Understanding the ethics of ranking up

[Tony Dismukes]

gpseymour - Thank you very much for your answer. I appreciate everyone taking the time to answer my questions, but I have found yours to be the closest one to home. My instructor was close to fourth dan at his old school. He had a falling out with the Master Instructor over financial reasons. Therefore he was no longer allowed to test.My instructor was the Head Instructor when the Master Instructor was not there, and had at least 4 years experience with running martial arts schools. After the falling, he became the head instructor at a different school under his own system. Here is were he felt the need to test since he was already 3 years into a different school and was suppose to test for 4th dan almost 4 years ago. Since he was no longer affiliated with the old organization; he asked the owner of the new school a 6th dan in a different art , to give him an honorary test. I thought this was ethical, considering the situations that happened beyond his control. I just wanted to see what others opinions were and I found yours to be the best.

One thing I'm not really clear on from your account. Did your instructor create a new art of his own that he is now teaching or is he still teaching the same thing that he was trained in, just without the backing of an organization and senior instructor?

 

[Azulx]

One thing I'm not really clear on from your account. Did your instructor create a new art of his own that he is now teaching or is he still teaching the same thing that he was trained in, just without the backing of an organization and senior instructor?

It is the same art in essence (TKD), but an entirely different curriculum and philosophy of teaching from his first school. So our chambers,but our forms and the way we spar are different from the original school.

 

[JR 137]

My old teacher left the organization he taught in and became independent. He started working out regularly with a teacher in a similar style of karate. That teacher promoted him after a few years.

Since then, there's a group of independent karate teachers who started working out together. Several of them trained together when affiliated with the same system, and they brought in friends of theirs. They slowly formed their own organization that puts on seminars for each other's students, and formed a panel for ranking purposes. Their rank certificates simply say karate (no specific style of karate). They have minimum time in grade requirements, they have to practice and teach traditionally accepted Japanese and/or Okinawan kata, have to attend a set number of seminars per time period, and teach a set number of seminars per time period. Their panel looks at all of this, and other things and has to have a unanimous vote to promote a member.

Not a bad way of doing things if you ask me. It's only as good as the panel though. Knowing several of the members and knowing of a few more, I think they're legit. If I were to go independent (I'm not a teacher), I'd probably go that route.

 

[Steve]

Belt ranks are silly, really. My honest opinion: they ought to be scaled back tremendously, or just done away with.

In the end, people need to be able to stand on their own two feet with their training and if they choose to teach. If you are not mentally and emotionally strong enough to do that, then you should not teach. And I believe the belt ranking system goes a long way to discourage and undermine just that.

They're very important in a competitive martial art, such as bjj or tkd.

 

[Steve]

I have often thought of 'belts' as being somewhat analogous to the awards and ribbons worn by the military, as well as the ranks worn on the sleeves of the enlisted ranks.

Napoleon noted that men would fight much more fiercely when given a bit of colored ribbon to wear upon their chests. I have seen many students beam with pride and joy when awarded a new color belt. Mostly among the children, true, but it does seem to keep many of them motivated to attend and to work hard.

Belts in bjj, at least, are more analogous to stripes in the military. Blue belt is like an E-3, purple is E-4/E-5, brown is an E-6/E-7 and a black belt is a chief.

The rank in bjj tend to be a reflection of the experience and respect afforded to the person wearing it, not the source of the respect.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

My old teacher left the organization he taught in and became independent. He started working out regularly with a teacher in a similar style of karate. That teacher promoted him after a few years.

Since then, there's a group of independent karate teachers who started working out together. Several of them trained together when affiliated with the same system, and they brought in friends of theirs. They slowly formed their own organization that puts on seminars for each other's students, and formed a panel for ranking purposes. Their rank certificates simply say karate (no specific style of karate). They have minimum time in grade requirements, they have to practice and teach traditionally accepted Japanese and/or Okinawan kata, have to attend a set number of seminars per time period, and teach a set number of seminars per time period. Their panel looks at all of this, and other things and has to have a unanimous vote to promote a member.

