Tyson vs Paul

[marvin8]

My first thoughts went to this.
1. That statement was made after 1 year of just being in the industry. Not near long enough to understand it.

Those were Jake's thoughts at the time. Agreements are made outside of contracts all the time and people get away with it.

Like I said before. When people think things are rigged or a conspiracy when it doesn't turn out the way they think it should. It's just bad mindset to have.

People are not complaining about the outcome of the fight. They are saying it was predetermined not a real fight.

Here's a warning. Stop being so quick to jump on the coat tails of influencers. There is a reason why they are called influencers and not "Truth tellers" or "Experts" There entire profession is to influence your thought.

Yes, don't be so quick to believe influencers when they tell you this is a real fight. In Paul vs Tyson, Jake's people decide what the best outcome of the fight will be for both combatants, then offer their plan to Mike.

 

[HighKick]

I don't even know what you are saying. What is a non-MA's competition tool? Or better yet. What do you think is a MA's competition tool?

I see this very clearly in your comments. There are countless techniques that do not explicitly belong to any particular style or system. Most LEO understand and train in many of these techniques.

This is the definition of TMA. You can find "cross pollination" among different systems having the same techniques. Jow Ga Kung Fu is made of 3 different fighting systems. The founder took what he found useful from each system and combined them to make one system. This is the same thing MMA fighters do on an individual level. The only difference is that they aren't creating systems.

Um, that is Exactly what I said. You may not know this, but MDK TKD was quite influenced by Kung Fu. along with Okinawan/Japanese influences.

People who train TMA application for use in the context of System A vs System B do not have any problems with this. When I train with BJJ practitioners I don't have any problems using any of my TMA techniques. In reality, I use 2 techniques. Taiji push hand for sensitivity and a Jow Ga technique called "wrap the mummy" I'm able to use that same Jow Ga technique against grapplers and boxers. This technique comes natural for me now and I look at ease when applying it. The people who have trouble with what you state are people who don't train application and people who don't train System A vs System B.

Now you are just contradicting your previous comments. Again, Exactly what I inferred earlier. I am at a bit of a loss how to reply, but I train and am belted in three very different styles, TKD, Shotokan, & Kali. I travel a lot for work and have worked out at over 200 schools of all different styles. Some things cross over, several things to not.

It's not difficult. Learn to apply the technique and then train System A vs System B. "Family doesn't fight family" as fact you will discover that your techniques are easier to pull off when it's "System A vs System B" You'll discover that that some techniques work really well against one system and not against another system. The Jow Ga technique Wrap the mummy works well against boxers and grapplers but not so good against Wing Chun. By training System A vs System B, I learn when to apply the technique and against whom. I learn the limitations of it and what types of things make it difficult to pull off.

The problem isn't the History of TMA, the problem is that too many people don't know how to use it and too many people don't care about learning how to apply it. There is nothing I had to modernize with Jow Ga in order to make it work. I think people who say that a technique needs to be modernized are those who don't understand how that particular technique works. People in this forum used wo wonder how I was able to hit people with my long fist techniques. Some thought it was too slow. Now you seem the same technique in MMA knocking people out. I understand why the technique works and I know what breaks the technique. The only reason I understand it because I trained to used it and I failed many times before I understood it.

This sounds more like Koolaid propaganda than anything else. Or comments from someone with a narrow view on martial arts as a whole. It sounds like you have been involved in CMA and not much else and have been influenced by that viewpoint. I could be wrong. Let's face it, Kung Fu has fractured (Sholin, Wing Chun, Tai Chi, Baguazhang, there are probably more I do not know about) like most other styles. Good/bad? My guess would be good.
Again, struggling with how to respond but if I am working out/sparring with a person from another style, sometimes I have to learn their rules first. If I am in a LEO situation, I pull from all my experiences and training. There is no magic or System A vs System B to it. It is all the same MA/self-defense at that point.
I am not trying to sound like a jerk, but it is annoying when the things I just said are being repeated a different way.

