Twirling Sacrifice - Help!

[alphamartial]

Hello,

Wondering if anyone has advice on executing Twirling Sacrifice. How do you deal with the "What if you can't pick your attacker up?".

Thanks,
Chris H.

 

[satans.barber]

Hello,

Wondering if anyone has advice on executing Twirling Sacrifice. How do you deal with the "What if you can't pick your attacker up?".

Thanks,
Chris H.

We don't do the technique the same as EPAK people do (I can't say I like the original one too much to be honest) so I can't comment on that technique directly, but from a practical point of view why not graft to Crashing Wings instead?

Ian.

 

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

We don't do the technique the same as EPAK people do (I can't say I like the original one too much to be honest) so I can't comment on that technique directly, but from a practical point of view why not graft to Crashing Wings instead?

Ian.

Ian, you don't do the technique the same way, you have no idea what it entails. The two techniques are completely different in the nature of the attack. Should you attempt to do CW's, you're almost sure to end up on the ground with your opponent, which could be a good thing or bad thing for some. The graft would be more towards Grip of Death because of both yours, and your opponents given positions. Also, a very different version of Squatting Sacrifice from the outside if the opponents arms are not locked in comes to mind. There's still a few other grafts I know from that position but it wouldn't help the person because they probably don't know the extensions yet.

DarK LorD

 

[satans.barber]

Ian, you don't do the technique the same way, you have no idea what it entails. The two techniques are completely different in the nature of the attack. Should you attempt to do CW's, you're almost sure to end up on the ground with your opponent, which could be a good thing or bad thing for some. The graft would be more towards Grip of Death because of both yours, and your opponents given positions. Also, a very different version of Squatting Sacrifice from the outside if the opponents arms are not locked in comes to mind. There's still a few other grafts I know from that position but it wouldn't help the person because they probably don't know the extensions yet.

DarK LorD

I have seen the technique as executed in a traditional EPAK syllabus on Larry Tatum's video tape series which I have studied in depth, so to say I have "no idea what it entails" isn't exactly true.

Once you have catted behind your opponent if you can't manage to lift them (which was the original question) as far as I can see you may be able to use your elbows to the face and follow on appropriately, especially if you've used an equaliser of some sort to weaken their grip such as a rear head butt, stomp to the instep or groin strike.

Take it or leave it, I'm not arguing about it.

Ian.

 

[rmcrobertson]

I believe that what His Infernal Darkness is trying to point out that it's going to be a little hard to bring off "Crashing Wings," or anything like it, since your opponent has set a full nelson or something very similar on you, shoving your face down towards your knees. It's a technique used, you might say, against the "third stage," of this attack: there are two earlier techniques that aim against less-set locks.

And anyhoo, wouldn't it be easier to modify the technique by simply dumping them after grabbing one leg or both and kind of sitting back? That preserves the technique's integrity, as well as following out the logic of even using this technique--which presupposes that your head's down there anyway.

Oh yes--it is important for students to do everything they can to learn this technique in its ideal form, twirling and all.

 

[RaysOnAwaV]

There are times when the attacker does not let go. I simple slam him to the ground(aka WWF) knocking the wind out of him. At this point your arms should be free to attack with your short range weapons.


Ray

 

[Shodan]

Okay........well, we just worked on this tech. last night for the situation of not being able to pick someone up........what we did is after the take-down, we did a knee drop onto their head or clavicle instead......just one of many options......hope that helps.

:asian: :karate:

 

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

I have seen the technique as executed in a traditional EPAK syllabus on Larry Tatum's video tape series which I have studied in depth, so to say I have "no idea what it entails" isn't exactly true.

Ian.

So watching porn for years is going to show me how to do the wild monkey dance without actually doing it with someone, until it actually happens LOL, (been there, done that in my teenage years) that's the logic you're throwing at me. It's not quite the same with a live active partner on your back, trust me.

DarK LorD

 

[TwistofFat]

So watching porn for years is going to show me how to do the wild monkey dance without actually doing it with someone, until it actually happens LOL, (been there, done that in my teenage years) that's the logic you're throwing at me. It's not quite the same with a live active partner on your back, trust me.

