"Traditional Marriage" ??

[Master Dan]

Freedom of religion is part and parcel to our culture and constitution of the US however that should mean that any church that does not practice same sex marriage should not be forced to perform the marriage and register that union under thier church documents. Civil unions should have equal rights legally as per any business relationship. If they seek a religous confirmation of that then they need to join or have sanction by a church that approves such unions I am sure given the history of Priest Craft or rent a conection to God it should not be hard to find?

 

[granfire]

Freedom of religion is part and parcel to our culture and constitution of the US however that should mean that any church that does not practice same sex marriage should not be forced to perform the marriage and register that union under thier church documents. Civil unions should have equal rights legally as per any business relationship. If they seek a religous confirmation of that then they need to join or have sanction by a church that approves such unions I am sure given the history of Priest Craft or rent a conection to God it should not be hard to find?

And churches have the right to not marry hetero people either if they don't want to (something the Catholic church is known to make use of, I am sure others have done like wise, like LDS...)

That is not up for discussion.

marriage is a worldly thing, meaning the rights and privileges are of the secular nature, like tax breaks etc, and the other myriad of things that have been mentioned before many times over, all the things a married couple automatically gets with one single signature.

In your line of thinking catholic and other religions should not get mix in marriage (religious grounds) and that needs to be anchored in state law.

We all would laugh and point out how silly that is (well not for some aspects of the religiously involved, marrying outside the faith is a big thing) but that is not something you put into state law, because some people don't care and want to marry that other person anyhow.

 

[CanuckMA]

Exempting religious institutions and clergy is easy to do. has been done here. I'm not sure how it works in a church, but at a Jewish wedding, there are 3 distinct steps.

1) the couple signs the civil marriage certificate.
2) the couple signs the ketuba, Jewish marriage contract
3) public ceremony

After step 1, the couple is legally married.

 

[Tez3]

In France the only thing that is valid is the civil marriage ceremony in the town hall, the religious part/ceremony is up to couples.

 

[elder999]

In France the only thing that is valid is the civil marriage ceremony in the town hall, the religious part/ceremony is up to couples.

It's not too different here-the only thing that is valid in terms of taxes, property rights, etc., is the civil recognition-there need not be a "civil ceremony," per se, though. A couple obtains a marriage license from the state, and that license can be ratified at the conclusion of any ceremony-ministers of all sorts are issued state seals to do so-once the license has been properly witnessed and sealed, and the couple brings it back to the clerk's office where it was issued, they're legally married. Since we have "freedom of religion," here, anyone can pay the fees and register as an officiant for marriages. My son has officiated at five weddings, and I've done about twice that many. I've also turned away three couples.

 

[granfire]

In France the only thing that is valid is the civil marriage ceremony in the town hall, the religious part/ceremony is up to couples.

Same in Germany.

The big shindig in the church is just for show. The real thing happened the day before (usually) at the courthouse)

 

[cdunn]

As I look at my oncoming (hetero) marriage, the Big Deal, as I see it, is basically this - Marriage, in the modern sense, is how a couple founds a family by choice. The couple declares it to family and society, and family and society accepts it, plus or minus some grumbling from individuals who may or may not be involved. That family remains a family unless that couple chooses to dissolve it, regardless of the existance or non of children. Telling gay couples they can't get married, is bascially telling them they're not a good enough couple to be a family. It does not force the breaking of religious sensibilities: There are many religous authorities who will witness the marriage anyway, and there are many secular authorities who are capable of doing so as well. So, you are harming an entire class of people for no benefit to society, and you are protecting the rights of none.

That, I believe, is wrong.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Marriage, being a right, should be open to all.

Funny, the US Supreme Court already said that.

Marriage is one of the "basic civil rights of man," fundamental to our very existence and survival.... To deny this fundamental freedom on so unsupportable a basis as the racial classifications embodied in these statutes, classifications so directly subversive of the principle of equality at the heart of the Fourteenth Amendment, is surely to deprive all the State's citizens of liberty without due process of law. The Fourteenth Amendment requires that the freedom of choice to marry not be restricted by invidious racial discrimination. Under our Constitution, the freedom to marry, or not marry, a person of another race resides with the individual and cannot be infringed by the State.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loving_v._Virginia

Eventually, they will rule the same way for same-sex marriages.

What the religions, faiths, belief systems, etc do will remain their business.