Most of the time refinements in movements are over time and are either very subtle or non-existent (Sans modern 'styles' like MMA). But I am certain it has happened in Every style. There are just too many references to dispute it.
I have trained since '82, so I have seen a lot from a lot of different viewpoints. Where change is most consistent is in the ring or on the mat. Sometimes it is simply combining traditional techniques that are not commonly used together. Sometimes techniques are changed to get a tactical advantage over your competition (ask anyone who has competed at a high level, (nationals or higher) in any style. I have no clue if Kung Fu has such competitions.

 

[JowGaWolf]

People are not complaining about the outcome of the fight. They are saying it was predetermined not a real fight.

They are complaining about the outcome of the fight. The outcome of the fight also means how they fought. If Tyson knocked out Jake or if Jake knocked out Tyson then there would be no discussion about if it was fake or not.

Yes, don't be so quick to believe influencers when they tell you this is a real fight.

I don't listen to influencers because I know what they are about. Influencers aren't required to verify their information for accuracy because that's not what an influencer is about. Info providers are one thing, but Influencers are an entirely different breed. This is something I'm personally familiar with because I do online market, so I don't listen to influencers.

Here is the definition of a social media influencer
What is the definition of a Social Media Influencer?
A social media influencer is an individual who has built a significant following on social media platforms and has the ability to influence the opinions, behaviors, and purchasing decisions of their audience. Influencers often create content related to specific niches such as fashion, beauty, fitness, travel, technology, or lifestyle. They leverage their credibility, expertise, and relationship with their followers to promote products, services, or ideas.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I see this very clearly in your comments. There are countless techniques that do not explicitly belong to any particular style or system. Most LEO understand and train in many of these techniques.

But what is your point?

I tell you that iI don't understand what you are talking about, and you respond with a 3 sentence response.
Your 1st sentence is about me not understanding you. Yeah I'm the one that told you that.
Your 2nd Sentence: You don't say what techniques you are referring to.
Your 3rd Sentence Mentions LEO and you say that they train techniques. Which techniques are you specifically referring to?

 

[Sammy Naur]

What proof do you have that Spidey is not a behavior analyst too? You may be defaming him. From Spidey's YouTube channel...

"My experience comes from my Bachelor's degree in Sociology, minor in Psychology, certification in criminal interrogation, certification in body language analysis as well as 10+ years as an award winning mentalist. Now I teach these methods to sales teams, university classes and on Television.

What evidence do you have that he is not an authority on behavioral analysis?

Making behavioral arts videos that generate views and money does not take away his certifications.


What proof do you have that Jake and Mike did not have an agreement outside of the written contract?


The show was a success. We'll see if there are any repercussions from the public backlash believing the fight was staged.

Everyone's can have an opinion. The majority of Paul's paid viewers are not necessarily hard core boxing fans.


Right. Just like many believe Paul vs Tyson was staged.

You are basically promoting a conspiracy theory.

The last "many believe" part is especially problematic.

And you keep bolding "you" to various responses, to produce evidence. But the burden of claim is on you, to support your conspiracy theory, right?

"Spidey" might have some college degrees and a social media following, but it doesn't make him a "leading" anything with respect to boxing.

Boxing is a sport that involves deception as a physical technique. So seeing some magician/mentalist guy trying to get clicks as if he's an expert on "body language" of boxing is really suspect

 

[Sammy Naur]

People are not complaining about the outcome of the fight. They are saying it was predetermined not a real fight.

"They" are doing both, and I think it's important to recognize both are probably wrong because practically none of them box.

You posted Mike's own trainer, he didn't think it was staged.

In fact, I think if you really research this and avoid distractions like "Spidey" you will find most of the actual boxers are mixed between "disappointed" and "proud".

 

[JowGaWolf]

This sounds more like Koolaid propaganda than anything else. Or comments from someone with a narrow view on martial arts as a whole. It sounds like you have been involved in CMA and not much else and have been influenced by that viewpoint.

