UFC and such...

[7starmantis]

They do, its called San Shou.

Full contact, seperated after going to the ground, sweeps and groin targets permitted. Its pretty much UFC without the focus on groundfighting.

7sm

 

[brothershaw]

I definitely need to check out some san shou matches then. And they arent wearing gloves?

 

[MJS]

Sorry Don, I disagree with you here. Realistic isn't training to fight a pumped up young buck wearing a speedo. Realistic is training to deal with a desperate drug addict who grabs your lapel and thrusts a kinfe at your guts. There's a world of difference. Granted, the MMA people do train with a good deal of contact and resistance, but any martial arts school can do this as well...it's just a matter of your personal training focus.
Mike :soapbox:

Gotta disagree with that. If thats the case, then wouldnt you think that a traditional MA would have faired a little better in past and present shows? In the first few, you saw some TMA guys, but not any more.

Mike

 

[MJS]

Aw Nuts!

Forms and working self defense with a willing partner often train realistic situations but leave out intensity and the uncertainty.

Question for ya. How can you have a realistic situation with a no intensity???? Isnt the intensity something that you're gonna want in ALL of your training? I mean, if the idea of training is to learn SD and be able to defend yourself, then certainly a partner is gonna want to give you that feel.

mike

 

[7starmantis]

Gotta disagree with that. If thats the case, then wouldnt you think that a traditional MA would have faired a little better in past and present shows? In the first few, you saw some TMA guys, but not any more.

Mike

Thats faulty logic at its best. If the "show" holds no realistic properties, then any MAist who trains in realistic situations would not fair well. Ask yourself why it is that "traditional guys" don't fair so well anymore. Is it because it had become more realistic to street fighting? Is it because is has become more sport oriented?

Simply put, to label someone traditional and asign them certain characteristics because of their label is getting harder to do.

7sm

 

[MJS]

Thats faulty logic at its best. If the "show" holds no realistic properties, then any MAist who trains in realistic situations would not fair well. Ask yourself why it is that "traditional guys" don't fair so well anymore. Is it because it had become more realistic to street fighting? Is it because is has become more sport oriented?

Simply put, to label someone traditional and asign them certain characteristics because of their label is getting harder to do.

7sm

Dude, let me explain a few things.

1- Never said that the show wasnt realistic. Sure there are rules, but its alot closer to fighting than sparring in a MA class would ever be. The fighters there are very real and I'm sure they'd be able to defend themselves on the street as well as the ring.

2- Traditional arts. Take a look at the first few UFC events and compare them to what you see today. How many TMA's do you see now? NONE.

3- Please go back and re-read my post on this thread as well as my posts on the other threads. I'm a huge fan of crosstraining, and being as realistic as possible. I think that you may have misread and misunderstood my posts here.

4- Read the post by RHD about realistic training. He said that any MA or school can train realisticly. I stated that if that was the case, then the TMA's probably would have faired a little better in the cage than they did.

Mike

 

[brothershaw]

This ties in with my original post
I think you dont see many if any tma guys in the ufc now is
1- The succesful people have found a formula that works in the ufc which is MMA
2- Many TMA ( not all ) dont train for an ongoing fight with full contact, or even moderate contact.
That is a serious thing - we train in self defense under the pretense that our first combo/technique may do the job, so alot of people dont train for stamina or the conditioning to take a serious pounding and keep coming.
So if you dont have that kind of training you may not even make it through the prelims, much less make it the Pay Per View event.
3- People also train under the pretense they want to defend themselves quickly and get out of the situation, not try to submit somebody for the referee. Which is legitimate.

 

[7starmantis]

Dude, let me explain a few things.

1- Never said that the show wasnt realistic. Sure there are rules, but its alot closer to fighting than sparring in a MA class would ever be. The fighters there are very real and I'm sure they'd be able to defend themselves on the street as well as the ring.

I'm sorry if I offended you, I didn't misunderstand your post at all, I understand what your saying, maybe I didn't present myself clearly. I wasn't responding to your comments about realism, what I was responding to was your logic that if any MA school could train with intensity then TMA would have faired better in UFC events. Thats completely unrelated. You said you disagreed with the quote from RHD saying that any MA school could train with intensity. How in the world do you support your logic that certain schools can't train with intensity? Here is your own quote:

4- Read the post by RHD about realistic training. He said that any MA or school can train realisticly. I stated that if that was the case, then the TMA's probably would have faired a little better in the cage than they did.