But tax breaks, visitation, inheritance, adoption, children, homes, health benefits and more will go as they should.

 

[granfire]

anthropologist: When Same-Sex Marriage Was a Christian Rite


I have not read it yet, but it looks interesting....

 

[Master Dan]

Bob regardless of some of the negative or codescending tone to some of the posts back at you this has been a good thread with interesting and informational posts by many. I think you are saying that marriage according to the state is a civil thing and has no bearing on any particular church? Any one or anything for that matter can be married depending on the laws of that state? and churches are free to marry who they please. In my church my wife and I have a civil marriage possibly this year after I recieve a Temple Recomend we can then go to the temple and have a Temple marriage.

I find one thing interesting on the time line of traditional marriage some saying 9th or 12 century? For those who believe in the bible it started in Genisis how old is that? And God created a woman for man not sister brother or buddy? However that is for people who believe in the bible and God and there has always been free agency for a person to choose. Now you could argue there is no mention of a traditional marriage cerimony in Genisis however there are those that say as far as that book is written or understood? We don't know there wasn't? Regardless we all have the freedom to believe what we want with out persecution.

Thanks for your work and thoughts

 

[Omar B]

Wait, are some really arguing a case for marriage from a standpoint of theology? Nothing like stories from a bunch of dusty old dead guys to lead your life by right.

Easter Bunny, Santa, god or gods whatever other character you can come up with had nothing to do with the free association of two individuals in love.

 

[granfire]

Wait, are some really arguing a case for marriage from a standpoint of theology? Nothing like stories from a bunch of dusty old dead guys to lead your life by right.

Easter Bunny, Santa, god or gods whatever other character you can come up with had nothing to do with the free association of two individuals in love.

not even going with love...
Financial need an carnal urges...

 

[CanuckMA]

Bob regardless of some of the negative or codescending tone to some of the posts back at you this has been a good thread with interesting and informational posts by many. I think you are saying that marriage according to the state is a civil thing and has no bearing on any particular church? Any one or anything for that matter can be married depending on the laws of that state? and churches are free to marry who they please. In my church my wife and I have a civil marriage possibly this year after I recieve a Temple Recomend we can then go to the temple and have a Temple marriage.

I find one thing interesting on the time line of traditional marriage some saying 9th or 12 century? For those who believe in the bible it started in Genisis how old is that? And God created a woman for man not sister brother or buddy? However that is for people who believe in the bible and God and there has always been free agency for a person to choose. Now you could argue there is no mention of a traditional marriage cerimony in Genisis however there are those that say as far as that book is written or understood? We don't know there wasn't? Regardless we all have the freedom to believe what we want with out persecution.

Thanks for your work and thoughts

According to our calendar, Genesis starts 5772 years ago. Abraham is around 4,000 years ago. The giving of Torah at Sinai is roughly 3,000 ago. There is no mention of marriage until Noah. Totah focuses more on the Patriarch, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. They were all polygamists. It's pretty hard to make a cogent argument for one man and one woman only using the Bible as source material.

 

[Omar B]

I said "love" because usually when I speak freely I tend to get whole heaping piles of hate email from the christians, jews and jedi alike. I always religion was a way to bring people together, but all these rules about can only serve to divide.

 

[seasoned]

Then there is the part that says "go ye out and multiply".

 

[seasoned]

[TD="class: btext, colspan: 2"] [TD="class: orange2"]

New International Version (©1984)
As for you, be fruitful and increase in number; multiply on the earth and increase upon it."
New Living Translation (©2007)
Now be fruitful and multiply, and repopulate the earth."
English Standard Version (©2001)
And you, be fruitful and multiply, teem on the earth and multiply in it.”
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"As for you, be fruitful and multiply; Populate the earth abundantly and multiply in it."
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
And you, be ye fruitful, and multiply; bring forth abundantly in the earth, and multiply therein.
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Be fertile, and increase in number. Spread over the earth, and increase."
King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
And you, be you fruitful, and multiply; bring forth abundantly in the earth, and multiply therein.
American King James Version
And you, be you fruitful, and multiply; bring forth abundantly in the earth, and multiply therein.
American Standard Version
And you, be ye fruitful, and multiply; Bring forth abundantly in the earth, and multiply therein.
Douay-Rheims Bible
But increase you and multiply, and go upon the earth, and fill it.
Darby Bible Translation
And ye, be fruitful and multiply: swarm on the earth, and multiply on it.
English Revised Version
And you, be ye fruitful, and multiply; bring forth abundantly in the earth, and multiply therein.
Webster's Bible Translation
And you, be ye fruitful, and multiply, bring forth abundantly in the earth, and multiply therein.
World English Bible
Be fruitful and multiply. Bring forth abundantly in the earth, and multiply in it." Young's Literal Translation
And ye, be fruitful and multiply, teem in the earth, and multiply in it.'[/TD]

