Twirling Sacrifice - Help!

[Doc]

My experience and knowledge in Kenpo is nowhere close to yours sir, but I am ready to debate you on this one.

But first, could you be more specific on the above quote...

Thanks,

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

A full nelson type attack sir as I understand it requires an attacker to place both of their arms under both your arms and apply pressure with both hands to the back of the head of neck. It is an old semi-sport wrestling move.

Unless you're in a state of diminished capacity significant enough to severely impair your startle reflex mechnisms, this is extremely difficult to apply even as a surprise attack from the rear as designed.

When the upper sides of the ribcage, upper back, or triceps tendons are touched or struck unanticipated, the startle reflex mechanism of the body will retreat the arms, and specifically the elbows to protect the rib cage. Once activated the arms are anatomically, extremely difficult to impossible to move unless there is voluntary compliance.

Experiment:

1) Stand naturally with your arms hanging at your side.

Have someone come from behind to apply a "full nelson." With the contact is felt, simply "flinch" your arms and elbows in as if surprised and don't move them. Not only will they be unable to move your arms away from your body, but they will be incapable of moving their arms through pass your ribcage to "snake" backwards to reach your neck.

2) Same thing with arms held straight out to the side.

An unnatural posture but still one that suggests a full nelson might be capable of being applied if the arms are up.

3) Same thing with your hands on top of your head.

Surely this should make the assault easy for the attacker, however when the starle reflex is activated and you "jerk" both arms downward and elbows inward to the ribcage, the physical advantage shifts to you, and away from the attackers negative body position, movement, and posture.

In my opinion sir. from an antatomical perspective this type assault is unlikely to occur outside of the WWF.

 

[pete]

hi doc... hope you are feeling well!

while i agree with what your experiment proves, i do not agree that a full nelson cannot be applied from a different entry point.

for instance, take a left step though punch as the initial attack. the defender responds with circling destruction, but let's say that on the right backfist, the defender also tugs the left wrist disrupting the attackers balance forward onto his left foot. you'll probably notice his right arm float upwards and back a bit away from his body as you tug him forward... so, we seize that opportunity to get behind him and trap his right wrist with our right forearm and pull back. now use your left hand to lift his left arm upwards, levering his neck into your right hand and moving his balance now to his right side. now, circle your left hand to the inside of his left forearm and slide it along controling his left arm until the hands meet. viola...

to enhance the leverage, rather than clasping the hands behind the neck, compress your elbows and place the hands over the top of the head pressing down and forward while placing your bent knee under his coccyx. owch. you can just feel the vertebrae popping.

i've done this in training with moderate resistance and when done properly, can control the opponent throughout the technique...try it~

pete

 

[Rich_Hale]

I once told Mr. Parker that I didn’t have much faith in any of the techniques used against grabbing attacks. Among other techniques, I became frustrated one day when I was teaching Begging Hands, because when I asked one of my students to grab my wrists, this guy clamped down on my wrists like I was in one of those si-fi movies where you sit in a chair and metal clamps flash out and clamp both your arms to the chair, with that unmistakable clang of no escape.

Just short of an embarrassing situation, I kicked him in the nuts (which he took as an indication to let go) and I pulled off the technique. I then told the class to let that be a lesson to them, but it was really a lesson to me.

So anyway, I was telling Mr. Parker about this and he told me two things. One was a story, as he always preferred to tell a story over a quick and simple answer, and the other was the simple answer.

His story (shortened for space) was about a big name wrestler that said he could put Mr. Parker in a killer hold that he could not get out of. Mr. Parker agreed to let himself be put in the wrestlers, break-breaking, hold and then agreed that he, in fact, could not escape from it. After the wrestler released him, Mr. Parker asked the wrestler to put him back in the hold again. Only this time when the wrestler attempted to put the hold on him, Mr. Parker countered every movement the wrestler made with powerful retaliation move of his own. After a few moments the wrestler complained that he couldn’t put Mr. Parker back into the hold if he didn’t stop moving around and whacking him, every time he reached for him. Mr. Parker said, “Exactly!”

The quick answer was to defend against a grab as if it were a punch, because there is not difference between an opponent hitting your in the throat or crushing your throat with iron grip. He said to defend against a grab before it “hits” you.

I now tell my students that if you have allowed your opponent to (totally) apply a full nelson before you attempt your escape - you may as well let them (totally) apply a punch to your face before attempting to block it.

That being said, I agree with Jamie’s assessment of Twirling Sacrifice being another phase of earlier full nelson techniques, but more in the category completion concept and a what-if situation than as an actual street defense.

As for having to allow someone to put me in a full nelson in order for it to happen, well one of my students (Free Taylor), who is a second black under me, went on to receive a black from the Machado Brothers (cousins of the Graices) in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and all I can tell you is if Free wants me in a full nelson, I will eventually be in a full nelson - no degree of cooperation from me needed.

