UFC and such...

[7starmantis]

7*, your sigung is amazing!

I remember watching a reality show last year or the year before, where it was all about military boot camp. This one male and one female had to stand at attention, and whoever broke their stance would lose. They stood for almost 3 hours non-stop, I think, before the female stepped out of attention. I thought 3 hours was long...but 6 hours, even with breaks every hour, is even more amazing!

Yeah, I can't sit on the couch for 6 hours, let alone sit in horse stance!! He is probably one of the most hardcore kung fu guys I've ever met. Well, he doesn't train like that anymore, but he did for most of his life, he doesn't have to anymore! What blows my mind is that we do horse stance low enough that you place a staff across your knees and it has to not roll off. Thats what kills me.

 

[Ninway J]

Yeah, I can't sit on the couch for 6 hours, let alone sit in horse stance!! He is probably one of the most hardcore kung fu guys I've ever met. Well, he doesn't train like that anymore, but he did for most of his life, he doesn't have to anymore! What blows my mind is that we do horse stance low enough that you place a staff across your knees and it has to not roll off. Thats what kills me.

Oh man! So what's the longest you've ever held a horse stance that low, 7*? :uhyeah:

Back to the subject of UFC and such, 7*, you have a good point in that CMArtists would have to compromise much in order to compete. That's true from an art that traditionally teaches to "kick the groin first", and is very non-sport.

 

[7starmantis]

Oh man! So what's the longest you've ever held a horse stance that low, 7*? :uhyeah:

Me? Just a mere 10 minutes. Its not so much physical anymore but a mental capacity to deal with the pain. It is very painful, believe me.

Back to the subject of UFC and such, 7*, you have a good point in that CMArtists would have to compromise much in order to compete. That's true from an art that traditionally teaches to "kick the groin first", and is very non-sport.

Yeah, I guess there isn't really any true judge of CMA anymore where hand to hand combat doesn't have a huge role in our society. I am training to enter some san shou and I guess that is pretty close to "real" fighting yet again with even more rules than UFC type things. To me, it is about the ability to stick to your principles in a situation of a "real" fight. If in my san shou matches I can still stick to my principles and pull off those techniques that are legal, then I believe that I will be able to do the same thing with techniques that are illegal. I know its not the same, but you can't really go around breaking people's arms or anything these days, its kind of frowned upon.

7sm

 

[Makalakumu]

Some people quit after participating in those types of tournaments. I almost did. My first fight, I broke my hand punching a guy in the head and he hit me so hard I couldn't breath. Then he threw a combo and the next thing I knew I was on my back staring at the lights wondering how I got there. The fight was over in 20 seconds and I was so humiliated that it took me a long time to try again. Go for it, 7sm. Just keep in mind that MA is more then fighting.

 

[CloudChaser]

aren't there submission holds you could use that are legal and just as effective?
yeah, MA is more than fighting, but you still gotta learn to apply the techniques and there's only so much you can do to your sparring partner w/o hurting them...the real test will be out on the street or in a UFC type tournament where there aren't so many limitations to what you're allowed to do...

 

[RHD]

...the real test will be out on the street or in a UFC type tournament where there aren't so many limitations to what you're allowed to do...

Well...I'm sure this will ruffle some MMA feathers, but here goes. MMA is a ring sport. It certainly can be an effective approach to fighting and I'm not arguing against that fact. BUT, MMA doesn't necessarily prepare a person to fight or defend themselves outside of the ring any better than any other fighting system, martial art, or approach. There really is no way to test your skills without risking permanent injury, death, jail time, and lawsuits, we as practitioners of martial arts, MMA included, have to come to terms with that.
All the barking, bragging, and arguments aside, when your life is on the line your ability to defend yourself has more to do with your will to survive than your training in the gym, dojo, or kwoon.
Mike

 

[don bohrer]

Ring fighters have advantages because they work a smaller core group of moves to a greater degree under conditions more condusive to ring figthing. We do not see many traditional stylist inside UFC style events because we do not train for that kind of fighting. Most martial arts styles have ways to test their arts combat effectivness, but often not with the same intensity you witness inside the UFC.

don

 

[don bohrer]

One more thing I would like to add. It's not the style that lends itself to victory but the fighter that trains the smartest, hardest, and most realistically that has the advantage!

don

 

[7starmantis]

One more thing I would like to add. It's not the style that lends itself to victory but the fighter that trains the smartest, hardest, and most realistically that has the advantage!

