Understanding the ethics of ranking up

[Touch Of Death]

My teacher deals with it, by not dealing with it. While he is the head of his own organization, he no longer seeks out rank. It is what it is, and you can stay, or go. You heard of, "No Capes!"?, he wears, "No Bricks!", and it goes just fine. We call him, Skip, which, so far, has not offended any Asian sensibilities. To others, he is a professor, which means one who professes.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

As others have pointed out, there's absolutely nothing stopping you from promoting yourself.
But let's be honest here. You're not "inventing" or "creating" anything. You have training in A. Maybe in B as well. And at most you're combining them.
To me, the obvious thing is to say "I have X rank in A and Y rank in B and I teach both together." And earn your promotions from a legitimate source within A and B.

That's not always feasible. In some cases, ranking in an association can only be acquired by teaching within that association. In those cases, there's no legitimate way to receive higher rank in that style, unless there's another association without that same requirement. If the material being taught doesn't match the teaching/testing curriculum of an association (even if it is essentially the same art) it is unlikely that association would grant rank.

I do tend to agree that rank of a system founder is irrelevant within the system. It can be useful as a marketing tool (since some customers have some idea what the stripes mean), and can have some meaning to those in related systems (when visiting other schools, etc. - my reason for using a rank). To me, the best answer - if you feel the need for rank - is to use a ranking system similar to the primary one you trained under. Start with a rank that is equivalent to what you had in your prior system, and only rank yourself up as you fulfill the requirements you'd expect from students attaining that rank.

That, or just figure out what a rankless founder's belt/sash should be (if you use such) and tie it on.

 

[Flying Crane]

Belt ranks are silly, really. My honest opinion: they ought to be scaled back tremendously, or just done away with.

In the end, people need to be able to stand on their own two feet with their training and if they choose to teach. If you are not mentally and emotionally strong enough to do that, then you should not teach. And I believe the belt ranking system goes a long way to discourage and undermine just that.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Belt ranks are silly, really. My honest opinion: they ought to be scaled back tremendously, or just done away with.

In the end, people need to be able to stand on their own two feet with their training and if they choose to teach. If you are not mentally and emotionally strong enough to do that, then you should not teach. And I believe the belt ranking system goes a long way to discourage and undermine just that.

I don't disagree, but that's a lot of wishful thinking. I think you and I both know that this will never happen. Belt mills exist and always will. There are no objective standards, no licensing bodies, and no one will likely ever agree to a universal standard of belt or no-belt or whatever.

The situation we have is the situation we have. Whatever people want to call themselves, whatever belt they want to wear, they do. All we as legitimate martial artists can do is to keep on doing things as we believe them to be correct.

 

[Flying Crane]

I don't disagree, but that's a lot of wishful thinking. I think you and I both know that this will never happen. Belt mills exist and always will. There are no objective standards, no licensing bodies, and no one will likely ever agree to a universal standard of belt or no-belt or whatever.

The situation we have is the situation we have. Whatever people want to call themselves, whatever belt they want to wear, they do. All we as legitimate martial artists can do is to keep on doing things as we believe them to be correct.

Yes, of course.

However, I still feel it's worth mentioning these alternate ideas, to give people something to think about. Some people just might make their own decisions about some of these issues, and that could be a good thing. Or a bad thing. It all depends.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Belt ranks are silly, really. My honest opinion: they ought to be scaled back tremendously, or just done away with.

In the end, people need to be able to stand on their own two feet with their training and if they choose to teach. If you are not mentally and emotionally strong enough to do that, then you should not teach. And I believe the belt ranking system goes a long way to discourage and undermine just that.

In practice, I agree. In principle, belt ranks actually serve a purpose within the school. I remember in my years of training at a larger school, occasionally working with someone I hadn't seen in months, and instantly knowing (because of their belt) which techniques they were likely to have. It saved time and made putting groups together much easier. The issue with them between systems is getting anyone to agree on what each rank really means. Many of us have certain expectations of what "black belt" should mean (a level of competence and understanding), but even that is tenuous. I know one association (actually 3, but the others are derivative) that doesn't award a black belt (shodan) until the individual is ready to teach - they actually have to complete at least a year of student teaching to get it. In another style, they don't let you teach until around 4th degree (yondan).

But still, it helps inside the school. Even for students, what to work on next can be easily ordered by what's tested next, which is the same as student ranking, whether you use belts and ranks or not. I came very close to removing ranks when I started codifying my new curriculum, and ended up keeping them primarily for this last reason. They bug me, but I find them useful, so I use them.