 

[Doc]

hi doc... hope you are feeling well!

while i agree with what your experiment proves, i do not agree that a full nelson cannot be applied from a different entry point.

Hey Pete, thanks for the well wishes. One day at a time. Anyway, of course I never said it couldn't be applied under different circumstances. But the lesson is how difficult it is to actually use, and how if it is appled, how to get out of it.

As illustrated by my old friend Rich Hale's Parker Story, there are all manner of circumstances in the midst of combat that could find you in positions previously unconceived of.

However, "Twirling Sacrifice" is a specific technique for a specific stand up attack, and your example falls outside those parameters. That being said, there are lessons to be learned if one understands the necessary mechanics to extracate themselves, as well as in the failed attempt to apply it as outlined.

Although as I previously stated, we do not utilize this particualr technique because for our purposes it is unneccessary, we do practice the counter maneuvers inherent in that assault by teaching our interpretation of techniques like "Scrapping Hoof." Once again, a reminder that there are techniques that were direct carry overs from semi-sport wrestling and sport sparring, and not self-defense oriented, although physical lessons may be learned nevertheless.

 

[Doc]

I once told Mr. Parker that I didn’t have much faith in any of the techniques used against grabbing attacks. Among other techniques, I became frustrated one day when I was teaching Begging Hands, because when I asked one of my students to grab my wrists, this guy clamped down on my wrists like I was in one of those si-fi movies where you sit in a chair and metal clamps flash out and clamp both your arms to the chair, with that unmistakable clang of no escape.

Just short of an embarrassing situation, I kicked him in the nuts (which he took as an indication to let go) and I pulled off the technique. I then told the class to let that be a lesson to them, but it was really a lesson to me.

So anyway, I was telling Mr. Parker about this and he told me two things. One was a story, as he always preferred to tell a story over a quick and simple answer, and the other was the simple answer.

His story (shortened for space) was about a big name wrestler that said he could put Mr. Parker in a killer hold that he could not get out of. Mr. Parker agreed to let himself be put in the wrestlers, break-breaking, hold and then agreed that he, in fact, could not escape from it. After the wrestler released him, Mr. Parker asked the wrestler to put him back in the hold again. Only this time when the wrestler attempted to put the hold on him, Mr. Parker countered every movement the wrestler made with powerful retaliation move of his own. After a few moments the wrestler complained that he couldn’t put Mr. Parker back into the hold if he didn’t stop moving around and whacking him, every time he reached for him. Mr. Parker said, “Exactly!”

The quick answer was to defend against a grab as if it were a punch, because there is not difference between an opponent hitting your in the throat or crushing your throat with iron grip. He said to defend against a grab before it “hits” you.

I now tell my students that if you have allowed your opponent to (totally) apply a full nelson before you attempt your escape - you may as well let them (totally) apply a punch to your face before attempting to block it.

That being said, I agree with Jamie’s assessment of Twirling Sacrifice being another phase of earlier full nelson techniques, but more in the category completion concept and a what-if situation than as an actual street defense.

As for having to allow someone to put me in a full nelson in order for it to happen, well one of my students (Free Taylor), who is a second black under me, went on to receive a black from the Machado Brothers (cousins of the Graices) in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and all I can tell you is if Free wants me in a full nelson, I will eventually be in a full nelson - no degree of cooperation from me needed.

Yes Rich we spent alot of time discussing that very topic and why he chose to take that approch for some and not others. Of course we all know a good offense is better than a good defense, but we do not always have the luxury option of making that choice. I promise I will restore your faith in the grabbing techniques.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

I promise I will restore your faith in the grabbing techniques.

Good general rule of thumb: Don't grab Doc. Point and laugh from a safe distance, but maintain the safest range possible while doing so. Leastwizens, OUCH!

Regards,

D.

 

[Doc]

Ditto, the technique as in the unpublished manuals reads like this:
Just a slight variation.
-Michael

Hey Mr. B. The whole concrete head thing was a major discussion we had. Recognizing that if a person tried to place you in a "full nelson" and you executed a response that caused a person to hit his/her head on the ground, and he/she sustained serious injury or death, you would be legally culpable under California Law and could easily be charged with involuntary to voluntary manslaughter. Also recognizing that a prosecuter could possiblly produce a written manual with that specific response and intent outlined in writing could up the ante even more.

