Toshindo questions: episode 2

[r erman]

This from Deaf:

Well that is totally false. Think what you will however do be prepared to the fact that if you are training with SKH, you WILL be turned down by the Bujinkan. This information has been passed down by the Bujinkan Admins during their seminars etc.

This from Duncan Mitchell, from Japan, from Nagato's dojo:

I talked to Nagato-sensei just maybe a session or two after any anouncement was made. I found out about it because he had just told someone that if he trained with Ishizuka-sensei that he was not to train at Nagato's dojo. I then quizzed Nagato-sensei with a few questions and the basic message I got was

- Soke had said we shouldn't train with Ishizuka or Muramatsu (Hayes wasn't mentioned - but that doesn't supprise me as I am Australian)

- That it wasn't a "Bujinkan" rule and that Hatsumi-sensei hadn't made an announcement but may make one very soon - but might not.

- That the rule was for Nagato's classes.

- Finally that soke was a "nice guy" so he might not make it an issue so it was up to Nagato-sensei himself.

Maybe this is a bit different than what was heard the first time this was announced by Nagato-sensei but I am certain that this is what was said. Maybe it had been softened over a week or two?


----------------
Duncan Mitchell

(Bold and Italics are my emphasis, not in original)

How was what I posted false in light of this? Now, mind you, this is not the only thing I'm going off of, but this is the most public statement I've read.

And we can continue this in pm if you like, but don't leave such a contentious statement hanging and then bow out of discussion--especially when I linked backing public material close to the source of the discussion in my 'false' post...

Cheers,

 

[Cryozombie]

And we can continue this in pm if you like,

Cheers,

That may be the best course of action at this point.

 

[Shogun]

Who said you where wrong? I am not going to test with Hayes. I do, however, recommend his videos, even for Bujinkan people. You can purchase very specific videos from Hayes. I just received Toshindo Takagi Shoden kata 1+2.

peace,
Kyle

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Personally, I find the choice between Hayes videos and Hatsumi/Arnaud/Pedro videos pretty easy to make.

 

[Cryozombie]

Personally, I find the choice between Hayes videos and Hatsumi/Arnaud/Pedro videos pretty easy to make.

Im not sure who Arnaud/Pedro are...

But I love watching Hatsumi's videos, and I get a lot of good ideas from them... I find, however, at my level, that they are "lacking" in the qualities I most need... not to say that Hatsumi or his videos are lacking, mind you, but at my level, what I need is "Instruction". Im sure tha Dan ranks can watch a Hatsumi video and go "Ah, ahha" and work from what they see... but for a lowly Kyu rank like me...

For example. I feel I need more work on my Kihon Happo. I asked my instructor if he has any good Kihon Happo videos... and he gave me "Kobudo no Kihon"

Great DVD... I didnt improve my Kihon Happo technique much with it. I think that a step by step like Von Donk or even Hayes would be better for learning techniques, and that Hatsumi videos are great for concepts, ideas, and feelings.

But... again, I'm just a lowly Kyu rank... my opinion may change as my rank does... :idunno:

 

[Shogun]

Hayes videos are very good for lower ranks. Technopunk, I would recommend to you the Togakure ryu Ten ryaku no Maki Kihon video from SKH. it is over 1 hr long, (I think its 90 min) and includes the Kihon Happo, San Shin no kata, Juroppo ken kata, Muto dori, and other stuff. It is in classical form, so the same stuff the Booj teaches. Its $49.95, but worth it. I heard Hoban Shihan has a good Kihon Happo. The reason I keep buying the SKH videos is the quality. they are the best quality I have seen. Panther quality.

Cheers,
KE

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

If "classic" is the same as 80's style taijutsu, then you can get much better elsewhere. Things change within the Bujinkan. With a vengeance.

 

[r erman]

Personally, I find the choice between Hayes videos and Hatsumi/Arnaud/Pedro videos pretty easy to make.

Yeah, me too.

If "classic" is the same as 80's style taijutsu, then you can get much better elsewhere. Things change within the Bujinkan. With a vengeance.

What recent material of SKH have you seen? Just curious...

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

I believe it was something he recorded in the mid-90's. Can't remember exactly what it was right now though. What I can say that he's good for what it's worth. Then again, there are others who are not nearly as famous as Hayes is but nonetheless incredibly skilled and travel to Japan regularly.

 

[Shogun]

Well, I might not be the best judge (being non-ranked), but I find his stuff pretty good.

