UFC proves KF useless

[Danny T]

I would need to see the technique being performed to know for sure. For example, you say "shoulder lock", are they performing a shoulder lock like this;

Or are they performing a shoulder lock like this;

In any case if someone is telling me they're doing Bjj techniques, I'll assume they're doing Bjj.

Nice pictures. Thanks.
Have done both methods in my training in shotokan, pekiti, and CSW; the lower one in TKD, WC, Silat, and Tai Chi. The upper in wrestling and of course the little BJJ I've done. It is also from a standing position as well from WC and Pekiti. Was first taught both in my shotokan training with the first example being from a standing position and crossbody position. I'm sure there are a few nuances that maybe a different like we control the base of the palm in the v-armlock vs the wrist for example.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Bjj forms the core of submission wrestling as well.

In any case if someone is telling me they're doing Bjj techniques, I'll assume they're doing Bjj.

Judo+Sambo+Catch= Bjj.

It is true that as a BJJ practitioner I am more than happy to steal any technique that works for me and isn't red hot or nailed down, then saying "it's part of BJJ now!" That doesn't mean that other people who learned the same techniques as part of a different art are actually BJJ practitioners.

 

[Buka]

I think we need to be careful with this, too. Striking is encouraged in the ufc, and rules are in place that favor the striker. Yet we still see submissions about once out of every three bouts, on average. That's still very common.

Also, the strikers learned grappling, and there are now, appropriately, no pure stylists any more. While each athlete has areas of strength and weakness, they are all well rounded. This is particularly true at the elite level. They're all competent strikers and grapplers.

You can't make statements like that. It could lead to the end arguing!

Great post.

 

[elder999]

Except in those cases Rousey specifically states that she is training in Bjj to improve her ground game in upcoming fights.

Do tell?

Show a link to where she specifically said this-strategically, I could believe it, but I've never heard or read as much, and find it hard to believe that her ground game needs-or needed- any "improvement" from BJJ-or that any "tweaks" that might be perceived as needed couldn't be provided by her home camp. Hell, the improvement in her striking game just in the last year-something she did need to focus on- is scary.

So, yeah, show me where she said that-I could believe it, but not from you.

 

[Hanzou]

It is true that as a BJJ practitioner I am more than happy to steal any technique that works for me and isn't red hot or nailed down, then saying "it's part of BJJ now!" That doesn't mean that other people who learned the same techniques as part of a different art are actually BJJ practitioners.

My point is that Bjj forms the core of MMA and submission wrestling/grappling. Through that, techniques get siphoned from Bjj and into Bjj in a constant give and take. So much so, that at this point the only thing that truly separates competitive grappling these days are the rule sets in their respective competitive sports. I think its a wonderful thing that Wrestlers, Judokas, Jiujiteiros, Somboists, MMA grapplers, etc. can all exchange techniques with each other in order for everyone to improve.

 

[drop bear]

My point is that Bjj forms the core of MMA and submission wrestling/grappling. Through that, techniques get siphoned from Bjj and into Bjj in a constant give and take. So much so, that at this point the only thing that truly separates competitive grappling these days are the rule sets in their respective competitive sports. I think its a wonderful thing that Wrestlers, Judokas, Jiujiteiros, Somboists, MMA grapplers, etc. can all exchange techniques with each other in order for everyone to improve.

has influenced grappling. More than kung fu has influenced striking. Yeah that would be pretty sound.

 

[Danny T]

It is true that as a BJJ practitioner I am more than happy to steal any technique that works for me and isn't red hot or nailed down, then saying "it's part of BJJ now!" That doesn't mean that other people who learned the same techniques as part of a different art are actually BJJ practitioners.

It is true as a martial artist I am more than happy to steal any movement, application, or action that works for me saying it is a part of what I do now. Doesn't mean I'm doing the art or the system or style from where I took it. I'm more than happy to acknowledge where I got it from and I am merely doing that particular action. There is far more to any art than just doing an action from it.

 

[Danny T]

My point is that Bjj forms the core of MMA and submission wrestling/grappling. Through that, techniques get siphoned from Bjj and into Bjj in a constant give and take. So much so, that at this point the only thing that truly separates competitive grappling these days are the rule sets in their respective competitive sports. I think its a wonderful thing that Wrestlers, Judokas, Jiujiteiros, Somboists, MMA grapplers, etc. can all exchange techniques with each other in order for everyone to improve.

I would agree completly with this if you had stated Bjj is one of several grappling systems that form the core of MMA and submission wrestling. Bjj alone is not the core.