You are correct. I only do CMA at the moment. I understand how much more difficult it is to learn in comparison to some of the other martial arts systems out there. A person in CMA is going to have to dig much deeper than other martial arts systems in terms of usage. In comparison other martial arts systems are more straight forward than CMA. There's less "Decode" in other martial arts systems than in CMA. And I'm not saying this as good thing.

The most recent conversation about Push Hands is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. There is a lot of that stuff in CMA and for the most part it doesn't make it easier to learn things. In addition to that some things in the forms have steps that were intentionally left out. So unless a person tries to use it in an application, they will never know what step is missing. So, while I'm currently only focused on CMA, I only spar System A vs System B.

Plus I've already shown many times the weaknesses of only doing System A vs System A.

As far as my influence in other systems. I can't help but to be influenced because I spart System A vs System B. There's no way a person can be successful in System A vs System B without being influenced by System B.

Think of Martial Arts like weapon design. Countries do not design Weapon Systems to fight itself. They design them to fight the systems of other countries. Martial Arts is like that. From Spear, to Sword, to Staff, to Arrows and Armor. Each system is designed to exploit the weakness of another system. Family does not Family.

If your village and my village doesn't get along then my village fighting system has to be able to beat your village fighting system. It's a really basic concept. If your village has armor then I need to develop a weapon or a fighting system that can exploit your armor. Family does not fight Family.

 

[marvin8]

You are basically promoting a conspiracy theory.

No, I gave my reasons why I believe that fight is staged which happens to align with Spidey's.

The last "many believe" part is especially problematic.

Why do you believe it's problematic?

And you keep bolding "you" to various responses, to produce evidence. But the burden of claim is on you, to support your conspiracy theory, right?

You continue to use ad hominems attacking the messenger not the message without giving your reasons. Your post #234 is good because you argued the subject not other people. Again, everyone has a right to their opinion. The most important ones to Jake's business are those from paying viewers who are likely casual fight fans. It's hard to prove whether or not there was a side agreement between Jake and Mike in court so just give your opinion.

You posted Mike's own trainer, he didn't think it was staged.

That may be a biased opinion.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Again, struggling with how to respond but if I am working out/sparring with a person from another style, sometimes I have to learn their rules first.

For me sparring rules are what both sides agree to. They aren't always the same. I usually don't make rules that restrict the techniques of there system or my system. Safety is primary because the people I train also spar to learn. So we both have to exercise good control so as not to accidentally hurt the other in a way that will prevent future training or send us to the doctor.

Where change is most consistent is in the ring or on the mat. Sometimes it is simply combining traditional techniques that are not commonly used together. Sometimes techniques are changed to get a tactical advantage over your competition (ask anyone who has competed at a high level, (nationals or higher) in any style. I have no clue if Kung Fu has such competitions.

Kung Fu is always going to be a Yes and No answer to this. Kung Fu has such unorthodox movements that people just don't trust them. I showed Tony a Jow Ga technique, and he gave it a try in sparring on the first day. He did what took one of my students more than 6 years to try. That student didn't try it until after he saw that I was successful with it. The problem isn't so much the student, as there are simply not enough examples of people using CMA techniques in sparring unless it's System A vs System A. Which isn't going to help that CMA student.

Push hands techniques are always shown System A vs System A (Tai Chi vs Tai Chi) This was the same for most CMA for many years and it wasn't until Kung Fu Masters vs MMA drama that schools started to refocus on application. It's better than it was, but it's still not where it needs to be.

One of the biggest problems with CMA is that most people simply don't know how to enter or exit with the techniques. This issue causes Kung Fu to look like this.
Watch this video without sound and try to determine which guy is Jow Ga Kung Fu and which guy is kick boxing.

