Tradition

[Kacey]

A thread in Taekwon-Do pointed out the problems created by following tradition without understanding what started the tradition. The following story (admittedly and intentionally not MA-related) demonstrates what I am talking about:

A young mother is preparing a Brisket one Friday for dinner. Her daughter watches with interest as the mother slices off the ends of the Brisket before placing it in the roasting pan.

The young girl asks her mother why she did this. The mother pauses for a moment and then says, "You know, I am not sure.....this is the way I always saw my mother make a brisket. Let's call Grandma and ask her. "

So, she phones the grandmother and asks why they always slice the ends off the brisket before roasting. The Grandmother thinks for a moment and then says. "You know, I am not sure why, this is the way I always saw MY mother make a brisket."

Now the two women are very curious, so they pay a visit to the great-grandmother in the nursing home. "You know when we make a brisket," they explain, "we always slice off the ends before roasting. Why is that?"

"I don't know why you do it" says the old woman, "but I never had a pan that was large enough!"

What traditions do you follow without knowing why you follow them?

 

[terryl965]

Absolutely none everything I do is because it was handed down to me and explain to me over and over again.

I believe this will be agreat thread.

Good Job Kacey

 

[exile]

A thread in Taekwon-Do pointed out the problems created by following tradition without understanding what started the tradition. The following story (admittedly and intentionally not MA-related) demonstrates what I am talking about...

What traditions do you follow without knowing why you follow them?

I love that story, and it's absolutely perfect as an illustration of the general point.

Here are a couple of things I do without knowing exactly why, apart from the fact that that's how we do them in my dojang:

(i) Our front stances involve bringing the rear leg next to the front leg on a diagonal straight line, then stepping it out again along another diagonal line that's the mirror image of the first (with knees flexible and bent through the whole movement).

(ii) We use very low stances both for hyungs performance and also for individual technique drills.

Both (i) and (ii) are technical elements inherited through our Song Moo Kwan lineage. But I'm not really sure why we do them that way. I've no strong intuitive sense that either of them is wrong, but I'm not sure what right-vs.-wrong in these areas would be determined by---i.e., what rational criteria of optimum performance are at issue, such that (i)-(ii) either do or do not satisfy them.

There are also a number of moves in some of the Palgwes that I practice that I still haven't worked out plausible combat interpretations for, e.g., the elaborate scissor block that is the first move in Palgwe Oh-Jang, which is followed by a double low knife-hand block with turn to the left. I am not clear on what the effective bunkai for that initial block are. This is a bit different from (i)-(ii), though---because I have some idea of what the covert source of this block must be---some combat technique that I just can't see yet, probably a locking-plus-throwing move. (i)-(ii) though could reflect bit of quirky accident just as idiosyncratic as the conditions under which, as Kacey explained on the ITF/WTF thread, Gen. Choi's students wound up promoting a version of normal up/down movement exaggerated to the point of distortion.

 

[morph4me]

There are probably some that I do without knowing why, but I can't think of any offhand right now. What I do find happening lately, usually while I'm stretching and meditatng, is that things come to me about some of the techniques I practice and why I do them a certain way. I take what I think I've learned and experiment, if it works, I assume I found out why we do things a certain way, if they don't work, I learn yet another lesson in humility.

There is a technique that I was taught that involves getting into a very low stance and then standing up, using my body to apply leverage. I never understood why that was necessary, then it came to me. My instructor stands about 6' 2" and in every picture of him training in Japan, all of his classmates look to be about 5' 5", he had to adjust for the difference in hieght, and taught the technique with that adjustment built in. The explanation may or may not be correct, but I have changed the way I do the technique and it works. I imagine there may be alot of that kind of thing in the martial arts that become tradition.

 

[Makalakumu]

(i) Our front stances involve bringing the rear leg next to the front leg on a diagonal straight line, then stepping it out again along another diagonal line that's the mirror image of the first (with knees flexible and bent through the whole movement).

This indicates the direction of the footwork. When in front stance, techniques are performed by stepping off-line at 45 degree angles.

(ii) We use very low stances both for hyungs performance and also for individual technique drills.

Often, low stances indicate throwing techniques. Learn the throw Tai-otoshi and it becomes clearer.

 

[exile]

This indicates the direction of the footwork. When in front stance, techniques are performed by stepping off-line at 45 degree angles....Often, low stances indicate throwing techniques. Learn the throw Tai-otoshi and it becomes clearer.

Hey, UpNKy, that's great info---many thanks!

 

[charyuop]

Very low stances have different purposes according to the application. For example if you have a strike coming perpendicular to you head and you use a blocking technique with your hands above your head, by lowering the stance you discharge the pressure of the blow through your legs to the feet then to ground, standing up the blow would go streight to you back.
In a throwing movement lowering the stance helps you to keep you rooted thus to have a better balance so you won't end up lying down with your opponent.
Even in a simple walking bending your knees creates a difference. In normal walking we tend to throw the body weight in the stepping leg before we actually are ready to step. In fact if you trip with the stepping leg you fall, because your weight is already entirely on the front leg. Lowering your walk will make so that part of your weight stays still on the back leg, thus if you trip with the front leg it is easier to recover the balance and not fall (then if you do a Tai Chi walk you can never trip and fall hee hee).
In attacking movements a lower stance will help you using the thrust of your legs/hips so that your hit is more powerful.