I'm also very familiar with the old "I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6." but as you know for those who subscribe to that, it really isn't that simple, and Ed Parker knew that. Having been in an altercation where he himself thought he had killed someone under similar conditions when a guys head hit the ground, Parker rethought his position, - after he stopped shaking. Yes he was a man, but it scared him to death because he thought he might have killed the guy. Nothing is ever as simple as it seems, as you know "Big Mike." Standing before judicial authority charged with taking a life whether it is because of a "Twirling Sacrifice," or because you hit someone in the throat for placing his hand on your shoulder ala "Sword & Hammer" could take the wind outta your sales and put racing stripes in your shorts. Not to mention take you away from hearth and home for a long time. Just something to thing about as we "two finger hook" and pop out an eyeball, or snap a neck in backbreaker. Lock and load, thirteen z nine call the station.

 

[kenpo3631]

First let me say ~ Doc, WELCOME BACK!

I look at Twirling Sacrifice as being related to Crashing Wings in that when you do Crashing Wings (Ideal Phase), you leave the opponent's base and move the upper body, in Twirling Sacrifice (Ideal Phase) it is reversed.

Just my thoughts.

 

[Doc]

First let me say ~ Doc, WELCOME BACK!

I look at Twirling Sacrifice as being related to Crashing Wings in that when you do Crashing Wings (Ideal Phase), you leave the opponent's base and move the upper body, in Twirling Sacrifice (Ideal Phase) it is reversed.

Just my thoughts.

Thank you sir, and I do agree with you. However the study of "abstract motion" and the applicaton of "human physical movment" are actually two extremes of the spectrum. "Motion" is, in and of itself, an abstract conceptual approach to anatomical, physically dynamic, and complex problems.

In many applications, (like punches) it can work very well, still in many others (like grabs, locks, and holds) it falls well short. "Twirling Sacrifice" is a classic example of the type of technique where "motion concepts" are irrelevant, and the "anatomical" must take prescedent. "motion" and "movement" are not the same thing.

In the many years I've studied from this perspective beginning specifically in the seventies, (and generally prior to that) the one thing I've learned and had pointed out to me is that in "motion" you deal in generalities. However in "anatomy," everything is specific, and there are very few simple "rules" to the learning process. The human body (depending on age) has approximately 206 bones in its rigid substructure, surrounded by miles of functional groups of connecting tissue. A change or tension, or movement in any one facet of the body unit, can and will have a significant impact on the unit as a whole. Or as I was taught, "everything matters." This is why general postures and execution ultimate fail.

This is also why grapplers are superior in their venue. Everything they do in physical interaction must be anatomically functional, and "motion" based concepts and ideas are severely tested in the bright light of reality grabbing you by the throat. Although they have philosophical deficiencies, they know what they physically do works for them.

I venture to say that if most allowed a "simple bear hug" to be applied by a skilled grappler, they might have a problem. Just something to think about while working on "Twirling Sacrifice," "Twisted Twig," "Grasp of Death," "Striking Serpants Head," etc. and the reason why some teachers say "move before he grabs you." Good advice IF you have the opportunity.

 

[Doc]

PS: One of my students called and reminded me to add "Squatting Sacrifice" to the list of sport wrestling showmanship techiques that have leaked into the motion curriculum as a primary example.

 

[jfarnsworth]

I venture to say that if most allowed a "simple bear hug" to be applied by a skilled grappler, they might have a problem. Just something to think about while working on "Twirling Sacrifice," "Twisted Twig," "Grasp of Death," "Striking Serpants Head," etc. and the reason why some teachers say "move before he grabs you." Good advice IF you have the opportunity.

Exactly. Any good wrestler that knows how the bear hug "REALLY" works you won't have the time for most of the techniques. :asian:

 

[Doc]

Exactly. Any good wrestler that knows how the bear hug "REALLY" works you won't have the time for most of the techniques. :asian:

Yes sir, but also for the record, we do have effective anatomical counters tried and tested against grapplers. Afterall, Mr. Parker's closet allies in the Martial Arts were grapplers, and he was a grappler himself.

 

[Seabrook]

A full nelson type attack sir as I understand it requires an attacker to place both of their arms under both your arms and apply pressure with both hands to the back of the head of neck. It is an old semi-sport wrestling move.

Unless you're in a state of diminished capacity significant enough to severely impair your startle reflex mechnisms, this is extremely difficult to apply even as a surprise attack from the rear as designed.

When the upper sides of the ribcage, upper back, or triceps tendons are touched or struck unanticipated, the startle reflex mechanism of the body will retreat the arms, and specifically the elbows to protect the rib cage. Once activated the arms are anatomically, extremely difficult to impossible to move unless there is voluntary compliance.

Experiment:

1) Stand naturally with your arms hanging at your side.

Have someone come from behind to apply a "full nelson." With the contact is felt, simply "flinch" your arms and elbows in as if surprised and don't move them. Not only will they be unable to move your arms away from your body, but they will be incapable of moving their arms through pass your ribcage to "snake" backwards to reach your neck.

