Andrew very well put my good man, too many people quit training and start teaching. I.E. the BB graduation is just ridiculous inmy eye anyway.
The best line is when you tie your belt it is getting shorter
The Black Belt is the finish line?
- Thread starter Lisa
- Start date
Andrew very well put my good man, too many people quit training and start teaching. I.E. the BB graduation is just ridiculous inmy eye anyway.
The best line is when you tie your belt it is getting shorter
Kwan Jang
Purple Belt
I see this in a different light from most I suppose. While I do believe that black belt only means that you are ready to begin training, I feel kids don't quit anything. Parents teach them to quit by letting them quit. This is IMO one of the biggest problems in today's society and I shudder to think what the world will be like when running this world comes into this generation's hands.
Far too often parents are trying to win a popularity contest with their kids and "don't want to make them do anything they don't want to." Left on their own, how many kids would go to school? What pattern are kids learning? If the going gets tough; quit. Then the parents wonder why the kids drop out of college or become divorced later on.
Children are not old enough (though this girl being in college may be an exception to my rant) to make their own decisions, that is why they NEED their parents to make decisions for them and to hold them accountable to stand by and follow through on decisions they have already made.
Far too often parents are trying to win a popularity contest with their kids and "don't want to make them do anything they don't want to." Left on their own, how many kids would go to school? What pattern are kids learning? If the going gets tough; quit. Then the parents wonder why the kids drop out of college or become divorced later on.
Children are not old enough (though this girl being in college may be an exception to my rant) to make their own decisions, that is why they NEED their parents to make decisions for them and to hold them accountable to stand by and follow through on decisions they have already made.
I think this is very typical of society today wanting to achieve quickly what takes time to understand. I see it alot with my students and they will move from one thing to the next after they have achieved their goal or societies goal. Half of each of the last 2 Black Belt classes I have seen have already moved on to other things I think that is just a sign of immaturity. I to had the "Black Belt" as my goal but once I achieved it I realized that the door was not shut on that part of my life but just opened. I think part of that was due to being older and understanding the process better.
Haze
Blue Belt
Anything that can be a life long learning experience has no end.
Education, when do you stop learning? If this girl is now in college when will she finish? BA, MA, PHD? Or will she continue to learn through out her life?
If she only gets her BA and never gets a MA then has she wasted her time?
NO.
If she never trains again and has only achieved Green belt has she wasted her time? NO.
Not everyone will achieve BB. BB is not the goal.
The goal is to train because you desire to train.
Education, when do you stop learning? If this girl is now in college when will she finish? BA, MA, PHD? Or will she continue to learn through out her life?
If she only gets her BA and never gets a MA then has she wasted her time?
NO.
If she never trains again and has only achieved Green belt has she wasted her time? NO.
Not everyone will achieve BB. BB is not the goal.
The goal is to train because you desire to train.
ajs1976
Purple Belt
Stop using the education analogy that compares a black belt to graduating highschool and focusing on goals. Martial arts training, like education, should be a life long endevour, but most people see them as a goal. Obtain a highschool diploma, obtain a black belt, etc. Once the goal is obtained, it is time to move on.
When I started a few years ago, my goal was get a black belt. That is still a goal, but I look at it as more indicator. If my martial arts journey is a mall directory, my black belt will be the big red dot that says "you are here"
OP
- Thread Starter
- #28
Kwan jang,
If a child is too young to make their own decisions then how are they old enough to be held accountable to stand by and follow through on decisions made for they by their parents? While I agree that sometimes parents allow their children to quit too soon, I believe there is a fine line between "allowing" them to quit and continuing on with something that they have no desire to finish. It can be disruptive to the other children in the dojo/dojang and frustrating for both the child and the teacher. In the end the child (just as in Kacey's class) ends up learning nothing. The analogy of using school and whether we would let them quit that is comparing apples and oranges. In this day and age school is necessary for success in life, extracirricular activity in something they find no joy in anymore, is not.