IMO, though, it doesnt matter how good someone is, if they can't teach, how can they be a good teacher. if you think about it, the rest is irrelevent. I have watched some clips of some other Bujinkan Shihan videos, (and being an untouchable as far as Booj ranks go), find Hoban or Hayes easier to understand.
ps I'm pretty sure Hayes' training is as recent as 1996,(after the 80's), when he founded Toshindo. I could be mistaken, .......but I'm pretty sure. Hayes could be lying, but he claims to have recent training on his videos. He also says his Certs. come from Japan. who knows.......no seriously, does anyone know?

 

[r erman]

Well, I might not be the best judge (being non-ranked), but I find his stuff pretty good.

I find it better than 'pretty good' most of the time

ps I'm pretty sure Hayes' training is as recent as 1996,(after the 80's), when he founded Toshindo. I could be mistaken, .......but I'm pretty sure. Hayes could be lying, but he claims to have recent training on his videos. He also says his Certs. come from Japan. who knows.......no seriously, does anyone know?

I've seen pictures of him training at hombu from '98. And very recent video footage of Hatsumi performing hanbo waza with SKH as uke--probably within the last year or so...you can tell because it's after he lost so much weight.

Last I head he's still getting booj diplomas for his SOI people--and that was a couple of months ago.

 

[jibran]

Buyu,
In a personal letter ( in reply to my inquiry on this very topic) on September 29th (of this year), Mr. Hayes said,
"'I still continue to get Bujhinkan Dojo diplomas for my students.

Hatsumi Sensei just sent me the latest package of diplomas for my students 3 weeks ago, along with a letter commenting about my daughters’ university work.'"

Maybe this is a change made after the announcement or something but it is fairly recent. It is possible that Shadows of Iga now issues Bujinkan diplomas and did not at the time of the announcement.

 

[gmunoz]

SOI have issued Bujinkan Dojo diplomas for some time. I have also confirmed this personally with Don Phillips in Dayton, OH. at Quest Hombu.

 

[Enson]

Buyu,
In a personal letter ( in reply to my inquiry on this very topic) on September 29th (of this year), Mr. Hayes said,
"'I still continue to get Bujhinkan Dojo diplomas for my students.

Hatsumi Sensei just sent me the latest package of diplomas for my students 3 weeks ago, along with a letter commenting about my daughters’ university work.'"

Maybe this is a change made after the announcement or something but it is fairly recent. It is possible that Shadows of Iga now issues Bujinkan diplomas and did not at the time of the announcement.

welcome to martial talk. look around and have fun. be sure to use the search option to find any previous topics discussed.
peace

 

[jibran]

A little off topic but congrats FATHER Enson.
If you want to know how the ninja raised their kids, read "The Ninja: and Their Secret Fighting Art" by Mr. Hayes ideas

 

[jibran]

I know that SOI has always issued BJK diplomas; it was, in fact, the first major arm of the Bujinkan Dojo. When I said

did not at the time of the announcement

I meant it doubtfully.

 

[gmunoz]

From what I have read on a Bujinkan forum, it seems like the controversy regarding An-Shu Hayes is with certain teachers in Bujinkan. No one has ever posted, at least from my attempts to find something, that Hatsumi has specifically said that. It may be perhaps just within certain teachers requiring their specific students not to train with them and if so, they would not be allowed to be in that school. If they are prominent teachers within Buj, then I could understand where that is coming from. Check with your teacher and if he/she says that is the case for their school, then that's that regarding the video training w/SKH. Good luck.

 

[Shogun]

Good point, but then if you think about it this way: your teacher may say its ok, (mine would) but that is all the further you can go (maybe). Hatsumi says one who does is "not welcome". when Hatsumi speaks, the Shihan listen, so therefore no seminars, and no rank higher than your teachers. I wouldnt disrespect the wishes of the person who brought it into the open. remember, Hayes might of introduced Ninjutsu to america, but Hatsumi introduced Ninjutsu to Americans.

 

[gmunoz]

True, true. To me, it's all good. Japan, American, obviously two different concepts, methodologies, etc. I love it all...!

 

[Cryozombie]

For what it's worth...

I asked Shihan Ed Martin today what the Bujinkan's policy on training with Mr. Hayes...

He said Soke Hatsumi stated that if you Train with Mr. Hayes you are not welcome with the Bujinkan.

Take that for what it's worth.