Thats ridiculous. Your saying some schools can't train with intensity. I think what you ment to say is that alot of schols dont train with intensity. The connection you made between MA schools not being able to train with intensity and TMA not fairing well in UFC is unsupported at best.

2- Traditional arts. Take a look at the first few UFC events and compare them to what you see today. How many TMA's do you see now? NONE.
Mike

The lines between what is "traditional" and what is "modern" are becoming blurred. Maybe you should define what you label non-traditional, or what is effective in UFC. Also, is the UFC your proving ground or courtroom for judging a MA or MAist? If so, you need to broaden your horizons a bit, the UFC is good fighters in a controled environment performing controled techniques within a controled set of techniques. Thats good and can really show the athleticism and fighting of a person, but it is no proving ground for pure life-threatening fighting.

Would you define what you call traditional and also what you call non-traditional MA or MAist?

7sm

 

[MJS]

I'm sorry if I offended you, I didn't misunderstand your post at all, I understand what your saying, maybe I didn't present myself clearly. I wasn't responding to your comments about realism, what I was responding to was your logic that if any MA school could train with intensity then TMA would have faired better in UFC events. Thats completely unrelated. You said you disagreed with the quote from RHD saying that any MA school could train with intensity. How in the world do you support your logic that certain schools can't train with intensity? Here is your own quote:
Thats ridiculous. Your saying some schools can't train with intensity. I think what you ment to say is that alot of schols dont train with intensity. The connection you made between MA schools not being able to train with intensity and TMA not fairing well in UFC is unsupported at best.

No offense taken my friend. After re reading the 2 posts, I can see where some confusion arised. Some schools that I've seen dont train with any alivenenss. For example. Rather than just stand there while attacking and let the defender do his move, the other person should be attempting to counter or give some resistance. Granted when first learning the tech. you dont want to do that, but as you progress, you want to give more and more resistance. I think that some schools are too worried about too much contact and losing a student. Why can't you train with that contact, and still have a controlled atmosphere? The MA's are a contact activity. If someone cant handle the contact, then they should not be doing the arts. Another example would be with weapons and kata. Many of the TMAs focus alot on this, which is fine, dont get me wrong. But if you want to focus on fighting, then you cant be doing kata. Instead, you need to be working bag drills, and getting in the ring.

The lines between what is "traditional" and what is "modern" are becoming blurred. Maybe you should define what you label non-traditional, or what is effective in UFC. Also, is the UFC your proving ground or courtroom for judging a MA or MAist? If so, you need to broaden your horizons a bit, the UFC is good fighters in a controled environment performing controled techniques within a controled set of techniques. Thats good and can really show the athleticism and fighting of a person, but it is no proving ground for pure life-threatening fighting.

TMA's IMO, are as follows. TKD, Kung fu, and many of the other stand up karate styles: Shotokan, Shorin Ryu, etc. Modern: BJJ, Muay Thai, Krav Maga, etc. There is a huge difference between those mentioned. Can a TKD guy fair well in the UFC? Not if they keep doing their trad. methods. The UFC/MMA events, are alot closer to what you'd see on the street than a point sparring match. As I've said before, it all depends on what YOU want to get out of the arts.

Would you define what you call traditional and also what you call non-traditional MA or MAist?

See above.

Mike

 

[7starmantis]

But if you want to focus on fighting, then you cant be doing kata. Instead, you need to be working bag drills, and getting in the ring.

I think your closing off too much with your statements. To say you can't do kata or forms if you want to focus on fighting doesn't make sense. You can work bag drills, get in the ring, and train with the most "aliveness" you can find and yet still do forms. The debate on forms is an ongoing one and I don't want to get into it here, but the mere doing of forms doesn't take your focus off fighting.

