Train MA for self-cultivation

[geezer]

I don't know if they keep stats on this. There are plenty of anecdotal examples out there, FWIW.
One example off that dome I can think of....

We all love stories like that. And we love to re-tell them, again and again.

On the other hand, how many are true, or even if "kinda sorta" true, are tremendously exaggerated?

...and how many sad or negative stories that are true are never re-told because they are ...well frankly, bummers?

Like all the injuries and deaths involving firearms "accidents", suicides, and children getting ahold of a loaded firearm left lying around ..."for self defense"?

This is where good data helps us get a clearer picture of the real world rather than relying on anecdotal evidence.

 

[Urban Trekker]

We all love stories like that. And we love to re-tell them, again and again.

On the other hand, how many are true, or even if "kinda sorta" true, are tremendously exaggerated?

...and how many sad or negative stories that are true are never re-told because they are ...well frankly, bummers?

Like all the injuries and deaths involving firearms "accidents", suicides, and children getting ahold of a loaded firearm left lying around ..."for self defense"?

This is where good data helps us get a clearer picture of the real world rather than relying on anecdotal evidence.

I would argue that the measures necessary to prevent the accidents that you mention require far less time and money than what one would spend on martial arts training.

 

[Dirty Dog]

We all love stories like that. And we love to re-tell them, again and again.

On the other hand, how many are true, or even if "kinda sorta" true, are tremendously exaggerated?

...and how many sad or negative stories that are true are never re-told because they are ...well frankly, bummers?

Like all the injuries and deaths involving firearms "accidents", suicides, and children getting ahold of a loaded firearm left lying around ..."for self defense"?

This is where good data helps us get a clearer picture of the real world rather than relying on anecdotal evidence.

There are no good data, really. And what data there is tends to be provided by those (on both sides) with an agenda.
However, one thing I've noticed in my own experience with those "accidents" is that "we didn't think they even knew we had a gun" is a common refrain. Which makes me think the problem may be less that the gun was THERE, and more that the person was never taught gun safety. Because it's treated as a big secret.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

In the following conversation, does the teacher

- tell the truth,
- lie to his student, or
- make a joke?

A: Dear teacher! Why do you ask me to smash the head of my dummy on the ground 100 times daily?
B: This training will make you to be a better person.
A: ???

 

[Steve]

Regarding guns, my opinion on the subject continues to evolve, the more mass shootings we have. I think guns FOR self defense is less practical than self defense FROM people with guns. In other words, my opinion is that guns are more of a problem than a solution. As the old saying goes, sometimes the cure is worse than the disease. I understand that not everyone agrees with this opinion.

 

[Urban Trekker]

I think guns FOR self defense is less practical than self defense FROM people with guns.

So when police are out to apprehend suspects that are known to be armed, they should go in using their fists?

 

[Urban Trekker]

In the following conversation, does the teacher

- tell the truth,
- lie to his student, or
- make a joke?

A: Dear teacher! Why do you ask me to smash the head of my dummy on the ground 100 times daily?
B: This training will make you to be a better person.
A: ???

View attachment 26898

Make a joke.

I think it's normal for any organization that trains people to do things that can harm others to teach values that go along with it.

Look at the military, for example.

 

[Steve]

So when police are out to apprehend suspects that are known to be armed, they should go in using their fists?

Not talking about people who have violent professions. Though, I would say some cops don't need guns. Some do, certainly, but the idea that all or most cops need guns doesn't make sense to me. Maybe that's a topic for another thread, though.

 

[Urban Trekker]

Not talking about people who have violent professions. Though, I would say some cops don't need guns. Some do, certainly, but the idea that all or most cops need guns doesn't make sense to me. Maybe that's a topic for another thread, though.

Being in a violent profession doesn't make "bringing fists to a gunfight" any more or less a bad idea.

 

[Steve]

Being in a violent profession doesn't make "bringing fists to a gunfight" any more or less a bad idea.

That's true. I understand what you're saying, but not why. Is there something specific that I wrote that you have a question about? I feel like you and I are talking about two different things.

 

[MetalBoar]

If self-defense is your main concern, then purchase a firearm, get your conceal carry permit, and call it a day. You can get all of this for the price of three months of martial arts training or less.

I think I may have said this before on MT, but if self-defense is your motive for martial arts training; you're soon going to realize that you're spending time in the dojo away from friends and family several times a week, all to reduce the likelihood of losing a fist fight. That's not worth it, if you don't enjoy your time at the dojo. If you don't, you're better off spending that time with family and friends, and just taking a loss on the streets. Or just carry a firearm. Going to the range once every other week is enough.