To a certain point that is correct, however there is a need for "realistic" training and there are many systems that lend themselves to unrealistic training as far as UFC type fighting goes at least.

7sm

 

[RHD]

Sorry Don, I disagree with you here. Realistic isn't training to fight a pumped up young buck wearing a speedo. Realistic is training to deal with a desperate drug addict who grabs your lapel and thrusts a kinfe at your guts. There's a world of difference. Granted, the MMA people do train with a good deal of contact and resistance, but any martial arts school can do this as well...it's just a matter of your personal training focus.
Mike :soapbox:

 

[7starmantis]

I think nowdays people are confusing contact with realism. The more the contact the more realistic it becomes. This is not neccesarily the truth.

7sm

 

[don bohrer]

Aw Nuts!
AO Hell keeps dumping out while I'm writing. Grrrr....

Guys,

The UFC controlled environment like any other sport. Although the nature of contact found in the UFC would be an eye opener for most. I think it's important to clarify how much and what kind of contact has purpose. Any defense needs to move beyond the rehearsed and compliant opponent stage so a person can work out the bugs in their training and mindset. Forms and working self defense with a willing partner often train realistic situations but leave out intensity and the uncertainty.

Mike, 7sm
My 2nd posting was refering to Martial Artist in general not the UFC.

 

[InvisibleFist]

The chinese martial arts were very well represented in the early UFC's, unfortunately they didn't win much (but they were not utterly humiliated either...like the Sumo guy) here's the roster for the first 3. As you can see, theres plenty of kung fu going on.

Results of UFCI - III
​

UFC I - was in Denver.

Participants, results and styles of fighting:

1. Jason Delucia (Kung Fu) defeated Trent Jenkins (Karate)
2. Gerard Gordeau (Savate) defeated Teila Tuli (Sumo)
3. Kevin Rosier (Kickboxing) defeated Zane Frazier (Kempo Karate)
4. Royce Gracie (Gracie Jiu-Jitsu) defeated Art Jimmerson (Boxing)
5. Ken Shamrock (Shootfigthing) defeated Pat Smith (Kickboxing) with a leglock
6. Gerard Gordeau (Savate) defeated Kevin Rosier(kickboxing)
7. Royce Gracie (Gracie Jiu-Jitsu) defeated Ken Shamrock (Shootfigthing)
8. Royce Gracie (Gracie Jiu-Jitsu) defeats Gerard Gordeau(Savate)

Royce Gracie is Champion of UFC I
​

UFC II - was in Denver

Participants, results and styles:

(Alternates)
Fred Ettish (Karate)
Trent Jenkins (Karate)

Fights:

1. Scott Morris (Ninjitsu) defeats Sean Daugherty (Karate)
2. Pat Smith (Kickboxing) defeats Ray Wizard (Karate)
3. Johnny Rhodes (Karate) defeats David Levicki (Kung Fu)
4. Frank Hammaker (Karate) defeats Thaddeus Luster (Kung Fu)
5. Orlando Weit (Muay Thai) defeats Robert Lucarrelli (Kickboxing)
6. Remco Pardoel (Jiu-Jitsu/Judo) defeats Alberto Leon (Penchak Silat)
7. Jason Delucia (Kung Fu) defeats Scott Baker (Kung Fu)
8. Royce Gracie (Gracie Jiu-Jutsu) defeats Minoki Ichihara (Karate)
9. Pat Smith (Kickboxing) defeats Scott Morris (Ninjitsu)
10. Johnny Rhodes (Karate) defeats Fred "Ettish (Karate)
11. Remco Pardoel (Jui-Jitsu/Judo) defeats Orlando Weit (Muay Thai)
12. Royce Gracie (Gracie Jui-Jitsu) defeats Jason DeLucia (Kung Fu)
13. Pat Smith (Kickboxing) defeats Johnny Rhodes (karate)
14. Royce Gracie (Gracie Jiu-Jitsu) defeats Remco Pardoel (Jiu-Jitsu/Judo)
15. Royce Gracie (Gracie Jiu-Jitsu) defeats Pat Smith (Kickboxing)

Royce Gracie is Champion of UFC II
​

UFC III - was held in Charlotte, North Carolina.