TMA's IMO, are as follows. TKD, Kung fu, and many of the other stand up karate styles: Shotokan, Shorin Ryu, etc. Modern: BJJ, Muay Thai, Krav Maga, etc. There is a huge difference between those mentioned. Can a TKD guy fair well in the UFC? Not if they keep doing their trad. methods. The UFC/MMA events, are alot closer to what you'd see on the street than a point sparring match. As I've said before, it all depends on what YOU want to get out of the arts.

Mike

So what is the seperating factor between traditional and modern? Is it stand up fighting? If so, I think some of your modrn systems would fall into trad. I assume when you say kung fu that you mean CMA. If its stand up fighting that makes a system trad then some kung fu would not fit that mold.

The reason a TKD guy wouldn't fair well in UFC is that they do not work on the techniques as applied to the rules of UFC. In pure self defense, while you go for a submission, I'm going for a nice thumb in the eye, or a knee to the groin, maybe an elbow to the back of the head. See these are all things that are forbidden in UFC. You speak of point sparring as if there is only UFC and point sparring. I've never point sparred in my life and I never will. I've also never participated in a UFC event, and I never will. I have on the other hand effectivly defended myself against attackers a few times multiple attackers on the street. You are correct that UFC is closer to "real" fighting than point sparring, but I propose that it is miles away from "real" fighting still. There are ways to train that are effective, that do not include to training of submission wins.

7sm

 

[MJS]

I think your closing off too much with your statements. To say you can't do kata or forms if you want to focus on fighting doesn't make sense. You can work bag drills, get in the ring, and train with the most "aliveness" you can find and yet still do forms. The debate on forms is an ongoing one and I don't want to get into it here, but the mere doing of forms doesn't take your focus off fighting.

There are people out there that actually think that by doing kata, it'll help them fight. That was my point. Sure you can do all that you mentioned. But please by all means, why not discuss the forms debate here? If I was going to be training for a MMA event, why the hell would I waste time doing forms, when I should be in the ring. That is that point I was making.

So what is the seperating factor between traditional and modern? Is it stand up fighting? If so, I think some of your modrn systems would fall into trad. I assume when you say kung fu that you mean CMA. If its stand up fighting that makes a system trad then some kung fu would not fit that mold.

Many styles include things from other styles. Your reality based arts, as they are called, have taken things from arts...the things that will most likely work and be the most practical, and put it all together. Look at the first UFC. Are you honestly gonna tell me that the trad. stand up guys EVER thought that they'd end up on the ground? Of course not!!! You rarely ever see a TMA doing something like grappling. Why? Cuz they dont think that they'll ever need it.

The reason a TKD guy wouldn't fair well in UFC is that they do not work on the techniques as applied to the rules of UFC. In pure self defense, while you go for a submission, I'm going for a nice thumb in the eye, or a knee to the groin, maybe an elbow to the back of the head. See these are all things that are forbidden in UFC. You speak of point sparring as if there is only UFC and point sparring. I've never point sparred in my life and I never will. I've also never participated in a UFC event, and I never will. I have on the other hand effectivly defended myself against attackers a few times multiple attackers on the street. You are correct that UFC is closer to "real" fighting than point sparring, but I propose that it is miles away from "real" fighting still. There are ways to train that are effective, that do not include to training of submission wins.

Pure SD? Ok, so while that TKD guy is doing is fancy jump spinning back kick, the grappler will be closing the distance and taking him down. What good is that kick gonna do then? People, and yourself included, seem to forget that just because they dont bite, eye gouge, etc, in the UFC, that they cant do it in a real situation. It doesnt take a brain surgeon to know how do do that. As for the types of sparring. Let me expalin to you. Depending on what school you attend, there are different rules that are allowed. I spar making contact to the head, as well as throwing leg kicks, all of which are forbidden in MANY schools. WHY? Safety. The Inst. are probably afraid to have too much contact, due to a possible loss of students. Another example. I've had the chance to watch a few TKD guys spar, and I sit there and laugh, because they are mostly throwing kicks, hardly any punches, and their hands are down! You're gonna fight like you train.

Mike

 

[7starmantis]

There are people out there that actually think that by doing kata, it'll help them fight. That was my point. Sure you can do all that you mentioned. But please by all means, why not discuss the forms debate here? If I was going to be training for a MMA event, why the hell would I waste time doing forms, when I should be in the ring. That is that point I was making.

