To those who don't care about belt rank

[Dirty Dog]

Some belts are only given out to people with skill. Those belts are quite often worth something to the people who receive them. A belt from a quality instructor is different to a belt that is bought on eBay.

But as has been pointed out ad nauseam, the belt itself has no value (OK, it's worth a few bucks for the material and workmanship...). It's the skills that matter. I'd rather have compliments from my seniors and/or see the progression of those I train than another belt (or stripe, or whatever).
What I gain from my training, and what I try to give students, is completely separate from any belt.

 

[drop bear]

The brown belt I received (the highest belt I've ever gotten) from my Kyokushin instructors I value highly. I earned it, they made me work hard for it. But doesn't it apply the other way. The skills that people get when there is no belt involved are quite valuable to those who obtain them? At least equal to those who do the same with a belt, sometimes moreso?

I agree with that as well.

 

[drop bear]

But as has been pointed out ad nauseam, the belt itself has no value (OK, it's worth a few bucks for the material and workmanship...). It's the skills that matter. I'd rather have compliments from my seniors and/or see the progression of those I train than another belt (or stripe, or whatever).
What I gain from my training, and what I try to give students, is completely separate from any belt.

A belt from a quality instructor is payed for in skill. And time and hard work and so on.

And is worth more than the cost of the material.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

If I get a certain belt under a certain sensei, that means I've met that sensei's definition of what it means to be skilled enough for that belt rank.

You still haven't answered my question: If tomorrow your school ditched belts altogether i.e. your instructor woke up and said, 'forget the belts. You're a student till your an instructor like in the ole days'...would you continue to train there?

 

[MJS]

If I get a certain belt under a certain sensei, that means I've met that sensei's definition of what it means to be skilled enough for that belt rank.

Of course, this is all depending on whether or not the person awarding the belt, is sincere or just more concerned with getting your money. As Dirty Dog said, you don't need a belt, to indicate skill level.

 

[MJS]

You still haven't answered my question: If tomorrow your school ditched belts altogether i.e. your instructor woke up and said, 'forget the belts. You're a student till your an instructor like in the ole days'...would you continue to train there?

I know you're not directing this at me, but I'd like to answer. I'll say this: if ANY of the people I train with, said that, yes, I would absolutely continue to train with them!

 

[tshadowchaser]

As I have said before if one night all the student where told not to wear their belts and could line up anywhere they wanted in class, a observer should be able to tell who has the knowledge and who dose not. The belt dose not hold the knowledge.

 

[drop bear]

I know you're not directing this at me, but I'd like to answer. I'll say this: if ANY of the people I train with, said that, yes, I would absolutely continue to train with them!

That would be tough on a guy that just took ten years to get a black belt.

 

[Hong Kong Pooey]

I don't really want to get involved in this argument but after wasting over an hour reading the whole thread I feel obliged to have an input, so here goes:

Actually it was closer to ten years that I was at high level brown belt. Yes I did learn stuff during that time and I developed skill but the important thing was to make it to first degree black belt so I could take my training to the next level. As somebody said in this thread that getting a black belt is like getting a high school diploma and somebody else said its like getting a bachelor's degree in college. I would have to agree, it means you learned the basics and now you're ready to learn the art, that's what I mean by taking it to the next level. I've got a bachelor's degree in psychology. That means I've learned the basics of psychology. If I were to go for a master's degree in psychology it would be more focused and I would start to really push forward in learning about psychology. The same thing with getting a black belt, now you're ready to really push forward. And if anything, once you make black belt, you expect more out of yourself.

In your OP and subsequent responses you seem to have missed something that someone with a degree in psychology should know: different people think differently.

E.G.

Originally Posted by PhotonGuy
And why wouldn't somebody who works hard to develop high skill pursue high rank?

If you were training in medicine rather than MA and had all the necessary skills and knowledge in order to practice and call yourself Dr, would that be enough or would you still need a piece of paper saying your a doctor to hang on the wall for your own personal satisfaction?

