To Control Or Not To Control..That Is The Question.

[BLACK LION]

In reference to the "knife to the throat" from the front scenario... We went over it this Sunday and found that from the hands up in neutral position the scooping/pulling strike to the inner "knife hand" elbow joint while simultaneously striking the throat/neck or eyes was a viable intro...whereas the knife from behind utilized a pull/grab of the knife hand while rotating ans striking the groin or even the neck... we assumed that in these positions the threats non tool hand would be grabbing or clenching some portion of the upper body....

The impact device scenarios required getting in and stiking either before or after the swing. Focusing on the threats torso in relation to thier arms.

I have some pics for reference I will upload once I get them.

I found that ultimate control comes by striking deliberate targets to set thier body up for the next and the next... essentially controlling time and space...

Even whith the gun to the head or to the back...with the hands up in neutral striking the elbow joint of the gun hand with the forearm (looks like a side block)then striking the ear or the neck was a viable option... with the gun to your back utilizing the elbow from the neutral position upon rotation to strike the gun side forearm or hand depending coupled with an elbow tot he neck or a forearm to the throat to complete the rotation then continue striking accordingly... also, simply rotating to the side and behind the muzzle and striking the neck or the groin or even raking the eyes was also a viable option... it comes down to what instinctively comes at that moment based on that situation... keeping everything universal helps a great deal becuase its transferable no matter what... its not threat specific...
Of course this is my perception from my training and practice... we are all individuals that think-feel-see-smell-taste- and act differently...cleraly everyone is entitled to their own path.

One thing was for sure and that is nothng came without striking targets and getting that rotation and projecting through...

 

[MJS]

In reference to the "knife to the throat" from the front scenario... We went over it this Sunday and found that from the hands up in neutral position the scooping/pulling strike to the inner "knife hand" elbow joint while simultaneously striking the throat/neck or eyes was a viable intro...whereas the knife from behind utilized a pull/grab of the knife hand while rotating ans striking the groin or even the neck... we assumed that in these positions the threats non tool hand would be grabbing or clenching some portion of the upper body....

For myself, I'd rather grab closer to the hand that has the weapon, rather than the elbow joint. I do agree with the simultaneous strike though.

I have some pics for reference I will upload once I get them.

Looking forward to seeing them.

Even whith the gun to the head or to the back...with the hands up in neutral striking the elbow joint of the gun hand with the forearm (looks like a side block)then striking the ear or the neck was a viable option... with the gun to your back utilizing the elbow from the neutral position upon rotation to strike the gun side forearm or hand depending coupled with an elbow tot he neck or a forearm to the throat to complete the rotation then continue striking accordingly... also, simply rotating to the side and behind the muzzle and striking the neck or the groin or even raking the eyes was also a viable option... it comes down to what instinctively comes at that moment based on that situation... keeping everything universal helps a great deal becuase its transferable no matter what... its not threat specific...
Of course this is my perception from my training and practice... we are all individuals that think-feel-see-smell-taste- and act differently...cleraly everyone is entitled to their own path.

Again, as with the knife variation above, I'd prefer to strike closer to the hand. Question...with what you describe here, are you going to the inside or outside of the weapon hand? Just trying to picture this better.

One thing was for sure and that is nothng came without striking targets and getting that rotation and projecting through...

Agreed.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I too am a firm believer in striking targets and projecting. (on this we I think all agree) Were we differ is on the control aspect as I do not want the knife/stick/gun coming back on me. :erg: Real world experience has proven to me that control is essential in conjunction with strikes to soften the opponent. I have also seen the opposite side where control did not happen and walla the tool was brought back to bear on the defender.

 

[MJS]

I too am a firm believer in striking targets and projecting. (on this we I think all agree) Were we differ is on the control aspect as I do not want the knife/stick/gun coming back on me. :erg: Real world experience has proven to me that control is essential in conjunction with strikes to soften the opponent. I have also seen the opposite side where control did not happen and walla the tool was brought back to bear on the defender.

My thoughts exactly!

 

[BLACK LION]

With a knife from the front to the throat or side of neck we struck the inner crrok of the elbow joint instead of the metatarsels or radial nerve because the downward-rotating-pulling motion actually brings them closer to thier own blade and away from your neck and likewise draws them into the simultaneous strike. You can then secure the arm completely while striking them repeatedly until they drop. Try it.... especially if there are guys there with high pain tolerance you want to get them where they cant control it. Basically the same concept as a human standing up and you coming up and striking the back of the knee joint....the legs buckle. So in essence you are buckling the knife arm and drawing them closer while forcing theblade down and away from your neck while striking them as they come forward. We tried the grab strike...and we tride striking the forearm and the knife hand but nothing was as profound and predictable as the strike to the elbow crook.