Exactly, IF you are training for a MMA event. I train for pure self defense. The only event I train for is San Shou which allows almost everything I train in SD for. What I refering to is not training for an event, but for SD. In SD there are qualities you can receive from doing forms. There are also qualities you get from doing ground work. They don't have to be working against each other, they can work together. Visionaries like Bruce Lee saw this and used it.

You rarely ever see a TMA doing something like grappling. Why? Cuz they dont think that they'll ever need it.

I agree, but I rarely see men getting breast implants, that dosen't mean men are unable to receive breast implants. Just because alot of people do not train a certain way, doesn't mean others don't either. Be careful of grouping MAist into areas where you think you know what they do and how they train, some will surprise you.

People, and yourself included, seem to forget that just because they dont bite, eye gouge, etc, in the UFC, that they cant do it in a real situation. It doesnt take a brain surgeon to know how do do that.

Now isnt this the argument you are against? Just because trad. MAist don't do ground work doesn't mean they cant? Your contradicting yourself.

You're gonna fight like you train.

This is my point exactly! You fight how you train, so if your training for an event using only those allowed techniques you are going to fight with those techniques. You just said it yourself. Now your saying just because MMAist don't train said techniques doesn't mean they can't use them in a fight? Which way is it? I think you are losing your point, it can't be both ways.

7sm

 

[MJS]

Exactly, IF you are training for a MMA event. I train for pure self defense. The only event I train for is San Shou which allows almost everything I train in SD for. What I refering to is not training for an event, but for SD. In SD there are qualities you can receive from doing forms. There are also qualities you get from doing ground work. They don't have to be working against each other, they can work together. Visionaries like Bruce Lee saw this and used it.

But, if you want to get better at fighting, wouldnt time be better spent in the ring rather than doing kata? Maybe we're training kata differently here.

I agree, but I rarely see men getting breast implants, that dosen't mean men are unable to receive breast implants. Just because alot of people do not train a certain way, doesn't mean others don't either. Be careful of grouping MAist into areas where you think you know what they do and how they train, some will surprise you.

Just going on what I've seen alot of here.

Now isnt this the argument you are against? Just because trad. MAist don't do ground work doesn't mean they cant? Your contradicting yourself.
This is my point exactly! You fight how you train, so if your training for an event using only those allowed techniques you are going to fight with those techniques. You just said it yourself. Now your saying just because MMAist don't train said techniques doesn't mean they can't use them in a fight? Which way is it? I think you are losing your point, it can't be both ways.

Anyone can lay on the ground and think that they can defend themselves, but if you've never had any exp. in that area, you're gonna be a fish outta water. It happened to me the first time I did BJJ. My Inst. mounted me and told me to get out from under him. I tried and tried, and no matter what I did, he countered it. It was then that I became hooked on BJJ. As for the techs. used. Look at boxing and Tyson. Do you think that he can apply the same things he does in boxing in a street fight? Now, you mentioned an eye jab. I'm gonna assume you do them during practice. Do you apply them during your sparring? Paul Vunak talks about biting and eye jabs all the time and applies them during his workouts. Obviously everyone is wearing gear. Do we know the background of every MMA fighter out there? How can we assume that they dont have prior training? Now, in your training, do you put on eye protection and do those eye jabs?

Mike

 

[7starmantis]

But, if you want to get better at fighting, wouldnt time be better spent in the ring rather than doing kata? Maybe we're training kata differently here.

Your skill improving isn't contingent upon where you do your training, but on what you do in your training. Your saying training for a set event with set rules is better than doing kata, but your reasoing is that your only doing set techniques in kata. Thats contridictory. If you want to be a better fighter than you should spend more time fighting, and more time refining your techniques. I guess it is possible that we do forms differently as I've yet to see anyone else do forms like mantis people do.

As for the techs. used. Look at boxing and Tyson. Do you think that he can apply the same things he does in boxing in a street fight?

I'm sure he could and that is my point again. You do in a fight what you do in training. If you train for a specific event as you said, UFC, then you fight with those set techniques. You made my point for me.