I think that if we are going to have successful people continue in martial arts there has to be a desire. Children's desires and even adults desires in what they want to strive for change all the time. You need to be flexible with your children, understand that what fancies them one day may not another and foster good healthy experiences.
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
When I was in junior High School I was in Jujitsu and I told my parents I wanted to quit just because (actually I was tired of it). They talked me into take a year off to think about it and then decide. After the year was up I wanted to return to martial arts in the worst way.
I feel that if they forced me to continue at that time I would have eventually quit when I got older if for no reason than to prove I could (teenagers can be so rebellious you know) But I am still in MA and have been for a very long time.
I feel that if they forced me to continue at that time I would have eventually quit when I got older if for no reason than to prove I could (teenagers can be so rebellious you know) But I am still in MA and have been for a very long time.
I "quit" when I was about 13-14 as well. If I hadn't I probably wouldn't be training now.
After about a year I was playing with swords, a little while later back to throwing punches and kicks as well
After about a year I was playing with swords, a little while later back to throwing punches and kicks as well
The thing is, people need a high school diploma or a college degree and for some jobs a graduate degree as a credential, and the actual knowledge that comes with it is totally irrelavent - the employer is just using it as a proxy for "smart enough and organized enough to graduate high school/college/grad school = smart enough and organized enough to do this job."
I don't think that there are very many people who look for the same credential in martial arts. The only time your rank matters is for hierarchy within your own system - no one in the wider world is going to close doors because you aren't a black belt.
My thoughts on this is somewhere between Kacey & Kwan Jang. I was a kid who struggled with TKD when I started at 14. I started w/ my best friend, who took to it easily. Everyone thought I'd give up quickly & he'd do it forever. 6 months later, he had quit & I've been training for 24 years.
I think it's very important for kids to finish what they start. I could go on & on about the physical difficulties I've overcome in my training. I loved it, I just wasn't able to make it easily. While BB doesn't mean one has "finished" anything, I think MA teaches kids how to set goals well. I think that does seem to be the issue for this college student: It's simply a matter of time.
If a child is not interested in class anymore (& not putting in effort & even being disruptive in class) it's not about goal setting or perserverance any longer. In Kacey's case, it wasn't until the child failed the test that the parents' eyes were opened. I want all of my students to get he most out of the the benefits of class. But if they don't want to be there, I'm going to talk to their parents about the fact that maybe something else is more appropriate for them.
I think all instructors need to have a class for parents entitled "What a BB is & isn't." (If y'all know of such a curiculum, let me know) I think you're friend's instructor should have a talk w/ the college student's mother about priorities & there being a season for everything in life. This gal has a great opportunity for education. While its sad that she won't have time for training, unless she's a TKD major in college it's completely understandable.
:soapbox: I'll get off my soapbox, now.
I think it's very important for kids to finish what they start. I could go on & on about the physical difficulties I've overcome in my training. I loved it, I just wasn't able to make it easily. While BB doesn't mean one has "finished" anything, I think MA teaches kids how to set goals well. I think that does seem to be the issue for this college student: It's simply a matter of time.
If a child is not interested in class anymore (& not putting in effort & even being disruptive in class) it's not about goal setting or perserverance any longer. In Kacey's case, it wasn't until the child failed the test that the parents' eyes were opened. I want all of my students to get he most out of the the benefits of class. But if they don't want to be there, I'm going to talk to their parents about the fact that maybe something else is more appropriate for them.
I think all instructors need to have a class for parents entitled "What a BB is & isn't." (If y'all know of such a curiculum, let me know) I think you're friend's instructor should have a talk w/ the college student's mother about priorities & there being a season for everything in life. This gal has a great opportunity for education. While its sad that she won't have time for training, unless she's a TKD major in college it's completely understandable.
:soapbox: I'll get off my soapbox, now.