 

[elder999]

Except in those cases Rousey specifically states that she is training in Bjj to improve her ground game in upcoming fights.

In fact, oddly, back in July of this year, Ronda said here:

"judo fighters that are good on the ground never really got the respect they deserved" and that she "can beat any BJJ girl in the world, gi or no-gi, any weight division, black belt all the way in any rule setting."

And, back in Nov of 2011, she said this:

I see no big difference between BJJ and judo. When people compliment me on my BJJ, I tell them I am a BJJ white belt, because it’s true. I believe BJJ and judo are the same sport with different emphasis. BJJ is 20% standing and 80% on the ground, whereas judo is 80% standing and 20% on the ground. It’s all the same to me.

 

[drop bear]

In fact, oddly, back in July of this year, Ronda said here:




And, back in Nov of 2011, she said this:

Ronda Rousey Training For UFC168 - BJJ Today

and yet regards it seriously enough to turn up and train in bjj schools.

so why isn't she doing kung fu?

 

[elder999]

Ronda Rousey Training For UFC168 - BJJ Today

and yet regards it seriously enough to turn up and train in bjj schools.

so why isn't she doing kung fu?

Because BJJ is, most likely, what she's facing-you don't beat BJJ people by rolling with kung fu practitioners, you do it by rolling with BJJ people and understanding how to beat their game with yours. Let's examine that more closely, shall we?

1) KOTC-Opponent, Ediane Gomez, Brazilian MMA fighter-win by armbar
2) Strikeforce-Opponent, Sarah D'Alelio, Brazilian jiujitsu based MMA fighter-win by armbar
3) Strikeforce-Opponent, Julia Budd, Muay Thai based MMA figher-win by armbar
4) Strikeforce-Opponent, Meisha Tate, BJJ based/ground-centric (wrestling, etc.) MMA fighter-win by armbar, SF championship
5) Strikeforcce-Opponent, Sarah Kaufman, BJJ brown belt MMA fighter-win by armbar
6) UFC-Opponent, Liz Carmouche, BJJ based MMA fighter-win by armbar
7) UFC-Opponent, Meisha Tate, BJJ based MMA fighter- win by armbar
8) UFC-Opponent, Sarah McCann, Olympic wrestling based MMA fighter-win by TKO
9) UFC- Opponent, Alexis Davis, BJJ and JJJ black belt MMA fighter-win by KO

Of course, when you roll with guys almost all the time, have world-class skills, and they've been developed in Judo, where a fast ground game is the rule, not the exception, and have the right kind of coaching and strategizing, then of course you don't-as she said-need anything from BJJ, except to learn their strategies so you can develop counters to them, or traps for them......they are, though, apparently going to be the base/background of most of her opponents.

I mean, it's not as though they're going to teach her how to throw a person, or control them on the ground, or armbar them-is it? Of course, it could be just as the Gracie's said in the video-she does have to overcome that "bottom=losing" mentality from a lifetime of Judo.

Or it could just be to make videos like that one, so BJJ fanboys like Xebecheh Hanzou can keep their worldview...

so why isn't she doing kung fu?

What makes you so sure she isn't?

(That's one of her striking coaches, Edmond Tarveydan....she really could be doing some gung fu!)

 

[drop bear]

Because BJJ is, most likely, what she's facing-you don't beat BJJ people by rolling with kung fu practitioners, you do it by rolling with BJJ people and understanding how to beat their game with yours. Let's examine that more closely, shall we?

1) KOTC-Opponent, Ediane Gomez, Brazilian MMA fighter-win by armbar
2) Strikeforce-Opponent, Sarah D'Alelio, Brazilian jiujitsu based MMA fighter-win by armbar
3) Strikeforce-Opponent, Julia Budd, Muay Thai based MMA figher-win by armbar
4) Strikeforce-Opponent, Meisha Tate, BJJ based/ground-centric (wrestling, etc.) MMA fighter-win by armbar, SF championship
5) Strikeforcce-Opponent, Sarah Kaufman, BJJ brown belt MMA fighter-win by armbar
6) UFC-Opponent, Liz Carmouche, BJJ based MMA fighter-win by armbar
7) UFC-Opponent, Meisha Tate, BJJ based MMA fighter- win by armbar
8) UFC-Opponent, Sarah McCann, Olympic wrestling based MMA fighter-win by TKO
9) UFC- Opponent, Alexis Davis, BJJ and JJJ black belt MMA fighter-win by KO

Of course, when you roll with guys almost all the time, have world-class skills, and they've been developed in Judo, where a fast ground game is the rule, not the exception, and have the right kind of coaching and strategizing, then of course you don't-as she said-need anything from BJJ, except to learn their strategies so you can develop counters to them, or traps for them......they are, though, apparently going to be the base/background of most of her opponents.

