Toshindo questions: episode 2

[Tgace]

As somebody with only book knowledge (and 80's ninja craze knowledge) of Ninjutsu, when and why did this split occur? From what I see here, it appears this Toshindo issue is why. But why did SKH do it in the first place if it meant a split from the Bujinkan?

 

[Shogun]

According to Hayes, he "asked" Hatsumi, and Hatsumi told him to do it.

 

[gmunoz]

Yes, Hayes sensei was told by Hatsumi that things in America needed to be changed to address our culture here. Mr. Hayes introduced To-Shin Do as an tribute to his teacher. This is per Mr. Hayes directly.

 

[Cryozombie]

It was stated to me that one of the main reasons for this is that what Hayes is currently teaching is "Radicaly" different than what is being taught in the Bujinkan...

Do you think its possible (and this is pure conjecture on my part) that what he did with Toshindo was a "Radicaly" different change than what Hatsumi meant when he said change it for Americans?

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Yes, Hayes sensei was told by Hatsumi that things in America needed to be changed to address our culture here. Mr. Hayes introduced To-Shin Do as an tribute to his teacher. This is per Mr. Hayes directly.

What is it that makes America so special that the Bujinkan doesn't fit in there, according to Hayes? Surely, it can't be the general inability of Americans to do ukemi, or anything like that?

 

[gmunoz]

Hatsumi is the one that told Mr. Hayes that he needed to adjust things to American culture. Again, he did it based on Hatsumi's recommendation.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Kyojitsu is a fabulous thing.

 

[r.severe]

Technopunk stated, "For what it's worth...
I asked Shihan Ed Martin today what the Bujinkan's policy on training with Mr. Hayes... He said Soke Hatsumi stated that if you Train with Mr. Hayes you are not welcome with the Bujinkan. Take that for what it's worth."

Technopunk, I have had a great deal of personal problems with what Ed Martin has said over the past 6 months.
His record shows he doesn't tell the truth or gets heresay information and passes it off as truth.
His word has been at question by many people here in the Texas area and he has lost his credibility with us in regards to what he says.Take that for what it's worth too.

I can't tell you how much I respect Hayes shihan and his programs.
I would stand next to him any day.

ralph severe, kamiyama

 

[Cryozombie]

His record shows he doesn't tell the truth or gets heresay information and passes it off as truth.

Ralph,

Just so I understand your comments,

You are saying that Shihan Martin is a Liar, correct?

 

[r erman]

You are saying that Shihan Martin is a Liar, correct?

I think Ralph's phrasing was pretty blunt. It may have been better left to pm, but it's now up for critique. I have had no dealings with Ed Martin, with the exception of one boo-fest several years ago, and thus have no opinion of the man, but I think most of us know of certain well-known individuals who sometimes over or mis-state things. And, fwiw, I've heard several things 'directly from hombu' in the past that wound up being incorrect. Someone mentioned kyojitsu--I agree, but not the way it was implied.

Honestly when you posted your reply I almost, once again, pasted the link to kutaki where it was stated, unequivocally, that the 'unwelcome' rule was for Nagato's dojo only and that Hatsumi had not made an announcement or 'rule'--this from people living in Japan close to the source.

I cannot see why people will not accept the word of someone who spoke directly to Nagato Shihan about the statement that he made and publically repeated what Nagato Shihan(once again, the person who made the announcement in the first place) told him...

If you do not like Steve Hayes or what he does, or fear some kind of reprisal for training with him, DON'T train with him or his people. Pretty simple.

 

[r.severe]

Ralph,
Just so I understand your comments,
You are saying that Shihan Martin is a Liar, correct?
Technopunk


Yes, he is if it is to do with what I have understood through his e-mails and statements to me directly.
I have well over 20 e-mails over the past 6 months in regards to him and his misleading statements towards others who train with me, Bujinkan members and other martial artist.
You may e-mail directly if you have any questions regarding what I have said.

ralph severe, kamiyama

 

[Cryozombie]

Yes, he is if it is to do with what I have understood through his e-mails

ralph severe, kamiyama

I see... your belief he is a liar comes from your level of understanding of his emails.

Thank you for your clarification.

 

[r.severe]

Belief and faith come from personal judgment.
Reason comes from knowledge.
I have the knowledge of his e-mails to give me reason to feel the way I do about his character.
I'm not saying this from heresay or just saying it because of some personal feelings.
Thanks..
ralph severe, kamiyama

 

[Cryozombie]

Honestly when you posted your reply I almost, once again, pasted the link to kutaki where it was stated, unequivocally, that the 'unwelcome' rule was for Nagato's dojo only and that Hatsumi had not made an announcement or 'rule'--this from people living in Japan close to the source.

I'm sorry for sounding stupid but what is Kutaki? Im not familiar with the term, so I don't know that their word is "unequivocally" law. I have heard from a few people "Close to the source" as well that it is forbiden.

I guess the only way we will know for sure is if we can con Shogun into going and doing the Training with Mr. Hayes and then see if they let him train in the Booj.

Whadda ya say Shogun?

 

[Blind]

I don`t mean to be picky, but Knowledge comes from Reason(keeping it simple). Not the other way around. Simply put we use reason to organise the things we percieve into what becomes our knowledge...if you imagine it the other way around it would be necessary to know the answer to question X before you could use your reasoning to find it.

 

[r.severe]

Knowledge comes from Reason. Not the other way around. Simply put we use reason to organise the things we percieve into what becomes our knowledge...if you imagine it the other way around it would be necessary to know the answer to question X before you could use your reasoning to find it.


Blind... I disagree.
You research to gain knowledge.
Knowlwedge in turn gives the human being reson to know what the facts are from the research.
It would be very strange to say you have reason without the facts of knowledge first.

ralph severe, kamiyama

 

[r erman]

I'm sorry for sounding stupid but what is Kutaki? Im not familiar with the term, so I don't know that their word is "unequivocally" law. I have heard from a few people "Close to the source" as well that it is forbiden.

Kutaki no Mura is about as close to an official bujinkan discussion forum you will find. The link I spoke of is waaay back 2 pages ago. I even quoted Duncan Mitchell's post where he repeated what he was told by Nagato Shihan. Duncan is not the only source for this either.

I've no problem discussing anything further in pm or e-mail.

 

[gmunoz]

I have very recently been on a Bujinkan forum as well and most say that it was Nagato's dojo that the rule applies. No has specifically said there that they've a public declaration has been made from Hatsumi personally. It's always two people travelling said that he said that he said that he said. Very confusing.

Again, as someone already mentioned. If you're fearful of taking the risk then don't take it.

 

[jibran]

Kutaki No Mura is a Bujinkan forum; it is frequented by many students who are living in nihon and senior shihan. You can usually get good, accurate advice there.

 

[Blind]

Knowledge comes from Reason. Not the other way around. Simply put we use reason to organise the things we percieve into what becomes our knowledge...if you imagine it the other way around it would be necessary to know the answer to question X before you could use your reasoning to find it.


Blind... I disagree.
You research to gain knowledge.
Knowlwedge in turn gives the human being reson to know what the facts are from the research.
It would be very strange to say you have reason without the facts of knowledge first.

ralph severe, kamiyama

What you are talking about is reasonS, not reason. Reason is something we are born with an ability to do(most of us). Using reason we research, "why did X happen?" we think, ponder and experiment on it using reason to find an answer, when we do that becomes part of what we call our knowledge. Once we have gained that knowledge we may use it in future to continue to reason based off what we think we know.

You may have reasonS to make a judgement based off your knowledge, but your ability to reason does not come from your knowledge. If you had said my reasons are based off my knowledge of what I feel I know then fine.