While I completely agree that children must be taught to stick with what they started, not quit when it gets tough, and learn to attain goals...I agree that there is a very fine line. There are some children that will simply shut down when forced to do something that they don't want to...For that matter, I have employees who are grown men and do the exact same thing. It is very difficult to motivate someone who no longer wants to be there or be doing what they are doing, no matter what the age. The difficulty as a parent is figuring out how to motivate the child to want to continue rather than forcing them to continue to teach them a lesson.
pstarr
Master Black Belt
Sounds like the Mom ought to start classes alongside her daughter. I think she'd learn some valuable lessons-
Brother John
Senior Master
one of the biggest determinants of "Will a person earn a Black Belt" is "how badly do they want it?"....and if she doesn't, then she's gone as far as she can for now.
I know You know this, the problem is getting mom to see it and understand.
This is one of the problems caused by putting the Shodan on a High level.
The only thing I can think of is talking to the mother about it and being very upfront. Let her know that Black Belt is not a goal, self improvement and the aquisition of skills/knowledge is a fine goal...but the belt is nothing more than a guage of how much of the system the person in question should be responsible for. The MA is a personal journey, and if the young lady wants to step off the bus at an earlier stop....that's her call. Mom needs to see that. She needs to know that the BB is not like a highschool diploma...and that not achieving it does not equate with not 'finishing'.
I'd say just lay it out for her very plainly.
Your Brother
John
I know You know this, the problem is getting mom to see it and understand.
This is one of the problems caused by putting the Shodan on a High level.
The only thing I can think of is talking to the mother about it and being very upfront. Let her know that Black Belt is not a goal, self improvement and the aquisition of skills/knowledge is a fine goal...but the belt is nothing more than a guage of how much of the system the person in question should be responsible for. The MA is a personal journey, and if the young lady wants to step off the bus at an earlier stop....that's her call. Mom needs to see that. She needs to know that the BB is not like a highschool diploma...and that not achieving it does not equate with not 'finishing'.
I'd say just lay it out for her very plainly.
Your Brother
John
In my mind BB is just saying you have accomplished the basics enough to teach others if you desire. To me BB is the beginning. However, I am not going to belt chase. When I get there I will.
I think it is crazy to ''force'' people to go to class. From my experience it is just bad for the class.
I think it is crazy to ''force'' people to go to class. From my experience it is just bad for the class.
PeaceWarrior
Green Belt
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Tell mom that a black belt is really just a white belt stained by blood and sweat.
Shodan in Japanese I believe literally means "first level." Even the great Morihei Ueshiba, one of the greatest martial artists to ever live, said on his death bed "I am just a baby in Aikido..."
If she has this 'tunnel vision' somebody spoke of earlier, I forgot who, then chances are she will never understand. You have to experience it and have the drive to keep learning no matter how hard it gets. Quitting when you get a black belt is exactly the same as quitting when you have a yellow belt.
In other words, if your mindset (or the mindset youre given) is just to get a blackbelt and 'get it over with' you might as well just quit where you are, because while you may eventually get a black belt, you have not earned it.
Shodan in Japanese I believe literally means "first level." Even the great Morihei Ueshiba, one of the greatest martial artists to ever live, said on his death bed "I am just a baby in Aikido..."
If she has this 'tunnel vision' somebody spoke of earlier, I forgot who, then chances are she will never understand. You have to experience it and have the drive to keep learning no matter how hard it gets. Quitting when you get a black belt is exactly the same as quitting when you have a yellow belt.
In other words, if your mindset (or the mindset youre given) is just to get a blackbelt and 'get it over with' you might as well just quit where you are, because while you may eventually get a black belt, you have not earned it.
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It doesn't help that it's basically gotten to the point, and we've done it to ourselves., where it's become business suicide to give the CORRECT answer to the question of "How long's it take the average person to get a black belt/equivalent rank?" the correct answer being, "*Average* people don't GET black belts/equivalent rank".
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