I mean, it's not as though they're going to teach her how to throw a person, or control them on the ground, or armbar them-is it? Of course, it could be just as the Gracie's said in the video-she does have to overcome that "bottom=losing" mentality from a lifetime of Judo.

Or it could just be to make videos like that one, so BJJ fanboys like Xebecheh Hanzou can keep their worldview...



What makes you so sure she isn't?

(That's one of her striking coaches, Edmond Tarveydan....she really could be doing some gung fu!)

Because BJJ is, most likely, what she's facing-you don't beat BJJ people by rolling with kung fu practitioners, you do it by rolling with BJJ people and understanding how to beat their game with yours. Let's examine that more closely, shall we?

1) KOTC-Opponent, Ediane Gomez, Brazilian MMA fighter-win by armbar
2) Strikeforce-Opponent, Sarah D'Alelio, Brazilian jiujitsu based MMA fighter-win by armbar
3) Strikeforce-Opponent, Julia Budd, Muay Thai based MMA figher-win by armbar
4) Strikeforce-Opponent, Meisha Tate, BJJ based/ground-centric (wrestling, etc.) MMA fighter-win by armbar, SF championship
5) Strikeforcce-Opponent, Sarah Kaufman, BJJ brown belt MMA fighter-win by armbar
6) UFC-Opponent, Liz Carmouche, BJJ based MMA fighter-win by armbar
7) UFC-Opponent, Meisha Tate, BJJ based MMA fighter- win by armbar
8) UFC-Opponent, Sarah McCann, Olympic wrestling based MMA fighter-win by TKO
9) UFC- Opponent, Alexis Davis, BJJ and JJJ black belt MMA fighter-win by KO

Of course, when you roll with guys almost all the time, have world-class skills, and they've been developed in Judo, where a fast ground game is the rule, not the exception, and have the right kind of coaching and strategizing, then of course you don't-as she said-need anything from BJJ, except to learn their strategies so you can develop counters to them, or traps for them......they are, though, apparently going to be the base/background of most of her opponents.

I mean, it's not as though they're going to teach her how to throw a person, or control them on the ground, or armbar them-is it? Of course, it could be just as the Gracie's said in the video-she does have to overcome that "bottom=losing" mentality from a lifetime of Judo.

Or it could just be to make videos like that one, so BJJ fanboys like Xebecheh Hanzou can keep their worldview...



What makes you so sure she isn't?

(That's one of her striking coaches, Edmond Tarveydan....she really could be doing some gung fu!)

nice find.

that closes one door while opening another. Which is the idea that nobody mma understands kung fu.

and given mma guys can kung fu. Why can't kung fu guys mma.

 

[elder999]

nice find.

that closes one door while opening another. Which is the idea that nobody mma understands kung fu.

and given mma guys can kung fu. Why can't kung fu guys mma.

Roy "Big Country" Nelson trains in Shaolin. There's a few others-of course, then it becomes a question of which came first, the gung fu or the mma....they come and go, y'know? Sam Bieri, Luke Cummo and Jerome Lebanner all trained in wing chun or some other Chinese form.

Jason Delucia (Five Animals) actually did pretty well in MMA, back in its bad, bad heyday, in spite of losing to Royce Gracie in UFC 2, and being Bas's ***** at Pancrase, he went something like 33-21 for his career..

 

[drop bear]

Roy "Big Country" Nelson trains in Shaolin. There's a few others-of course, then it becomes a question of which came first, the gung fu or the mma....

i would have assumed kung fu came first. And that there are fighters who use it.

 

[elder999]

i would have assumed kung fu came first. And that there are fighters who use it.

In Roy Nelson's case, sure-he started training in his sifu's garage when he (Nelson) was in high school......

 

[elder999]

nice find.

that closes one door while opening another. Which is the idea that nobody mma understands kung fu.

and given mma guys can kung fu. Why can't kung fu guys mma.

And, of course, all the other arguments: the learning curve for all but a few forms of gung fu is pretty steep for someone who wants to be an MMA fighter. The rules of MMA don't really suit most forms of gung fu. Etc., etc., etc.-MMA just may not be attractive to a lot of gung fu folk in the west. In China, of course, the two MMA organizations that I know of have several fighters from gung fu backgrounds, but that's as one would expect....