Not a bad way of doing things if you ask me. It's only as good as the panel though. Knowing several of the members and knowing of a few more, I think they're legit. If I were to go independent (I'm not a teacher), I'd probably go that route.

Not me. Pretty much everything I dislike. No offense to you intended.

 

[JR 137]

Not me. Pretty much everything I dislike. No offense to you intended.

No offense taken. Why do you dislike it? Just trying to get a different perspective, not start one of the regular arguments that seem to be the norm around here. Not that I think you're one of those either.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

No offense taken. Why do you dislike it? Just trying to get a different perspective, not start one of the regular arguments that seem to be the norm around here. Not that I think you're one of those either.

Well, I kind of described it earlier, and you reinforced it. Guy has a certain level of training, but for whatever reason loses his instructor. Decides to open his own place, sans-oversight. There's my first issue. Do I understand how it could happen? Yes. Unfortunate.

Guy then gets together an association of ronin-of-sorts and agree to a curriculum, standards, and start promoting each other. And their students. There's my second problem.

You also mentioned required seminars and tournaments for promotions and that's my third problem with this. That's not martial arts, that's a business. And while I completely understand why people choose to run martial arts as a profit center, it's not for me.

Please understand that I mean no ill will, but it's contrary to what I want or why I train. My sensei has a sensei, and his sensei was the founder of our style. We have an actual lineage, and each sensei was given permission to teach by their own instructor. I see that as incredibly important.

 

[geezer]

...My sensei has a sensei, and his sensei was the founder of our style. We have an actual lineage, and each sensei was given permission to teach by their own instructor. I see that as incredibly important.

So your sensei's sensei's sensei ...his grandfather-teacher, if you will, founded his own style. So many people have done that. Well, either their own style or breakaway organization. Who has the right to do that and who doesn't? It seems pretty subjective to me.

 

[Buka]

A long time ago in a land far, far away, some guy started some kind of Martial Art training. And it was right and just.

Then, some other guy, more than likely one of the first guy's people, started to teach it a little differently as he got older and more experienced. It too, was right and just.

Extrapolate at your pleasure. Hopefully with a smile and a nod.

 

[ballen0351]

Please understand that I mean no ill will, but it's contrary to what I want or why I train. My sensei has a sensei, and his sensei was the founder of our style. We have an actual lineage, and each sensei was given permission to teach by their own instructor. I see that as incredibly important.

But your founder took limited training in two other styles and made up his own as well.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Lineage is stressed, to the students, by the schools that have it, and not so stressed by the schools that don't.

 

[JR 137]

Well, I kind of described it earlier, and you reinforced it. Guy has a certain level of training, but for whatever reason loses his instructor. Decides to open his own place, sans-oversight. There's my first issue. Do I understand how it could happen? Yes. Unfortunate.

Guy then gets together an association of ronin-of-sorts and agree to a curriculum, standards, and start promoting each other. And their students. There's my second problem.

You also mentioned required seminars and tournaments for promotions and that's my third problem with this. That's not martial arts, that's a business. And while I completely understand why people choose to run martial arts as a profit center, it's not for me.

Please understand that I mean no ill will, but it's contrary to what I want or why I train. My sensei has a sensei, and his sensei was the founder of our style. We have an actual lineage, and each sensei was given permission to teach by their own instructor. I see that as incredibly important.

Tournaments are not required. Attending seminars and teaching them are required. Professional development, if you will. They are free for them members of the board, and cost minimal to students. I went to one, and it was $40 (plus my own travel expenses). Not sure about other dojos, but we as students weren't required to attend. Strongly encouraged, as it was great experience to learn different approaches from different people.

Their group is mainly New York State and bordering states based. It's a way for independent CIs to train together, learn from one another, and exchange information. Promoting each other is probably the least of their concerns, as it doesn't happen very often.