I've said before that if your lifestyle is such that you have a legitimate concern that people will regularly, or even occasionally, try to kill you it's probably a good idea to buy a gun and learn how to use it, or better yet, change your lifestyle if you can. I agree that if you have serious self defense needs a handgun is probably a better choice than karate or BJJ, or at least better than a karate or BJJ alone. So we're mostly in agreement up to this point.

That being said, even if self defense is your main concern, doing martial arts has a lot of side benefits. You say that it causes you to spend time away from friends and family several times a week. That's true for some, but I've found that I've made several of my closest friends by meeting people in martial arts classes and my wife has a lot of hobbies and interests of her own that she can usually schedule for the 2-3 nights a week I'm doing martial arts. Plus, we should all be working out if we want to be healthy and even if you're taking martial arts for self defense it's going to do double duty to some extent in meeting your fitness needs. That being said, I do completely agree that if you don't enjoy martial arts you probably shouldn't be doing them.

The other place that our views differ is how much work it takes to become proficient enough with a handgun that it's a good choice for self defense. Way back in the early '90's I lived in a violent place. After the second time I was shot at/near I decided to buy a handgun and learn how to use it. I trained regularly (at least once a week, not the every other week you're advocating) and I had both an MP and another friend with a lot of competition experience giving me free lessons and it took a long time to get to where I felt like I had a halfway decent handle on all the things I needed to be able to use a handgun reliably and responsibly in a real life situation. Maybe I'm just inept, but I don't really feel like it was less time and effort than I would have had to put into boxing or wrestling to get significant self defense value out of those either. Now sure, a handgun is a lot more lethal than boxing if you're in a life or death situation but it's a lot less versatile as well, utility is largely determined by your circumstance.

 

[Buka]

The majority of students that I’ve taught over the years were young impressionable men. All the students that I’ve taught over the years were drawn to the Martial Arts for one reason or the other.

I had two goals in mind, teaching people how to fight and “the development of character” in students. That may sound like holier than though BS, but it was not presented as so. It wasn’t presented or mentioned at all.

When you run a fighting gym and have young guys learning how to fight you have a responsibility not to create problems in what you teach them.

If you draw upon what drew them to Martial Arts in the first place it’s fairly easy to do. If they’re working physically harder than they ever had before, they’ll feel and see the changes in their bodies and minds.
That’s when it’s easy to teach them the ways of Budo and Bushido. They not only eat it up, if it’s presented properly, they start to adopt in in their lives.

It also helps when there’s hard core fighters that were there ahead of them teaching classes and behaving the same way. We were also blessed that there were a boot load of first responders both training and teaching.

Every year, at least once or twice, we’d have classes taught by EMTs in proper first aid and what to do and not do in emergencies. Nobody ever missed those classes. They loved them.
Since guns came into this thread, I’ll tell you what we used to do. To the small group of students that made it to brown belt, we would teach close quarter weapons disarming as well as weapon retention.

That would start with an two day eight hour course taught by Boston PD range masters in gun safety. Parents were welcome to come in and take it as well.

Then the same range masters would bring everyone to an outdoor range (parents included) and everyone was taught to shoot a variety of weapons

I do not believe you can teach weapons disarming to people who have never used said weapon.

And if you’re introducing young people to weapons, you damn well better be developing their character.

And Martial Arts is the best way I have ever seen to do so.

And before you give me the “that’s a parents job” that’s why their parents, or parent in most cases, sent them to us.

Martial Arts is more than hard fighting. But hard fighting should be present in all Martial Arts.

Just an old man’s two cents.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

This is my concern. When someone swings his Guan Do toward his opponent's head, it's difficult for me to think that he is training for the world peace.

 

[Steve]

The majority of students that I’ve taught over the years were young impressionable men. All the students that I’ve taught over the years were drawn to the Martial Arts for one reason or the other.

I had two goals in mind, teaching people how to fight and “the development of character” in students. That may sound like holier than though BS, but it was not presented as so. It wasn’t presented or mentioned at all.

When you run a fighting gym and have young guys learning how to fight you have a responsibility not to create problems in what you teach them.

If you draw upon what drew them to Martial Arts in the first place it’s fairly easy to do. If they’re working physically harder than they ever had before, they’ll feel and see the changes in their bodies and minds.
That’s when it’s easy to teach them the ways of Budo and Bushido. They not only eat it up, if it’s presented properly, they start to adopt in in their lives.

It also helps when there’s hard core fighters that were there ahead of them teaching classes and behaving the same way. We were also blessed that there were a boot load of first responders both training and teaching.