Now, you mentioned an eye jab. I'm gonna assume you do them during practice. Do you apply them during your sparring? Paul Vunak talks about biting and eye jabs all the time and applies them during his workouts. Obviously everyone is wearing gear. Do we know the background of every MMA fighter out there? How can we assume that they dont have prior training? Now, in your training, do you put on eye protection and do those eye jabs?

Mike

Actually we do, we wear eye protection when working on face techniques and when fighting. We practice the fullest range of techniqes that are "legally" possible. In training for UFC events, you think they put on eye protection and practice eye gouges?

7sm

 

[MJS]

Your skill improving isn't contingent upon where you do your training, but on what you do in your training. Your saying training for a set event with set rules is better than doing kata, but your reasoing is that your only doing set techniques in kata. Thats contridictory. If you want to be a better fighter than you should spend more time fighting, and more time refining your techniques. I guess it is possible that we do forms differently as I've yet to see anyone else do forms like mantis people do.

Dude- you're totally misunderstanding what is being said here. A kata IS a preset series of moves. How can that possibly teach you how to fight, when a fight is not preset??

I'm sure he could and that is my point again. You do in a fight what you do in training. If you train for a specific event as you said, UFC, then you fight with those set techniques. You made my point for me.

You seem obsessed with street vs UFC. TWO different things here. There is nothing saying anywhere that any of the UFC guys would not be able to do an eye jab on the street. Just because they dont do them in the UFC, does not mean that they cant be done on the street. Do you know what there background is? Still waiting for that answer.

Actually we do, we wear eye protection when working on face techniques and when fighting. We practice the fullest range of techniqes that are "legally" possible. In training for UFC events, you think they put on eye protection and practice eye gouges?

Again, 2, I'll say it again, 2, very different things here. In the UFC they train for the rules that apply there. Again, do you know what they would do on the street? Look at Tank. Thats a good example. Hes a perfect example of a street fighter. Do you think that hed bite or do groin shots in a bar fight? I'm sure he would. As I've said before, it doest take a rocket scientist to do an eye jab.

Mike

 

[Bod]

Here is my opinion on why the standing Kung Fu disciplines do not fare well in MMA competitions.

First I'll make an arbitrary distinction between long-fist and 'Southern' kung fu styles.

Long-Fist styles aim to stay away from an opponent and then make well timed lunges against them, beating them off with fists and kicks. They work best against far less skilled fighters who are attacking the long-fist man en masse. When they throw they tend to throw with the bump and trip method, in order to move on. They don't see the point of ground fighting, which is fair.

The more compact (Southern) styles seem to me to be more geared to one on one fighting. They get past the arms while striking hard, straight into optimum grappling range. Unfortunately they rarely train the grappling. My private theory about this is that CMA masters arriving abroad didn't have the cash for mats, and the proud excuse of 'tradition' soon built up. What's worse they'd have been beaten every now and then in the grappling range by highly trained grapplers, and the invincibility myth would wear off, good for common sense, but bad for profits. Not all CMA masters behaved like this, but as most people would agree, post Bruce Lee the market was swamped with instructors only too willing to teach hand and foot skills, and there wasn't a huge amount of demand for the basic grappling skills needed to go with the approach.

OK, so we get ourselves a good Wing Chun guy in the UFC who blocks, gets in, does a basic trap, goes to sweep and nothing happens. Oh dear, the grapplers are not as easy to throw as your average guy, and the WC guy gets counter thrown by a man who has spent 30 years learning little else. On the ground he is demolished. Yikes. Time to get down the store and buy those mats.

I think the CMA are losing out in UFC because for the want of a nail the battle being lost. The throws are in there, in the forms, and yet they are not being trained to the extent they are needed. Add a 'limited time on the ground' rule to UFC and the CMA would be up there in the limelight all over again.

 

[7starmantis]

Dude- you're totally misunderstanding what is being said here. A kata IS a preset series of moves. How can that possibly teach you how to fight, when a fight is not preset??