If I spar at this intensity, there will be no difficulty in knowing which was which. But that's just me and it doesn't mean that most Jow Ga students will be the same. I only know 2 Jow Ga practitioners that fight and it looks like Jow Ga. I'm one and the other is in Australia. To this day I haven't seen any Jow Ga sparring that displays a lot of Jow Ga techniques.

I had to learn from a lot of trial and error, but those that I teach will have a much easier time because they can use the same setups and entries that I use and grow from there. I was shown the application, but no one showed me how to set it up. I had to learn that on my own and ate a lot of punches doing so.

 

[Sammy Naur]

No, I gave my reasons why I believe that fight is staged which happens to align with Spidey's.


Why do you believe it's problematic?


You continue to use ad hominems attacking the messenger not the message without giving your reasons. Your post #234 is good because you argued the subject not other people. Again, everyone has a right to their opinion. The most important ones to Jake's business are those from paying viewers who are likely casual fight fans. It's hard to prove whether or not there was a side agreement between Jake and Mike in court so just give your opinion.


That may be a biased opinion.

You are still pushing a conspiracy theory, bolding "you", and not really supporting your conspiracy theory.

So now I'm ad homining? Who, you or "Spidey"?

Who did I insult?

 

[Sammy Naur]

It's hard to prove whether or not there was a side agreement between Jake and Mike in court so just give your opinion.

And yet your starting position was there was an agreement.

Just give you my opinon? I already have about half a dozen times.

Are you going to respond to this post asking what "you" think? This is getting a little repetitive.

 

[windwalker099]

Kung Fu is always going to be a Yes and No answer to this. Kung Fu has such unorthodox movements that people just don't trust them.

very prevalent in the 70s

The problem isn't so much the student, as there are simply not enough examples of people using CMA techniques in sparring unless it's System A vs System A. Which isn't going to help that CMA student.

Something I never quite understood, as the "student" should be their own example after reaching a certain level
Not have to rely on others. One of the main factors for some of the problems that others note with taiji. "off topic"

Push hands techniques are always shown System A vs System A (Tai Chi vs Tai Chi) This was the same for most CMA for many years and it wasn't until Kung Fu Masters vs MMA drama that schools started to refocus on application. It's better than it was, but it's still not where it needs to be.

What is called "push hands" or other names "rubbing hands" ect. Historically was opposed. by some masters understanding the natural outcome of the usage as a competition venue..instead of a training device.

"The term "push hands" first appeared during the Qin and Han Dynasties. "Push hands" was mentioned in the explanation of the technique of playing the straight-necked pipa in "Explanation of Names, Explanation of Musical Instruments".

"Push hands" was mentioned in the "Zhou Li, Autumn Officials Master of Ceremonies" of the Han Dynasty when talking about the gesture of bowing.

In modern times, the term "push hands" appeared in Tai Chi. Yang Luchan went to Beijing to teach Tai Chi in the palace. "

Push Hands Competition that Made Mistakes on Top of Mistakes

Push-hands competitions gradually emerged in the middle and late last century.
At that time, our Wu-style Tai Chi masters did not approve of it. "

As did and do some yang and other older taiii masters.
Be that as it may ...It is what most used to gage taiji skill, a good testing ground for those so inclined.

One of the biggest problems with CMA is that most people simply don't know how to enter or exit with the techniques. This issue causes Kung Fu to look like this.
Watch this video without sound and try to determine which guy is Jow Ga Kung Fu and which guy is kick boxing.

Spent a large part of my younger yrs disproving this among those I met.
The same question asked then as now....In CMA how come what is trained is not used as trained"

Among some of the answers for this...
fighting styles have changed, many CMA styles designed during a time period,
specifically against other styles of the day...

The training to bring about the skill sets needed not always practiced by those not needing the skill sets to the same level.

noted Hop Ga shifu "David Chin"

some of the training

David Chin, coaching his students for an upcoming match.
For those familiar with "long arm" they should be able to see some of the typical techniques use combined with other methods.