Participants, results and styles:

Alternates:
Steve Jennum (Ninjitsu)
Felix Lee Mitchell (Kung Fu)

1. Keith Hackney (Kempo Karate) defeats Emmanuel Yarbrough (Sumo)
   NOTE 1: Keith Hackney broke his hand against Emmanuel Yarbrough - could not continue.
2. Ken Shamrock (Shootfigthing) defeats Christophe Leininger (Judo)
3. Harold Howard (Karate) defeats Roland Payne (Muay Thai)
4. Royce Gracie (Gracie Jui-Jitsu) defeats Kimo (Pancration)
5. Ken Shamrock (Shootfigthing) defeats Felix Lee Mitchell (Kung Fu)
6. NOTE 2: Royce Gracie (Gracie Jui-Jitsu) could not fight against Harold Howard (Karate) because of an injury in the Kimo fight
7. NOTE 3: Shamrock unable to continue due to injury in Mitchell fight
8. Steve Jennum as alternate for Shamrock defeats Harold Howard (Karate)

 

[CloudChaser]

for those who actually saw the UFC fights, what was it like? i realize it probably wasn't as glamorous as a hollywood choreographed movie, but was the spectacle worth the ticket price? i personally enjoy watching high flying kicks and fancy knockouts, but i can also imagine a long drawn out affair where a jiu-jitsu expert like Gracie grabs a hold of his opponent and just hangs tight until he submits... 15+ minutes watching two guys locked together in a pretzel hold would put me to sleep, geez!

i'm sure there are also new rules now to avoid such circumstances... to keep the action going and all, y'know?

 

[don bohrer]

I know Major Players rents the early UFC's. Block Buster might too.

don

 

[streetwise]

To go back to the original question, sure, lots of CMA in MMA (I am starting to sound like the government with all the 3 letter code!). It is just that there are very seldom any "pure" styles. MMA is a sport, the practitioners practice "MMA style". With that said, I have trained with Frank Shamrock (a UFC champ and King of Pancrase) and Guy Mezger (many time contender in several mma promotions) at CMA seminars. A number of mma champions have trained with a couple of CMA masters I know. Are they "kung fu guys"? Nope, but the succesfull Thai boxers aren't really just MT, etc, etc.

 

[Tony]

Yeah, I can't sit on the couch for 6 hours, let alone sit in horse stance!! He is probably one of the most hardcore kung fu guys I've ever met. Well, he doesn't train like that anymore, but he did for most of his life, he doesn't have to anymore! What blows my mind is that we do horse stance low enough that you place a staff across your knees and it has to not roll off. Thats what kills me.

Hi 7*

We sometimes do that too! and it really hurts! we were doing something called Horse form last night, which emphasises a lot of stance work! My instructor can be very hard on us! He'll come and stand on our foot if we're not low enough in Ding Bow or oush us over if we are off balance and aren't covering our centre line properly! Last night was especially gruelling! i have heard of my instructors stories when he was in competitions actually knocking people out! He is a lot smaller than me, but so powerful! It really inspires me and shows you don't have to be big to defeat bigger opponents! His training was a lot harder than ours I am sure!

 

[7starmantis]

I think also some of the problem could be the use of the words "kung fu". In all reality thats like saying martial arts. There are so many systems of kung fu it really is hard to see someone doceted as kung fu and even know if they are skilled at any of the CMA.

7sm

 

[7starmantis]

I was just thinking, maybe its the amount of time needed to be extremely effective at kung fu. Its not something you can pick up and add to your arsenal in a few months, or years even for that matter. Maybe that is why we don't see much in UFC type events. A fighter wanted to add techniques that he/she can immediatly begin to use, not spend a few years learning how to apply it.

7sm

 

[brothershaw]

At this point, and for the past couple of years , the guys in the ufc etc have pretty much gotten it down to a science on how to fight and win in these tournaments most effectively. Genereally speaking that is soften the oppentent up, get them to the ground and either pound them out or submit them. THey then train in the quickest ways to do that. THey arent interested in trading blows (like boxing). THey wnat to finish quickly with minimum damage. At the same time they dont want to hurt each other more than necessary to win ( after all it is a sport). So even a great kung fu guy ( in whatever style) would probably resort to the same formula because it works good. UNLESS we see some kung fu guy or some other stylist just take his oppenent out with a dazzling combination of strikes. ( I would pay really good money to see that, I would LOVE to see that.)


If someone comes along with a new way to win ( within the rules) then the ufc will change.

What kung fu needs is a full contact tourny where the rules state you have to use open hand techniques, standing chin na if you can get it etc. Let them wear some of kind of metal throat collar so you can do throat strikes for points if you can get, and a 10 second max on the ground. And judge it like boxing where you can win on knockout or judges points. THen you would see something quite different from UFC. Quite a few people would get hurt but eventually, a system would develop.