I know exactly what your saying, a form/kata is deffinatly a set series of moves, however so is training for a UFC event. This is not the thread to get into the "How could forms be usefull" argument. What I'm saying is that your contradicting your own statements. Your talking of training for a UFC type event and then in the same breath saying forms are bad. Your doing the same thing in both of them, and thank you for so adamantly making my point for me. In your last quote you say that a set series of techniques cannot help you fight, yet your talking about the superiority of training for a UFC event which uses only a preset series of techniques. Then you say its ok that UFC guys dont practice these "other" techniques because they are easy and anyone can do them, and they can do them in a fight if needed without practicing them. I think you should talk to experienced MAist who have defended themselves on the street many times, they will all tell you that you fight the way you train. If you don't train for a certain technique, trying to do it in a fight could very well be detrimental to your health.

You seem obsessed with street vs UFC. TWO different things here. There is nothing saying anywhere that any of the UFC guys would not be able to do an eye jab on the street. Just because they dont do them in the UFC, does not mean that they cant be done on the street. Do you know what there background is? Still waiting for that answer.

I'm not obsessed, I'm just staying on topic. This thread is about UFC type events, thats why I'm talking about UFC type events. *wow*
Now you've just agreed with me again, street vs UFC are two completely different things. Now your saying therre is nothing saying a UFC guy couldn't do different techniques on the street. Yes, there background as you mentioned, is training for the UFC event. That does not include said techniques. If you seriously think that a fighter training for a specific UFC event is going to spend time practicing techniques outside of the set rules of UFC, you are mistaken. It would be a huge waste of time for them. They need to be spending every moment of training on what they will need in the ring. This is the same way that you should be training for only the things you could use in the street. The difference is just that one includes many more techniques than the other. If you don't agree with me, just take a look at your next quote, you agree there.

Again, 2, I'll say it again, 2, very different things here. In the UFC they train for the rules that apply there. Again, do you know what they would do on the street? Look at Tank. Thats a good example. Hes a perfect example of a street fighter. Do you think that hed bite or do groin shots in a bar fight? I'm sure he would. As I've said before, it doest take a rocket scientist to do an eye jab.

See, you agree that in training for a UFC type event you train in those techniques available for use in said event. This does not include some of the mentioned techniques. Now here is where the contradiction hits its high point. "Again, do you know what they would do on the street?" Well, since I thought we agreed that you fight like you train, then I can say that in a true self defense situation they would most likely use what they trained in. I'm not saying you can't do any moves other than what you train specifically for, but I'm saying if you don't train for every move for SD, you could seriously wound your chances of survival. Now, here is the next part, "Do you think that hed bite or do groin shots in a bar fight? I'm sure he would. As I've said before, it doest take a rocket scientist to do an eye jab." Yet, I guess your of the opinion that it does take a rocket scientist to do an armbar? See, what I'm saying is train for ALL possible attacks and defenses. This includes biting, eye gouging, joint breaking, stabbing, shooting, being attacked with a used toilet brush....
In any event, certain techniques will be left out. Training for pure SD doesn't. Thats all I'm saying, any event even those like UFC are still leaving out pure SD techniques that could save your life on the street.

7sm

 

[7starmantis]

Here is my opinion on why the standing Kung Fu disciplines do not fare well in MMA competitions.

Thats fair, my only response is that your incorrect about CMA not using grappling. Its normally not taught because of one simply reason, student quit. See, grappling is not touched on until far advanced techniques, because you have to learn some basics skills first. To say CMA are void of grappling is to say all MMA are void of teeth. Some my be missing a few, but some have all of them and they are in good shape. I know, stupidest example ever, but it makes my point. CMA are full of grappling you only have to get your skill level to that point in feel and yielding an such to actually be effecient at it. But when someone gets to that point, watch out, they are extremely effecient at it.

7sm

 

[someguy]

Not all CMA place don't teach grappling untill a more advanced level. Some teach at least a little bit early on. Basicly though I agree.

 

[Bod]

I fully acknowledge that all kung fu systems incorporate throwing, in fact in most it underpins the system.

Yet how many times have you read in response to the question "Howw should a CMA man fight a grappler" the answer "Keep on the outside", "Use lots of kicks" and so on.

I think the answer should be "Set up our own throws with the correct punches and infighting skills, and practise our arm clearing to stop them dragging us down."

How many CMA sparring practices have you seen turned into point kickboxing sessions, and form go straight out of the window? I believe that these errors are often caused by lack of very basic grappling skills in many CMA schools.