Every year, at least once or twice, we’d have classes taught by EMTs in proper first aid and what to do and not do in emergencies. Nobody ever missed those classes. They loved them.
Since guns came into this thread, I’ll tell you what we used to do. To the small group of students that made it to brown belt, we would teach close quarter weapons disarming as well as weapon retention.

That would start with an two day eight hour course taught by Boston PD range masters in gun safety. Parents were welcome to come in and take it as well.

Then the same range masters would bring everyone to an outdoor range (parents included) and everyone was taught to shoot a variety of weapons

I do not believe you can teach weapons disarming to people who have never used said weapon.

And if you’re introducing young people to weapons, you damn well better be developing their character.

And Martial Arts is the best way I have ever seen to do so.

And before you give me the “that’s a parents job” that’s why their parents, or parent in most cases, sent them to us.

Martial Arts is more than hard fighting. But hard fighting should be present in all Martial Arts.

Just an old man’s two cents.

Nothing wrong with helping folks become better versions of themselves. I just don't believe it is unique to martial arts. In fact, I believe it's intrinsic to just about any activity. A football coach could say the same thing. So could a music teacher. Every coach and mentor wants to teach the student X and also help them to become better people.

 

[Urban Trekker]

Okay, so help me understand what some are suggesting.

Do martial arts schools teach people to kick and punch other human beings and leave at that, and are paying lip service if they claim to do more than that?

Or is there objection to schools teaching more, and that martial arts schools should only teach people how to kick and punch other human beings, and leave it at that?

 

[drop bear]

I thought MA training is as simple as

- fist meet face, and
- head meet earth.

When someone says, "I train MA for self-cultivation", What does he mean?

I have Googled and get this, "Self-cultivation or personal cultivation is the development of one's mind or capacities through one's own efforts."

I understand each and every word, but I have no idea what the whole sentence is talking about (my IQ score is 145).

Your thought?

View attachment 26892
View attachment 26893

 

[Dirty Dog]

Okay, so help me understand what some are suggesting.

Do martial arts schools teach people to kick and punch other human beings and leave at that, and are paying lip service if they claim to do more than that?

Or is there objection to schools teaching more, and that martial arts schools should only teach people how to kick and punch other human beings, and leave it at that?

You really do like your black & white, either/or answers. Nobody is suggesting either option, so far as I can see. Other than you, of course.
People are saying that different people get different things out of training, and that the same person may get different things out of their training at different times of their life. I've certainly seen students learn a lot about fighting, but with little personal growth. I've also seen students have a lot of personal growth while not really being very good at fighting.

 

[geezer]

...one thing I've noticed in my own experience with those "accidents" is that "we didn't think they even knew we had a gun" is a common refrain. Which makes me think the problem may be less that the gun was THERE, and more that the person was never taught gun safety.

Yes, teaching responsible gun ownership is important. I'd like to see proper firearm use, safety and marksmanship taught in public schools. People think that's weird. But since we live in a society with a lot of guns, it makes total sense to me. I learned that stuff hunting with my dad and grandad, and even in the boy scouts (they had a great little range at Camp Geronimo!).

My other comment regarding accidental deaths and suicides was about more than gun safety. A martial art associate of mine, a vet, MA school owner and firearms safety instructor, went through some hard times recently including financial troubles (nearly closing his school) and a divorce. A friend stopped in to check on him and found him distraught and putting a loaded pistol in his mouth. Fortunately, a tragedy was averted. I've lost other friends to suicide by firearms.

Without firearms close by, you often hear about "attempted suicide". With them, it's a done deal. Not sure what the answer is.

 

[geezer]

This is my concern. When someone swings his Guan Do toward his opponent's head, it's difficult for me to think that he is training for the world peace.

That's the paradox of the martial arts. You even see it in the most physically brutal of the martial arts, like boxing, MMA, Dog Brothers Stick Fighting... two individuals beating the bloody tar out of each other, then smiling through the blood and sweat, hugging and patting each other on the back when the bout is over.

Maybe there is some kind of lesson in there for everybody?

 

[geezer]

I would argue that the measures necessary to prevent the accidents that you mention require far less time and money than what one would spend on martial arts training.

Hmm. So treating PTSD, depression, and other mental health issues (that can affect any of us, if we are being honest about it) is cheap and easy? Damn, guess my brother lost his eldest son to schizophrenia (and suicide) 'cause he's a tightwad!

Dude, I don't think you are really thinking these issues through. They are complex. And don't get me wrong. I'm not "blaming guns". Like I said ..."complex".