 

[kuniggety]

The funny thing about belt ranking and one organization being more legitimate than others, yadda yadda, is that every martial art with a belt system that goes up to a 10th Dan started by them promoting themself to that rank. It's the chicken or the egg question. Someone has to be the chicken (higher rank) to lay the egg (promote someone to random Dan rank). But how did the first chicken come around with no chicken before it to lay the egg?

That all being said. They have their usefulness within that organization, just not outside of it. Using even a non-martial arts analogy is that as a senior non-commissioned officer (i.e. Enlisted) in the US military, I have more faith, trust, and authority entrusted in me than junior officers (commissioned) in many other countries' militaries even though officers (even the lowest officer rank) outrank all enlisted ranks. But what each of those ranks really means is only applicable to that country (and sometimes even service as there can be a disparity between services).

 

[Azulx]

I do tend to agree that rank of a system founder is irrelevant within the system. It can be useful as a marketing tool (since some customers have some idea what the stripes mean), and can have some meaning to those in related systems (when visiting other schools, etc. - my reason for using a rank). To me, the best answer - if you feel the need for rank - is to use a ranking system similar to the primary one you trained under. Start with a rank that is equivalent to what you had in your prior system, and only rank yourself up as you fulfill the requirements you'd expect from students attaining that rank.

gpseymour - Thank you very much for your answer. I appreciate everyone taking the time to answer my questions, but I have found yours to be the closest one to home. My instructor was close to fourth dan at his old school. He had a falling out with the Master Instructor over financial reasons. Therefore he was no longer allowed to test.My instructor was the Head Instructor when the Master Instructor was not there, and had at least 4 years experience with running martial arts schools. After the falling, he became the head instructor at a different school under his own system. Here is were he felt the need to test since he was already 3 years into a different school and was suppose to test for 4th dan almost 4 years ago. Since he was no longer affiliated with the old organization; he asked the owner of the new school a 6th dan in a different art , to give him an honorary test. I thought this was ethical, considering the situations that happened beyond his control. I just wanted to see what others opinions were and I found yours to be the best.

 

[Flying Crane]

Personally, if I was the 6th Dan you reference, I would not be comfortable giving him a test. I cannot test him in my system which he has not trained, nor can I text him in his system which I have not trained. Unless the systems are just different lineages of the same system and a crossover/conversion was done.

For some things there is simply no fix.

 

[Azulx]

Personally, if I was the 6th Dan you reference, I would not be comfortable giving him a test. I cannot test him in my system which he has not trained, nor can I text him in his system which I have not trained. Unless the systems are just different lineages of the same system and a crossover/conversion was done.

For some things there is simply no fix.

Flying Crane, I appreciate your reply, and thank you for your opinion. I understand where you are coming from. Honestly the test was more of a formality than anything. He was the owner of the school and in the long run , having a higher ranked head instructor in the additional art the school taught, was beneficial for the school.Plus, our instructor wanted to rank up, which was a win-win.Especially, since he didn't want to just rank himself up. Like you said , there is no easy fix, it is a complicated situation, that not every instructor faces. There is no "right" way to go about it. I just wanted others' opinions, not others' approvals.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Flying Crane, I appreciate your reply, and thank you for your opinion. I understand where you are coming from. Honestly the test was more of a formality than anything. He was the owner of the school and in the long run , having a higher ranked head instructor in the additional art the school taught, was beneficial for the school.Plus, our instructor wanted to rank up, which was a win-win.Especially, since he didn't want to just rank himself up. Like you said , there is no easy fix, it is a complicated situation, that not every instructor faces. There is no "right" way to go about it. I just wanted others' opinions, not others' approvals.

Well, yes, he did in fact just "rank himself up" from what you're describing.
He paid someone to sign a certificate that says he has XXX knowledge, when that person isn't qualified to make that determination.
An "honorary test" is an oxymoron. There's no such thing. Honorary rank is not based on knowledge or ability. Earned rank is (at least theoretically, since we can all show exceptions...). A test can only be given by someone with the knowledge being tested.
I can test someone's knowledge of TKD MDK. I can test their knowledge of human Anatomy & Physiology. I can test someones knowledge of ACLS, PALS, TNCC and lots of other medical stuff. I can test someones knowledge of recreational and technical SCUBA diving standards.
I cannot test someone who practices (for example) Goju Ryu. I am not qualified.

If it makes your instructor feel better to perform in front of someone untrained in your system, that's fine. But in reality, he self promoted.
And that's fine. As others have said, the founders of most arts self promoted.
I personally prefer the honesty of self promotion over a "test" given by an unqualified examiner. You might as well just write to Ashida Kim or the Council of Sokes and do it through the mail.

 

[Azulx]

He paid someone to sign a certificate that says he has XXX knowledge, when that person isn't qualified to make that determination.