DarK LorD

I studied and studied those films for years...I thought she was laughing because I was funny??!!:shrug:

 

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

There are times when the attacker does not let go. I simple slam him to the ground(aka WWF) knocking the wind out of him. At this point your arms should be free to attack with your short range weapons.


Ray

If you're attacker lets go of you you've missed the point of the technique and exactly what they're not supposed to do. If you grab someone's legs the natural instinct is to hang on to whatever is there to stay up, the defender uses this action to fuse his opponent to him an then into a solid object, at which point the opponent loses their clinch on you, followed by the extension of course.

DarK LorD

 

[Shodan]

Holy Hand Grenade!!!!!!!!!! Please just ignore my statements above since I cannot now edit them out........I am suffering from "pregnancy brain" right now.....so please forgive me for thinking about the wrong technique!! I was thinking of Twist of Fate not Twirling Sacrifice.......hey, they both start with a 'T' no??

Anyway, sorry about that.......now that I am on the right tech. Yeah.....we learned to just dump them on the ground (tripping them over your leg) if they were too heavy to Twirl.

:asian: :idunno:

 

[satans.barber]

So watching porn for years is going to show me how to do the wild monkey dance without actually doing it with someone, until it actually happens LOL, (been there, done that in my teenage years) that's the logic you're throwing at me. It's not quite the same with a live active partner on your back, trust me.

DarK LorD

So, by your logic, no tape of any kind can ever have any educational value, is that what you're saying? Hey, I tell you what, books are pretty useless too don't you think? I mean some of them don't even have pictures in!!!! Completely useless, let's burn them all.

Ian.

 

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

So, by your logic, no tape of any kind can ever have any educational value, is that what you're saying? Hey, I tell you what, books are pretty useless too don't you think? I mean some of them don't even have pictures in!!!! Completely useless, let's burn them all.

Ian.

That's not what was implied I can assure you. You offered a detailed analysis based on what you've seen on tape, not what you've done. You see, I've done both, for many, many years. You can learn off a tape, but until you actually apply the knowledge you gained from it, it serves no practical use other than a visual aid and artificial memory. So who is Mr. Tatum doing the technique on in the video BTW?

DarK LorD

 

[alphamartial]

Hi,

I posted the original question, but have been unable to check for replies until just now. I'm still looking for some practical advice on how to deal with an attacker that you can't pick up.

Shodan wrote:
>Yeah.....we learned to just dump them on the ground (tripping them over your leg) if they were too heavy to Twirl.

In my experience if an attacker is too big to pick up, it's going to be difficult tripping them over your leg and maintaining your balance. How are you actually tripping them? Over your left leg onto their back or something else?

---
Dark Kenpo Lord - I have some of the extensions, but not all. What would you suggest grafting into if you wrap your opponents legs, but then cannot lift them?

---
rmcrobertson wrote:
>And anyhoo, wouldn't it be easier to modify the technique by simply dumping them after grabbing one leg or both and kind of sitting back? That preserves the technique's integrity, as well as following out the logic of even using this technique--which presupposes that your head's down there anyway.

My goal is to preserve the integrity of the technique, so I like this idea. When you sit back are you staying on your feet, or going down with the attaker. It sounds like a wrestling style "hurdler" throw (not sure of the correct name).

---
I've had pretty good success by dropping my left knee to execute a takedown against larger opponents in Twirling Sacrifice, but some of my students end up on the ground with their opponent. I'm still looking for a better way.

Thanks for your input.

Respectfully,
Chris H.

 

[Rich_Hale]

This is a good question, and it will be continually asked by young and old alike.

When I was young, and new to the art, I would sometimes have difficulty lifting a larger opponent. As I grew in the art, I could slam opponent's larger than myself, but as I continued to grow (older), my lower back asked me (none to politely) not to be so rough on myself, so I simply re-read what Mr. Parker told us to do if the opponent was too big for the lifting.

Below is the technique and I have bolded Mr. Parker's suggestion.