I've said it a million times and I'll say it a million more

Please don't

Good luck in your quest

P.S. Apologies for the crappy quoting technique

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I know you're not directing this at me, but I'd like to answer. I'll say this: if ANY of the people I train with, said that, yes, I would absolutely continue to train with them!

Me too

 

[Kong Soo Do]

As I have said before if one night all the student where told not to wear their belts and could line up anywhere they wanted in class, a observer should be able to tell who has the knowledge and who dose not. The belt dose not hold the knowledge.

Bingo! And if not, there is a real issue.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

That would be tough on a guy that just took ten years to get a black belt.

Did he take 10 years to get a belt or 10 years to develop a skill set, base of knowledge and experience. If the former I can see how he'd be upset, if the later then the color of a piece of cloth is pretty much a moot point.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

You still haven't answered my question: If tomorrow your school ditched belts altogether i.e. your instructor woke up and said, 'forget the belts. You're a student till your an instructor like in the ole days'...would you continue to train there?

I think the silence has answered my question.

 

[drop bear]

Did he take 10 years to get a belt or 10 years to develop a skill set, base of knowledge and experience. If the former I can see how he'd be upset, if the later then the color of a piece of cloth is pretty much a moot point.

In theory you need the skill set to get the belt.

What if the military just got rid of war medals? The soldiers are just as skilled and a medal is just a piece of tin.

 

[Dirty Dog]

In theory you need the skill set to get the belt.

What if the military just got rid of war medals? The soldiers are just as skilled and a medal is just a piece of tin.

Do you know of anybody who enlists specifically to pursue medals?
If so, I'd say they shouldn't be allowed near a weapon.

To quote the Wise and Great Philosopher Mr Miyagi... "This say you brave. (hand on heart) This say you lucky. (Pointing at medals)"



Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.

 

[RTKDCMB]

What if the military just got rid of war medals? The soldiers are just as skilled and a medal is just a piece of tin.

The way I understand it is that medals are awarded in recognition of bravery, not skills.

 

[Buka]

One of the things I used to do, three or four times a year, was when the students lined up for class, I'd have everybody take off their belts, throw them into a pile and put on somebody else's. Blacks wearing yellows, whites wearing blacks etc. The students got a kick out of it, especially the (under belts). And I'd wear a white belt teaching class. After five minutes, nobody really cared. I didn't mention anything about a "belt doesn't matter" but I'm sure the students got the point. And it was always fun.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

In theory you need the skill set to get the belt.

Unfortunately, that's only in theory. A belt can be 'earned' these days after a single weekend and a cleared check. And it carries all the legitimacy in some organizations as the one earned over years of training. That's why belts really don't matter. Anyone can wear a belt. Anyone can be 'legitimate' within a school or organization for the right price. Quite another to be able to step out on the mat with a level of skill. That's why skill/experience/wealth of knowledge will always trump the color of a belt.

What if the military just got rid of war medals? The soldiers are just as skilled and a medal is just a piece of tin.

Have you ever been in the military? I have? Have you ever earned a metal? I have. If so, then you'll realize that most of them just feel lucky/blessed enough just to have come home, often want the medal to go to their buddies that didn't come home and absolutely don't wear it so others can recognize them in it.

Piss poor comparison.

 

[PhotonGuy]

You still haven't answered my question: If tomorrow your school ditched belts altogether i.e. your instructor woke up and said, 'forget the belts. You're a student till your an instructor like in the ole days'...would you continue to train there?

How I would react to that would depend. Lets say that at such a school I've already achieved first degree black belt. In that case I would still train there and my goal would be to just get better, but without my progress being clearly defined in any way such as with belts. If I had not yet reached black belt than my goal would be to become an instructor since that is a clearly defined goal and then after I achieved that, my goal would be the same as it is after making black belt, to get better but for it to be abstract rather than clearly defined. As it is, black belt is often equivalent to being an assistant instructor. In my dojo once you do make black belt you are sometimes expected to teach as an assistant instructor.

 

[PhotonGuy]

You can have a belt without skill.

Not if I get it under a sensei who makes me earn it.