He did not pay him, he just asked him if he would witness the test. You are correct that the person wasn't qualified to administer the test. In the end , if he would not have had falling out, there's no doubt he would have have passed the dan exam. Politics and business sometimes ruin the merit of martial arts. I have had discussions with my instructor about the situation, it's not because it boosts his ego to test in front of someone who knows nothing. He was just a Master in a style of martial arts, and he felt that he would be understanding and proctor the test.

He could of done what many head instructors do and just given himself 9 degrees, but he just wanted the degree that he would have been, if he wasn't screwed over. My instructor is 60 years old, 60 years is the minimum age for a 9th dan in the system he was in. It would be believable that a 60 year old is a ninth degree. He didn't want to do that he just wanted to test for the degree he was screwed out of.

Not everyone is after the Title Master or Nine Degrees. Things happen out of people's control. he doesn't even make us call him master. Just Mr. and his last name.There are associations that for a nice $500.00 check will give you a pretty certificate and a Dan from and international organization. That's great, and all, but in the end he would be the same martial artist and the only difference would be that he is now $500.00 more broke, than he was before. It came down to the fact that he worked hard ran a man's school and, in the end that man who he had worked so hard for, screwed him over out of testing and money. He has dedicated the majority of the last 15 years of his life to bettering the lives of his students and progressing himself as a martial artists. He just asked for someone who had done the same thing to witness the test.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Personally, if I was the 6th Dan you reference, I would not be comfortable giving him a test. I cannot test him in my system which he has not trained, nor can I text him in his system which I have not trained. Unless the systems are just different lineages of the same system and a crossover/conversion was done.

For some things there is simply no fix.

I'd tend to agree with this. If someone from the mainline of my art (Nihon Goshin Aikido) came to me to test even for a student rank, I could test them based upon the mainline curriculum (which I came up through). However, if someone came to me from a related art - say, Ueshiba's Aikido - I wouldn't be able to test them in any meaningful way. I would, however, have a discussion similar to this one with them, possibly suggesting they grade themselves as they would anyone else (since ranks appear reasonably consistent and meaningful across the mainline of Ueshiba's Aikido).

-Gerry

 

[Flying Crane]

He did not pay him, he just asked him if he would witness the test. You are correct that the person wasn't qualified to administer the test. In the end , if he would not have had falling out, there's no doubt he would have have passed the dan exam. Politics and business sometimes ruin the merit of martial arts. I have had discussions with my instructor about the situation, it's not because it boosts his ego to test in front of someone who knows nothing. He was just a Master in a style of martial arts, and he felt that he would be understanding and proctor the test.

He could of done what many head instructors do and just given himself 9 degrees, but he just wanted the degree that he would have been, if he wasn't screwed over. My instructor is 60 years old, 60 years is the minimum age for a 9th dan in the system he was in. It would be believable that a 60 year old is a ninth degree. He didn't want to do that he just wanted to test for the degree he was screwed out of.

Not everyone is after the Title Master or Nine Degrees. Things happen out of people's control. he doesn't even make us call him master. Just Mr. and his last name.There are associations that for a nice $500.00 check will give you a pretty certificate and a Dan from and international organization. That's great, and all, but in the end he would be the same martial artist and the only difference would be that he is now $500.00 more broke, than he was before. It came down to the fact that he worked hard ran a man's school and, in the end that man who he had worked so hard for, screwed him over out of testing and money. He has dedicated the majority of the last 15 years of his life to bettering the lives of his students and progressing himself as a martial artists. He just asked for someone who had done the same thing to witness the test.

Sounds like he was trying to find a solution to a messy and unfortunate situation. I get it. Personally I'm not a fan of the solution, but I get it. And as you said, sometimes the politics and business ruin the martial arts. This is a good example of a situation created by politics and business, without a clean solution.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Flying Crane, I appreciate your reply, and thank you for your opinion. I understand where you are coming from. Honestly the test was more of a formality than anything. He was the owner of the school and in the long run , having a higher ranked head instructor in the additional art the school taught, was beneficial for the school.Plus, our instructor wanted to rank up, which was a win-win.Especially, since he didn't want to just rank himself up. Like you said , there is no easy fix, it is a complicated situation, that not every instructor faces. There is no "right" way to go about it. I just wanted others' opinions, not others' approvals.

Too late; I approve.

 

[lklawson]

He did not pay him, he just asked him if he would witness the test. You are correct that the person wasn't qualified to administer the test. In the end , if he would not have had falling out, there's no doubt he would have have passed the dan exam. Politics and business sometimes ruin the merit of martial arts. I have had discussions with my instructor about the situation, it's not because it boosts his ego to test in front of someone who knows nothing. He was just a Master in a style of martial arts, and he felt that he would be understanding and proctor the test.