TWIRLING SACRIFICE No. 17
(Rear: Full Nelson)

1. With your opponent strongly applying a Full Nelson, stiffen your body and force your neck back against your opponent’s hands. This is done for the purpose of having your opponent concentrate his efforts to force your head forward. Take advantage of his forward force and immediately have your right foot step to your right toward 3 o’clock into a horse stance (facing 12 o’clock).

2. Immediately slide you left foot to your right foot (into a transitional left close cat stance). Without hesitation have your left foot move around and back of your opponent’s right leg toward 7:30. As you bend over (borrowing the force of your opponent) have both of your arms grab the back of your opponent’s knees. (Have your left arm pass in front of your opponent’s legs before traveling to the back of your opponent’s left leg while your right arm simply reaches behind his right leg.)

3. Lift your opponent’s legs off the ground.

4. Twirl counterclockwise (360 degrees) by first having your left foot step back toward 4:30. Continue your twirl and have your right foot step toward 6 o’clock, then your left foot toward 7:30 to smash your opponent against a wall, pole, etc. If your opponent is too big and heavy just drop your opponent on his back with the possibility of having his head smash to the ground.

5. Left front crossover and cover out twice toward 2:30.

 

[Michael Billings]

Ditto, the technique as in the unpublished manuals reads like this:

11. TWIRLING SACRIFICE (Full Nelson)

1. With opponent applying full Nelson, have your right foot step to your right (toward 3:00) into a horse stance and immediately shift into a left close cat as your left foot cats behind and back of opponent's legs toward 7:30.

2. Without any hesitation, squat slightly as both of your arms grabs the back of opponent's knees.

3. Utilizing your legs, keeping your posture erect, lift opponent's legs off the ground.

4. Rotate your entire body counter clockwise and smash opponent against a wall, pole, etc. If opponent is too big and/or heavy, drop him on his back with the possibility of having opponent's head smash down on to the concrete, ground, etc.

Just a slight variation.

-Michael

 

[Seabrook]

So, by your logic, no tape of any kind can ever have any educational value, is that what you're saying? Hey, I tell you what, books are pretty useless too don't you think? I mean some of them don't even have pictures in!!!! Completely useless, let's burn them all.

Ian.

Sure tapes can have educational value, but all Clyde meant was that it is a heck of a lot different in front of a live attacker.

As an example, there are a lot of boxing fans out there. One can watch all of the 1980s and early 1990s Mike Tyson fights that he wants, but if they have never been in the ring before, viewing those old tapes only serve as relaxing couch potato nights of entertainment. Without real experience in fighting, one's chances of being able to apply these ring strategies and tactics are about as good as me endeavoring to jump over the moon (oh wait a minute, that was a cow).

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

 

[Seabrook]

Twirling Sacrifice is the third phase of two earlier techniques. When the opponent yanks us down with his hands (full nelson), we take an angle of least resistance, and put the opponent's knees together as we pick him up (this makes throwing the opponent a heck of a lot easier on your back). We then throw the opponent into a solid object.

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

 

[Doc]

Twirling Sacrifice is the third phase of two earlier techniques. When the opponent yanks us down with his hands (full nelson), we take an angle of least resistance, and put the opponent's knees together as we pick him up (this makes throwing the opponent a heck of a lot easier on your back). We then throw the opponent into a solid object.

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

Hey Mr. Seabrook. You know I went around with the "Old Man" with this technique in the mid-eighties when we were working on some unique counters for uniformed law enforcement personnel. The history of this and some of the other techniques in the motion system are carry overs from the DanZan Ryu Jiu-Jitsu infusion, and then later Gene LeBell suggesting some sport grappling counters as preparation for other teachings. By Mr. Parker's own words, "Twirling Sacrifice" as a stand alone functional technique is impratical. An attacker is physically incapable of applying a ful nelson without your complete cooperation in some manner. Although in my teachings we still perform physical mechanisms designed to counter "full nelson" type assaults, "Twirling Sacrifice is not in the curriculum for many of the reasons previously mentioned, including "striking the head on the concrete."

 

[Seabrook]

An attacker is physically incapable of applying a ful nelson without your complete cooperation in some manner.

My experience and knowledge in Kenpo is nowhere close to yours sir, but I am ready to debate you on this one.

But first, could you be more specific on the above quote...

Thanks,

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com