2) Same thing with arms held straight out to the side.

An unnatural posture but still one that suggests a full nelson might be capable of being applied if the arms are up.

3) Same thing with your hands on top of your head.

Surely this should make the assault easy for the attacker, however when the starle reflex is activated and you "jerk" both arms downward and elbows inward to the ribcage, the physical advantage shifts to you, and away from the attackers negative body position, movement, and posture.

In my opinion sir. from an antatomical perspective this type assault is unlikely to occur outside of the WWF.

Now I see what you are saying Doc, and actually I am in agreement. But about the rarity of the attack, one could argue that is why there are so few techniques designed in EPAK for this particular attack, and why Twirling Sacrifice is a necessary technique in that it completes the third phase of two earlier techniques, namely, Scraping Hoof and Repeated Devastation.

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

 

[Seabrook]

hi doc... hope you are feeling well!

while i agree with what your experiment proves, i do not agree that a full nelson cannot be applied from a different entry point.

for instance, take a left step though punch as the initial attack. the defender responds with circling destruction, but let's say that on the right backfist, the defender also tugs the left wrist disrupting the attackers balance forward onto his left foot. you'll probably notice his right arm float upwards and back a bit away from his body as you tug him forward... so, we seize that opportunity to get behind him and trap his right wrist with our right forearm and pull back. now use your left hand to lift his left arm upwards, levering his neck into your right hand and moving his balance now to his right side. now, circle your left hand to the inside of his left forearm and slide it along controling his left arm until the hands meet. viola...

to enhance the leverage, rather than clasping the hands behind the neck, compress your elbows and place the hands over the top of the head pressing down and forward while placing your bent knee under his coccyx. owch. you can just feel the vertebrae popping.

i've done this in training with moderate resistance and when done properly, can control the opponent throughout the technique...try it~

pete

Anything is possible Pete but that's a heck of a lot of "if's" in there.

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

 

[Seabrook]

Good general rule of thumb: Don't grab Doc.

D.

I wouldn't. I would sneak attack him from behind, and then run for my life.

Actually, no, I wouldn't even risk that.

Doc, can we be friends?

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

 

[jfarnsworth]

Yes sir, but also for the record, we do have effective anatomical counters tried and tested against grapplers. Afterall, Mr. Parker's closet allies in the Martial Arts were grapplers, and he was a grappler himself.

Hmmm, now you have my interest.

 

[Doc]

Hmmm, now you have my interest.

Consider sir Ed Parker's background. He grew up in a poor (Palama) ghetto section of Hawaii, by his own words where, "fighting was a daily occurance for survival." The first thing you learn is "how to wrestle." Ed Parker's first formal martial arts training was in Judo. His next teacher, William Chow was heavily influenced by Henry Okazaki founder of DanZan Ryu Jiu-jitsu, and emphasized "realistic" (as opposed to sport) ground fighting in his teaching. Ed Parker's Black Belt Certificate lists jiujitsu as well as Kenpo. One of Ed Parker's closest friends from the island was Small Circle Jiu-Jitsu founder Wally Jay. One of his closest friends on the mainland was Gene LeBell. In fact in promoting a demonstration match between a mainland boxer, (Milo Savage) and a martial artist, he chose Gene LeBell to represent all martial artists. (Gene LeBell won by choking the boxer into submission). Ed Parker was an innovator and always on the cutting edge and forward thinking in everything he did. Just because he didn't address some things in one of his commercial versions of his arts, doesn't mean he didn't address it at all. Ed Parker tested everything he did with the persons he respected in the arts relative to his goals for what he was doing at the time. It was one of the reasons I remind people to not necessarily consider the Ed Parker kenpo they were/are exposed to as somehow definitive of all of Ed Parker's works. That would be limiting Ed Parker's knowledge to their knowledge of his works. I don't think any one person has the cashews to claim that.

 

[Doc]

I wouldn't. I would sneak attack him from behind, and then run for my life.

Actually, no, I wouldn't even risk that.

Doc, can we be friends?

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

Mr. Seabrook, I thought we were already friends.

PM me please.

 

[Doc]

Anything is possible Pete but that's a heck of a lot of "if's" in there.

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

Especially since we're talking about being "attacked" with a full nelson, not "attacking or countering" with a full nelson. The Negative Body Posture you must subject yourself to, to apply a full nelson makes you more vulnerable than your "victim."

 

[Doc]

Now I see what you are saying Doc, and actually I am in agreement. But about the rarity of the attack, one could argue that is why there are so few techniques designed in EPAK for this particular attack, and why Twirling Sacrifice is a necessary technique in that it completes the third phase of two earlier techniques, namely, Scraping Hoof and Repeated Devastation.

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

You mean the third phase of a technique that can't be done?