking any attack from left leg while hands are moving bring right leg into left knee with your right knee driving knee inward towards the ground.
• After right fist is by your head grabbing the left wrist pulling attacker towards floor deliver a strike to the back of the neck. Going for the KO.

Sincerely,
Mark E. Weiser

It should be noted that there are numerous errors present in Mr. Weiser's descriptions of these techniques. Mr. Weiser, please refrain from attempting to share the IKCA curriculum unless or until you are completely familiar with the material. In your description there are omitted or added moves/strikes (omitted means you won't get the body reaction you need, added means the move just isn't there and there is a reason it isn't there), no mention of stance changes (resulting in a significant decrease in power), incorrect checking methods (meaning you're giving your opponent an opportunity to read your movements), no mention of clock positions (used to teach proper positioning in relation to the opponent). These are just a few things to consider.

Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute

 

[Mark Weiser]

Even though I am not an "expert" by any means the purpose of this was to share information not to teach. To teach from this would be laughable of to learn the "correct form or power" from my list is also inconvicable. The idea was to give a familiarization to some IKCA movements.

I have never claimed to a spokesperson for the IKCA or claim to be a black belt in the IKCA as well.

Just one MA trying his best to share info and insights in his art. It is no different that sitting around the table and describing your art to others. I am Human and I do make mistakes I reread this and I see some things I left out and reveiwing the list.

So I quess outside the Dojo I can not talk about the IKCA so I will do so Mr. Parson's

Thank you

 

[bdparsons]

So I quess outside the Dojo I can not talk about the IKCA so I will do so Mr. Parson's

Mr. Weiser,

This is America, you can talk about whatever you like. However, if you choose to speak about the IKCA in a public forum, I reserve the right to point out incorrect information.

BTW, no apostrophe in Parsons.

Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute

 

[Shogun]

Mr. Hartfouche is is the oct issue of BB magazine. The mag is one of the best I have seen in a long time. it is however, similar to feb's issue. Dr. Hartfouche looks very credible, and his videos might be good.



I commend him on the fact that he reccomends already having several years exp. before starting his program.

 

[RRouuselot]

Anyone have any experience with this style? The current Black Belt has an article on it as well as a large ad for its distance learning program. The ad definitely seems to be pushing the idea that one can learn this "complex" art, based on Chin-na, by video. (See http://www.victorioushands.com/ for more info.) I am of course somewhat suspect.

Apparently the founder is Dr. Christian Harfouche, who considers the art "an evangelistic tool" of his International Christian Karate Association.

Black Belt seems to be getting worse and worse about tie-ins between its ads and the articles. This article and the one for ICKA Kenpo (I think it's a coincidence that the acronyms are the same), also strongly pushing video testing and hailing its many benefits, seemed guilty of that. The Kenpo article, on Chuck Sullivan and Vic LeRoux, included highlighted boxes on how great video learning and testing are. This is in the article not the ad. (See http://www.karateconnection.com/ for more info.) I suspect not everyone would even agree with their definition of the art:



It makes it sound as if Ed Parker only brought the art here and publicized it, as Robert Trias did. Mr. Trias made great contributions and I don't mean to slight them, but Mr. Parker modified and codified what he was taught, hence the name change.

1) I ALWAYS have a problem with people that: advertise "distance learning" in the MAs, and that recognize rank without actually meeting the person face to face, advertise themselves as a "Christian" MA group of some sort, MA people that use "Dr.", claim rank in MAs with bogus sounding names that are based on XXXXXX.....

2) BlackBelt is a crap magazine that caters to "white survivalist trash" types, imature teenagers with low selfesteem that think they can be Bruce Lee by ordering the crap from the adverts in BB, and just generally dumb people that have no idea what MAs are really about.

 

[Hand Sword]

I have something to add to this thread that might add to this credibility thing. Mind you, I don't know him and I didn't have any thoughts about him.

I got a phone call this evening (during the Sox/ Yanks game--Imagine that!) from Florida. It was an instructor from Grand Master Harfouche. He said that I was "referred" to the Grand Master as a serious martial artist that he should contact. When I asked who referred me, he didn't know. All he knew was he was supposed to call me. ( Funny, he called my 62 yr. old, disabled mother yesterday, saying the same thing!) He told me that they wanted to recruit me for their schools and get me in on the ground floor. He said that they were in the beginning process of Mixed Martial Arts, and their prolification, being "pioneers", although no one entered those kind of contests or tournaments yet. He went on and on about the credentials of this "Grand Master", and how many hall of fames he's in, and How I should get on board, as I have been specifically selected by the "Grand Master".

To me this is martial marketing run amuck! I hate commercialization of the arts, and now telemarketing of it? Has anybody else got a call from this guy?

 

[pstarr]

If someone is advertising that you can get a black belt via videos...this is exactly the kind of thing that we should raise h*ll about - write to Black Belt and complain about this kind of nonsense.

If we don't, it'll only get worse.

 

[stone_dragone]

I have something to add to this thread that might add to this credibility thing. Mind you, I don't know him and I didn't have any thoughts about him.

I got a phone call this evening (during the Sox/ Yanks game--Imagine that!) from Florida. It was an instructor from Grand Master Harfouche. He said that I was "referred" to the Grand Master as a serious martial artist that he should contact. When I asked who referred me, he didn't know. All he knew was he was supposed to call me. ( Funny, he called my 62 yr. old, disabled mother yesterday, saying the same thing!) He told me that they wanted to recruit me for their schools and get me in on the ground floor. He said that they were in the beginning process of Mixed Martial Arts, and their prolification, being "pioneers", although no one entered those kind of contests or tournaments yet. He went on and on about the credentials of this "Grand Master", and how many hall of fames he's in, and How I should get on board, as I have been specifically selected by the "Grand Master".

To me this is martial marketing run amuck! I hate commercialization of the arts, and now telemarketing of it? Has anybody else got a call from this guy?

I recieved a similar call a short while back... I thought it was odd at that time, too. Do you have a subscription to Black Belt, too? There might be a connection.

While at a first glance, I think that the information presented in his series may be valid and useful, the cost of the set approaches ridiculous. It'd be better spent on the multi-target punching bag from another thread!

 

[stone_dragone]

As for the IKCA kenpo system (not the ICKA...) I am a video student of theirs. I have examined the tapes and the material and found it to be of good quality (even if GM LeRoux's 'fro is a little dated ) from a martial arts point of view. I can't speak for the kenpo community, since this is my only exposure to the art.

I have participated in the video testing program and found it, too, to be valid and useful. The feedback that I got back was extremely detailed (down to the precise direction of my toes in a specific maneuver in a particular technique). In the segments following the test review, you recieve the very detailed and personalized feedback and what they call "bonus" material which is much deeper instruction in specific areas of they system. I have only completed two tests to date (Iraq has slowed me down a bit) but the level of instruction makes me look forward to continuing.

It is not for everybody.

Let me say that again. IT IS NOT FOR EVERYBODY.

But if you can think out side the box and be self-motivated, then it is the next best thing to having a live instructor.

I'll say that again...NEXT BEST THING TO HAVING AN INSTRUCTOR.

The debate often goes from "Live instructors are better, but video has merit" to "Video doesn't work" to "Video students suck!" rather quickly.

Yes, a live instructor is better (in my opinion) but video has certain merit as well. In my experience, the IKCA training system works.

Ok, flame shields up. BBQ away...