Takes two to tango............... :rofl:
[/TD]

 

[Omar B]

Assuming we take the bible as a valid source right. Not everyone is a christian or thinks what happened in there had any bearing on our modern world.

 

[Josh Oakley]

[TD="class: btext, colspan: 2"] [TD="class: orange2"]

New International Version (©1984)
As for you, be fruitful and increase in number; multiply on the earth and increase upon it."
New Living Translation (©2007)
Now be fruitful and multiply, and repopulate the earth."
English Standard Version (©2001)
And you, be fruitful and multiply, teem on the earth and multiply in it.”
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"As for you, be fruitful and multiply; Populate the earth abundantly and multiply in it."
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
And you, be ye fruitful, and multiply; bring forth abundantly in the earth, and multiply therein.
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Be fertile, and increase in number. Spread over the earth, and increase."
King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
And you, be you fruitful, and multiply; bring forth abundantly in the earth, and multiply therein.
American King James Version
And you, be you fruitful, and multiply; bring forth abundantly in the earth, and multiply therein.
American Standard Version
And you, be ye fruitful, and multiply; Bring forth abundantly in the earth, and multiply therein.
Douay-Rheims Bible
But increase you and multiply, and go upon the earth, and fill it.
Darby Bible Translation
And ye, be fruitful and multiply: swarm on the earth, and multiply on it.
English Revised Version
And you, be ye fruitful, and multiply; bring forth abundantly in the earth, and multiply therein.
Webster's Bible Translation
And you, be ye fruitful, and multiply, bring forth abundantly in the earth, and multiply therein.
World English Bible
Be fruitful and multiply. Bring forth abundantly in the earth, and multiply in it." Young's Literal Translation
And ye, be fruitful and multiply, teem in the earth, and multiply in it.'[/TD]

Takes two to tango............... :rofl:
[/TD]

Trust me. It CAN be done with more than two.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

 

[granfire]

[TD="class: btext, colspan: 2"] [TD="class: orange2"]

New International Version (©1984)
As for you, be fruitful and increase in number; multiply on the earth and increase upon it."
New Living Translation (©2007)
Now be fruitful and multiply, and repopulate the earth."
English Standard Version (©2001)
And you, be fruitful and multiply, teem on the earth and multiply in it.”
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"As for you, be fruitful and multiply; Populate the earth abundantly and multiply in it."
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
And you, be ye fruitful, and multiply; bring forth abundantly in the earth, and multiply therein.
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Be fertile, and increase in number. Spread over the earth, and increase."
King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
And you, be you fruitful, and multiply; bring forth abundantly in the earth, and multiply therein.
American King James Version
And you, be you fruitful, and multiply; bring forth abundantly in the earth, and multiply therein.
American Standard Version
And you, be ye fruitful, and multiply; Bring forth abundantly in the earth, and multiply therein.
Douay-Rheims Bible
But increase you and multiply, and go upon the earth, and fill it.
Darby Bible Translation
And ye, be fruitful and multiply: swarm on the earth, and multiply on it.
English Revised Version
And you, be ye fruitful, and multiply; bring forth abundantly in the earth, and multiply therein.
Webster's Bible Translation
And you, be ye fruitful, and multiply, bring forth abundantly in the earth, and multiply therein.
World English Bible
Be fruitful and multiply. Bring forth abundantly in the earth, and multiply in it." Young's Literal Translation
And ye, be fruitful and multiply, teem in the earth, and multiply in it.'[/TD]

Takes two to tango............... :rofl:[/TD]

true enough, but there are enough non-Christians doing the Tango, it is getting rather crowded on this planet....

 

[granfire]

I said "love" because usually when I speak freely I tend to get whole heaping piles of hate email from the christians, jews and jedi alike. I always religion was a way to bring people together, but all these rules about can only serve to divide.

In case you have not noticed: Throughout history 'Love' has always been more threatening than hate....