 

[kung fu fighter]

Sam Bieri, Luke Cummo and Jerome Lebanner all trained in wing chun or some other Chinese form.

which one of them was trained in wing chun?

 

[elder999]

which one of them was trained in wing chun?

Jerome Lebanner and Sami Berik

 

[nicos]

[

I am curious as to the opinions of the people here about somethign that is really gaining some big publicity. With the explosion of the UFC and the MMA "style" of fighting, why is it we do not see kung fu practitioners in these fights? Or why do we not see them doing well in them? Has the modern MMA style of fighting finally proven kung fu to be useless and outdated? Articles are being presented using the terms "reality" and "full ground curriculum" as synonymous. Is this true?

What do you think? Why do you feel kung fu or CMA guys are not doing well in these competitions? What is it that takes thier effectivenss away? In true reality based fighting, does the UFC or MMA style of fighting truly retire kung fu or chinese martial arts? I'm not trying to start a fire here and I'm not really interested in ego at all. But serious response to this question I'm interested in. Seriously, why do you feel this is happening? The fact that kung fu does horrible in these fights is true, its fact....I'm interested in your thoughts as to why that is so. Also, what can CMAist do to combat this? Or is there anything we can do to survive this evolution of fighting if you will?


7sm

I often wonder why its just the chinese arts being questioned and not the other traditional arts such as Filipino stick fighting, silat, European sword fighting, jousters, fencers, African stick fighters,Persian wrestlers. it sounds silly but every time someone asks the why no kung fu in mma there is a subtle silly ring to it. MMA is exactly what it is very competitive freestyle fighting not for the not very well conditioned fighter who can't take a good few gut punches without wanting to puke. if you've taken a few longfist classes in your lifetime an maybe mixed 1 or two years of chin na training or something more "revered" like Krav maga classes i dont think you should find yourself in an mma ring, boxing ring, or even a wwe ring ,cuz you have no or little training in any of these things. MMA is believed by many now as a "no ********, hardcore, the real thing, practical, (lots of testosterone and ego and men hugging men) my style is better than yours cuz i can beat you in the octagon" kind of thing. especially with the commercialization of it and all. its not bad I like any sport that promotes good competition. what i'm about to say you can believe or not I know what i've seen- few Chinese martial artist who are very good will take part in octagon fighting. the very background of most of the Chinese arts are based on self development and not beating people up. there is a plus and a minus in this cuz now you have certain schools that say "oh were not into the fighting aspect of things" and totally exclude fighting or just water it down thus loosing a certain understanding of what they do. but there are some who have still kept on to the "hard"parts of the art and even promote good competition you will find few or none on you tube but i can still name some a few like Hisham Al-Haroun you might get something on him believe it or not he's a master of monkey gong fu not bjj or any of the common mma base styles, then there's Sifu Phu ngo who just sometime ago posted some grappling on you tube and if this doesn't convince you then nobody cares. The thing is there's nothing new under the sun, Chinese martial arts always had stand up fighting, throwing, grappling, joint lock manipulation, acupuncture and pressure, along with internal and external conditioning and meditation, all this made a complete fighter. today you see some of this (mostly stand up and throwing along with some conditioning in Sanda which is COMPETITION and shuia jiao which is COMPETITION. Military and police sanda is a whole nother story by the way, which is far deadlier than any MMA youve ever seen (naturally so), and also Russian Sambo and systema are very "ring formidable" but not as common as Bjj and "muy thai" and all that stuff in today's mma Why? because MMA is undeniably a western Sport Japanese martial arts and naturally it's Brazilian offshoot were always more known than the Chinese and other Asian ones in the west, (you would argue that Muy thai is the bees knees in MMA today i say Muy thai was pushed as a sport from 1920 something and recognized by the olympic council of asia since the 90s) if it wasn't for certain Chinese figures, kung fu would still be a secretly practiced art in the backstreets of Chinatown. but gradually we see Sanda and other previously unknown of eastern, middle eastern, and even European arts finding there way to the west and gradually western competition. in wrapping up I'm going to say that there are seasoned street brawlers who can probably throw down some mixed martial artist in a fistfight.

 

[kung fu fighter]

Jerome Lebanner and Sami Berik

Thanks! Jerome Lebanner hits like a truck, but has a glass chin. Sami Berik has great footwork