I don't have knowledge in MAs other than the one I train in, but as a general rule a lower stance gives more balance and helps to free the back from excessive weight.

 

[still learning]

Hello, Traditions....depends on how you look at them...christmas is a tradition,where everyone give someone else presents.

Traditions can be good or bad. Take what works for you, make ajustments if possible. AT times we must follow what our Teacher tells us.


Traditions can be like a person "HARD HEAD" ..NO can change! Then traditons can be a hindance or nuisance

It is my tradition eat with a fork, take a bath everyday,watch tv,go on line to martial talk com...OK stay up every New year (must where new cloths, with some money in it)..traditions say you will have a more success year.

Japanese always have pine trees leaves or bamboo stalks in front of the door ways or house, every New Years'. Old Japanese custom and TRADITON!

Want to know why? In old Japan all the homes were made of wood, most families had a water barrels near a pine tree or bamboo trees. In case of fire everyone knew where to go for water. Today it means a safe and prosperous year ahead. ...Aloha

PS: What are some of your flavoriate traditions?

 

[IWishToLearn]

Tradition without meaning is ludicrous. But unfortunately, alltogether common.

 

[charyuop]

Hee hee I forgot earlier to mention the tradition.
In my class (just like all CMA classes I assume) at the end of each form we bow and say shishi (spelling) which I was told it means Thank you. Doing that we place the fist of the right and on the palm of the left hand which kinda wrap the fist up.
You see it in all MA movies, but I don't know the meaning of it.

 

[Robert Lee]

The word speaks for its self. Passing down the training as it was taught to you. NOW we grow into a larger problem today. Some of the training is being handed down without a true understanding of the movements Leaving the next generation with less understanding. As it has been spoken about stance. I have visited schools and some have no knowledge of how to explain the stance how one should find the right postion for that person on a self check of proper positioning. And the instructors wonder why the student is have a problem learning the stance. When in the past. You were showed the stance how to corect the stance with the proper distancing of the feet width and And body postion. This is being lost through instruction They why is the method the telling is the understanding of the why or what.

 

[exile]

Hee hee I forgot earlier to mention the tradition.
In my class (just like all CMA classes I assume) at the end of each form we bow and say shishi (spelling) which I was told it means Thank you. Doing that we place the fist of the right and on the palm of the left hand which kinda wrap the fist up.
You see it in all MA movies, but I don't know the meaning of it.

We do the same in our TKD classes. I have the sense that the gesture indicates something like wrapping up the fist, like sheathing a sword---a gesture of peace or rest after action---but I don't know if this is even close.

 

[IWishToLearn]

In Kenpo the left chop covering the right fist (simplistically speaking) means the scholar (left open hand) covering the warrior (right fist) -- or peacefully greeting each other, while still retaining the ability and the right to defend ourselves.

 

[Grenadier]

Now, now, I do chop off the ends of a brisket, and place them in the pan elswhere. This way, I have a couple pieces of "testing meat" that can give an indication if the seasonings were correct! This way, I get a sneak peak of the tasty brisket, long before everyone else does.

In all seriousness, though, Kacey brings up a good point. There are many parts of traditional martial arts that have stood the test of time, simply because... they work. At the same time, though, there may very well be some things in the traditional martial arts that were not very well-explained from the start, that may need clarifying.

There was another similar story about a particular teacher, who was always making his high punches several inches above his own head. His students would copy this, without question, and after a while, one student finally asked him why the punches were aimed that high, while the other students looked on in horror.

The teacher said "I'm 5 foot, 2 inches. That's why I punch that high. What's your excuse?"

 

[Shotgun Buddha]

I usually just hear explanations for traditions that in some cases I know are just plain wrong. Especially almost anything referring back to the Samurai. Or Ninjas. Very definitely Ninjas.

 

[bushidomartialarts]

celebrating the birth of christ in december, even though historians are quite certain he was born later in the year.

see also easter and springtime.

 

[Shotgun Buddha]

celebrating the birth of christ in december, even though historians are quite certain he was born later in the year.

see also easter and springtime.

No no, those have the perfectly legitimate and reasonable explanation that we stole those days from some goddless heathens :uhyeah:

 

[Cirdan]

celebrating the birth of christ in december, even though historians are quite certain he was born later in the year.

The very popular cult of Mithras in Rome celebrated the birth of their god on dec 25. This custom wich was adopted by christianity after emperor Constantine turned to christianity making it the state religion.

Virgin Mary in christianity is also taken from another religion, she is none other than the Egyptian mother godess Isis who was worshipped in Rome.

 

[matt.m]

From serving in the Marine Corps, which is rich in tradition, you could say I like to be a traditional guy.

All kidding aside, I like to have everything explained to me. So I keep the traditions I think are worth while and drop the silly ones.

 

[SFC JeffJ]

No no, those have the perfectly legitimate and reasonable explanation that we stole those days from some goddless heathens :uhyeah:

Hey, those heathens had gods! A whole bunch of 'em in fact!