Tournaments: Unfair advantage

[karatemom3]

In the martial art I am training in now students can not get a black belt until they are 16 years old. In other martial art styles in the area you can become a black belt in 3-4 years. So in an open tournament you may have an "advanced colored belt" who has been training for 9 years competing against a student training 2 years or less. I have two questions. Would you encourage the student with more experience to compete in the black belt division if allowed? As a judge would you take in to consideration how long the student has been training?

 

[Gnarlie]

I would say both factors, length of training and belt, are largely irrelevant to how good the student will be in the ring. Experience in the ring is what matters. That and self control.

Gnarlie

 

[drop bear]

What style. Is you kid going to get smashed if he competes out of his depth?

 

[Buka]

As a judge you do not take into consideration anything other than running a safe ring, abiding by all rules and scoring properly. The only caveat I can think of to this is - if the tournament promoter warns the judges about something during the rules meetings before the tournament starts. It may be something that happened between two competitors previously, or their respective dojos, or whatever. It's just to let all the officials be aware.

The other question is a little trickier. It's a slippery slope to let a karate student compete in a division of a higher rank. However, in my opinion - most tournaments I've been to do not allow controlled facial contact in under black belt divisions. If a school trains exclusively with controlled contact at all belt levels - some leeway may be given to your student if it's THE RIGHT student. By "right student" I'm not talking about how well he/she fights, but rather how well they conduct themselves in the Martial Arts. If that student does fight Black Belt they can never, ever fight at a lower rank in that or any other tournament. And if they so much as hint to anyone at the tournament that they are of a lower rank than Black - they should be hung, by you personally, right there on the spot.

I like the idea of the 16 year old limit in your school. All schools are different. (as they should be) I did not have an age limit, but to be considered for Black a student (brown belt) had to be able to defend themselves against a full grown, full size man. Female students as well. That was based on my knowledge of the student over the many years he/she had put in to that point. Never had one under the age of sixteen. I despise kiddie black belts.

 

[PhotonGuy]

In the martial art I am training in now students can not get a black belt until they are 16 years old. In other martial art styles in the area you can become a black belt in 3-4 years. So in an open tournament you may have an "advanced colored belt" who has been training for 9 years competing against a student training 2 years or less. I have two questions. Would you encourage the student with more experience to compete in the black belt division if allowed? As a judge would you take in to consideration how long the student has been training?

First of all, if I were to run a dojo I would not base my requirements for belts, including the black belt, on age but rather on ability, physically and mentally. That being said, if a student is ready to compete in the black belt division than they should if they're allowed to, regardless of whether or not they're reached black belt. If I were a judge I would not take much consideration into the time they've been training but rather on skill and ability.

 

[Blindside]

I have seen judges show favoritism to black belts over brown belts when judging, I am not saying it is fair, but I have seen it. Usually it isn't an issue in sparring, but I have seen it in forms/kata divisions.

I did it several times as an underbelt and it was always a blast. I never expected to win and if I did, then that was obviously a huge bonus. As a brown belt it was a good opportunity to let the black belts know who I was, on the other hand for some of those guys I was easy meat.

 

[karatemom3]

I was thinking more about forms/kata divisions. There are some naturally talented students that can excel with 1 or 2 years of training but the average student develops skill with time and practice.

 

[drop bear]

Also depends how often the kid trains. So it is kind of hard to judge regardless.

 

[Grenadier]

I tend to avoid "open" tournaments, and instead, encourage our students to compete in tournaments that use the USA Karate (formerly USA-NKF) or WKF rules. This way, at least you know what you can reasonably expect with a particular division.

For example, the way USA Karate places people:

0-1 years experience - Beginner
1-2 years experience - Novice
2-3 years experience - Intermediate
3+ years experience - Advanced

Someone who is a brown belt MUST compete in at least the intermediate division, and someone who is a black belt must compete as advanced. Also, any kata considered as a black belt level or higher (Seinchin, Kanku Dai, Jion, Bassai Dai, etc) cannot be performed in the novice or beginner divisions.