Chuck Merriman is an advisor to their board, last I knew.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

But your founder took limited training in two other styles and made up his own as well.

With the permission of his instructors.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

So your sensei's sensei's sensei ...his grandfather-teacher, if you will, founded his own style. So many people have done that. Well, either their own style or breakaway organization. Who has the right to do that and who doesn't? It seems pretty subjective to me.

I didn't say a person hasn't the right to do it. I said doing what the OP described (which isn't quite the same thing, but I won't quibble) isn't for me. It's nothing I find attractive.

 

[Buka]

Tournaments are not required. Attending seminars and teaching them are required. Professional development, if you will. They are free for them members of the board, and cost minimal to students. I went to one, and it was $40 (plus my own travel expenses). Not sure about other dojos, but we as students weren't required to attend. Strongly encouraged, as it was great experience to learn different approaches from different people.

Their group is mainly New York State and bordering states based. It's a way for independent CIs to train together, learn from one another, and exchange information. Promoting each other is probably the least of their concerns, as it doesn't happen very often.

Chuck Merriman is an advisor to their board, last I knew.

I learned a lot from Coach Merriman back in the day. Is his boy, Chad, still training? Great kid.

 

[ballen0351]

Chad, still training? Great kid.

Yep he's a 7th Dan now

 

[JR 137]

I learned a lot from Coach Merriman back in the day. Is his boy, Chad, still training? Great kid.

I've never met Mr. Merriman.

When I started training under my former Sensei, he was with a large local organization (started by 2 former Kyokushin senseis who followed Tadashi Nakamura to Seido). They broke away from Seido for reasons unknown to me. My teacher broke away from them several years later, while I was still his student. His brief explanation was he had taught under them for 5 years and ran his own dojo for 15+ years. In that time, every issue he brought up was quickly dismissed. Every change he brought up was quickly dismissed. He followed his heart and broke away to teach what and how he thought he should teach. There users to be about 15 independently owned dojos in that organization. There's currently 2 left - the founder and his right-hand man. I'm not bashing those 2 guys at all; they're great guys, but you have to wonder about their policies if everyone is leaving. None of the people who left started things that were much different than what they were doing.

I left about 2 years after he split away from them. I got offered a graduate assistantship about 5 hours away that I couldn't turn down. After that came a career, wife and children. 15 years later when I got back into karate, my Sensei moved the dojo an hour away, and his schedule conflicts with mine. Had I been able to, I'd have gone back.

 

[Buka]

Yep he's a 7th Dan now

Great to hear. Haven't seen him in thirty years or so, but he was a great guy and a helluva fighter. I don't think he knew how to step backwards, you always knew where to find him, right in your face. I'm glad to hear he's still in the arts.

 

[Buka]

I've never met Mr. Merriman.

When I started training under my former Sensei, he was with a large local organization (started by 2 former Kyokushin senseis who followed Tadashi Nakamura to Seido). They broke away from Seido for reasons unknown to me. My teacher broke away from them several years later, while I was still his student. His brief explanation was he had taught under them for 5 years and ran his own dojo for 15+ years. In that time, every issue he brought up was quickly dismissed. Every change he brought up was quickly dismissed. He followed his heart and broke away to teach what and how he thought he should teach. There users to be about 15 independently owned dojos in that organization. There's currently 2 left - the founder and his right-hand man. I'm not bashing those 2 guys at all; they're great guys, but you have to wonder about their policies if everyone is leaving. None of the people who left started things that were much different than what they were doing.

I left about 2 years after he split away from them. I got offered a graduate assistantship about 5 hours away that I couldn't turn down. After that came a career, wife and children. 15 years later when I got back into karate, my Sensei moved the dojo an hour away, and his schedule conflicts with mine. Had I been able to, I'd have gone back.

Sorry, man, that sucks. I don't think most us appreciate how lucky we all are in having a place we love to train in within a reasonable distance. Until, of course, it's no longer there.