He could of done what many head instructors do and just given himself 9 degrees, but he just wanted the degree that he would have been, if he wasn't screwed over. My instructor is 60 years old, 60 years is the minimum age for a 9th dan in the system he was in. It would be believable that a 60 year old is a ninth degree. He didn't want to do that he just wanted to test for the degree he was screwed out of.

Not everyone is after the Title Master or Nine Degrees. Things happen out of people's control. he doesn't even make us call him master. Just Mr. and his last name.There are associations that for a nice $500.00 check will give you a pretty certificate and a Dan from and international organization. That's great, and all, but in the end he would be the same martial artist and the only difference would be that he is now $500.00 more broke, than he was before. It came down to the fact that he worked hard ran a man's school and, in the end that man who he had worked so hard for, screwed him over out of testing and money. He has dedicated the majority of the last 15 years of his life to bettering the lives of his students and progressing himself as a martial artists. He just asked for someone who had done the same thing to witness the test.

In the old days, anyone could claim to be a Master of fighting. Of course, they might have to face a challenge match or duel.

George Silver has some very unkind words to write about "supposed masters" from continental Europe teaching in England with their un-English sissy little rapiers. One of the more famous, Rocco Bonetti (made famous in the modern context by a reference from the cult-classic "The Princess Bride") was a Master of Italian Rapier, teaching in London. Apparently unpopular with the English Fencing Masters, who taught the English weapons of Broadsword &tc., because he was taking the rich students away from them, Bonetti had at least one duel, which he lost. It appears that Bonetti pissed off a river boatman. Bonetti drew his rapier and was clocked with an oar for his trouble. Silver himself challenged the Italian Rapier Master named Saviolo to a duel, quite publicly, issuing "handbills" (a common convention at the time) and having one hand delivered to Saviolo, who decided to ignore it and was quickly branded a coward.

So, historically, if you think you can fight, call yourself a Master then open a school, teach private lessons, or both. But just be prepared for someone to check and see if you actually know what you're talking about. Historically speaking, this could sometimes be friendly and sometimes not.

You know what? Same thing still applies today. Grapplers are particularly eager to check out anyone who claims to teach grappling. Sometimes they'll just drop in and watch a class or two. If the instructor knows what he's doing, they'll nod and leave, maybe strike up a conversation and make a contact. If the instructor is teaching BS, they'll spread the word. Sometimes, the instructor so questioned will start talking smack. Usually some sort of more-or-less civilized challenge match will ensue. Physical injuries are rare but reputations and students can be gained or lost.

So just tell your guy to call himself a "Master" and let it ride from there. Eventually someone who is a Master will drop in and watch some of his stuff. If your guy doesn't know his stuff, word will spread. The worst that can happen, realistically, is your guy's reputation as a martial artist will be trashed.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Buka]

Martial Arts might have been more interesting had they chosen suspenders instead of belts. I'm sure the same nonsense would have gone on concerning rank, but it would have probably been more fun.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

So just tell your guy to call himself a "Master" and let it ride from there. Eventually someone who is a Master will drop in and watch some of his stuff. If your guy doesn't know his stuff, word will spread. The worst that can happen, realistically, is your guy's reputation as a martial artist will be trashed.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Realistically, I don't think that happens anymore. 'Dojo Challenges' are a thing of the past, and in some cases, that's a good thing. Some of the stuff I've read about the 'old days' are quite scary. I for one have no plans to invade any dojos, challenge any students or instructors, or have fights in the parking lots over 'our styles differ, we must fight'. Too old for that nonsense.

The actual, legitimate, schools are few and far between, and tend not to partake in spreading rumors or attacking other schools, even if it is quite well understood that what they teach is somewhat lacking.

The few who know the difference between a legitimate good reputation and a prancing pack of poseurs are generally already fully engaged with a 'real' school and not in need of elucidation.

It is unfortunate, but we live in a world where style beats substance for the majority of citizens. It is the look of excellence, not actual excellence, that impresses many.

 

[Tez3]

Martial Arts might have been more interesting had they chosen suspenders instead of belts. I'm sure the same nonsense would have gone on concerning rank, but it would have probably been more fun.

Even more interesting if you consider what 'suspender's are in the UK!

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Martial Arts might have been more interesting had they chosen suspenders instead of belts. I'm sure the same nonsense would have gone on concerning rank, but it would have probably been more fun.

I have often thought of 'belts' as being somewhat analogous to the awards and ribbons worn by the military, as well as the ranks worn on the sleeves of the enlisted ranks.

Napoleon noted that men would fight much more fiercely when given a bit of colored ribbon to wear upon their chests. I have seen many students beam with pride and joy when awarded a new color belt. Mostly among the children, true, but it does seem to keep many of them motivated to attend and to work hard.