This way, you don't have too many people deliberately withholding rank, in order to get an easier division. Before they changed the rules in 2008, there were individuals with almost 2 years of experience doing black belt level kata, such as Seinchin, Jion, etc., in the novice division. People who want to compete in the novice or below divisions, must do a Heian / Pinan level kata.

Also, the referees with USA Karate are standardized in what they're supposed to know, which at least gives a more level playing field. I'm not saying it's perfect (there are certainly some bad ones), but at least it gives less wiggle room for those who would try to abuse the system.

To Karatemom3, I would try to find a USA Karate / USA NKF sanctioned event in your area.

 

[skribs]

I recently went to a TKD tournament where, in the kids divisions, there were red belts competing in the black belt bracket. I saw at least one from our school and one from another.

Personally, I think if you have the skills, knowledge, experience, and discipline to be worthy of a black belt, you should have a black belt. We're supposed to use Poom for the kids in our school, but they get black belts. I have yet to see a kid black belt that didn't deserve it (at my school).

 

[tshadowchaser]

In a few tournament I have had a young teen compete in JR black belt composition before he was one. I had him take off his belt during the competition.
I agree once they compete at a BB lvl they can never go back to under belt divisions.
I like having the divisions divided into age groups and years of practice this gives a more even playing field
In the olden days fighting was divided into weight divisions also but the it was darn near full contact

 

[Grenadier]

I recently went to a TKD tournament where, in the kids divisions, there were red belts competing in the black belt bracket. I saw at least one from our school and one from another.

This is not entirely unusual, assuming that red belt is right before black belt. Sometimes, when there aren't enough competitors to form a decent sized division, they'll combine black belts and almost-black belts together, since the difference in skill level between the two isn't quite as vast as it would be between, say, a 7th gup compared to a 1st gup.

 

[Mark Lynn]

In the martial art I am training in now students can not get a black belt until they are 16 years old. In other martial art styles in the area you can become a black belt in 3-4 years. So in an open tournament you may have an "advanced colored belt" who has been training for 9 years competing against a student training 2 years or less. I have two questions. Would you encourage the student with more experience to compete in the black belt division if allowed? As a judge would you take in to consideration how long the student has been training?

If a student would be competitive in the black belt forms division then I don't see a problem with it, although I'm not sure it would be allowed or wise, but.......

For instance I have a student who has been in the martial arts since she was 5 and she is testing for black next month at 14. Now she has been under 3-4 instructors plus her parents in several different arts (due to moving and such) So while she has 9 years of training when she does her forms you can see the difference between her and my other students; not just skill wise but also the way she moves her body, stances and such. I can see the difference, and I imagine other kata judges would see the same thing. To make her go against other BBs who are doing higher level forms more consistently at even just 5-6 years of training in one style would be unfair.

I was thinking more about forms/kata divisions. There are some naturally talented students that can excel with 1 or 2 years of training but the average student develops skill with time and practice.

I have a student who is exceptional kata performer at about 2-3 years of training. He is the best kata performer at my school and he is a purple belt 4th gup/kyu. But he is the exception to the rule. He's (10?) still emotionally not ready to compete in BB forms division in handling the pressure, even though he has great skill, even if I would allow it. Last year I think I taught him 9 forms (TKD, Modern Arnis, Kobudo katas).

Anyway with forms and especially in open tournament you will see everything under the sun (at least down here in TX), Orange belts doing brown belt forms, made up katas, people using plastic weapons (toys), as a judge we have no idea how long a student has been training because each martial art has different katas, different stances, different blocks or hand position for the blocks etc. etc. unless you compete in style specific tournaments where everyone is judged the same, same kata, same requirements for basic etc. etc. I don't see where making a person compete in this division or that based on years in the martial arts really has a bearing on being judged fairly and competitively.