With the gun to the face or head or neck we struck the outer portion of the elbow joint(hard part) from the outside and away with the forearm or hammer fist...this method knocks the gun out of the way and puts them in a compromising position becuase they have to backtrack and rotate the torso back to where they were in order to put you back in line with the muzzle... if you strike the inner arm all they have to do to line you up with the muzzle is naturaly bend the arm towards you... striking the outside of the arm and sending it sideways denies them the natural motor function and natural bend of the arm. We attempted a grab which equated to being shot in the face or torso and we also attemted radial nerve and hand strikes to no avail..... We also attempted to just rotate and project beyond the muzzle which also had positive results but could equate to a blown eardrum from a discharge next to the ear or being grazed.... nothing fatal though....

I am trying my best to articulate so please bear with me. I do plan on providing picture and video media for reference here in the near future.


Respectfully
Broderick

 

[BLACK LION]

I do see your side of the coin as well Brian and MJS. It would be easier to train more esoteric techniques to guys like you becuase you are wired for it as are most people on here. I try to keep it simple and universal becuase it is transferable from tool to tool... its easier to retain and execute. When I get into the nifty strips and disarms(especially the ones where you make them shoot or stab themselves) the lights go off and they are like whaaaa??? how?? but???? so I leave them be. This comes from a training others perspective and not necessarily my own ability or that of other trained martialists... I hope that makes sense as well.

Respectfully
Broderick

 

[MJS]

With a knife from the front to the throat or side of neck we struck the inner crrok of the elbow joint instead of the metatarsels or radial nerve because the downward-rotating-pulling motion actually brings them closer to thier own blade and away from your neck and likewise draws them into the simultaneous strike. You can then secure the arm completely while striking them repeatedly until they drop. Try it.... especially if there are guys there with high pain tolerance you want to get them where they cant control it. Basically the same concept as a human standing up and you coming up and striking the back of the knee joint....the legs buckle. So in essence you are buckling the knife arm and drawing them closer while forcing theblade down and away from your neck while striking them as they come forward. We tried the grab strike...and we tride striking the forearm and the knife hand but nothing was as profound and predictable as the strike to the elbow crook.


With the gun to the face or head or neck we struck the outer portion of the elbow joint(hard part) from the outside and away with the forearm or hammer fist...this method knocks the gun out of the way and puts them in a compromising position becuase they have to backtrack and rotate the torso back to where they were in order to put you back in line with the muzzle... if you strike the inner arm all they have to do to line you up with the muzzle is naturaly bend the arm towards you... striking the outside of the arm and sending it sideways denies them the natural motor function and natural bend of the arm. We attempted a grab which equated to being shot in the face or torso and we also attemted radial nerve and hand strikes to no avail..... We also attempted to just rotate and project beyond the muzzle which also had positive results but could equate to a blown eardrum from a discharge next to the ear or being grazed.... nothing fatal though....

I am trying my best to articulate so please bear with me. I do plan on providing picture and video media for reference here in the near future.


Respectfully
Broderick

I do see your side of the coin as well Brian and MJS. It would be easier to train more esoteric techniques to guys like you becuase you are wired for it as are most people on here. I try to keep it simple and universal becuase it is transferable from tool to tool... its easier to retain and execute. When I get into the nifty strips and disarms(especially the ones where you make them shoot or stab themselves) the lights go off and they are like whaaaa??? how?? but???? so I leave them be. This comes from a training others perspective and not necessarily my own ability or that of other trained martialists... I hope that makes sense as well.

Respectfully
Broderick

Almost forgot about these 2 posts, so I wanted to address them. First, any luck with the pics/vid that you mentioned? In another thread, I had posted these clips, which all contain some sort of control of the weapon. I would also like to point to these clips as well. Here. In this clip, around the 50sec mark, we see a knife to the throat. Seems like Dave is using both methods that we each described. He is controlling the hand as well as striking in the crook of the elbow. Its also interesting about 1:20, where he talks about the risks of not controlling the blade. This next clip features Dave again, about 2min in. Another clip with Dave, which contains a few gun disarms.

On a side note, I was at a seminar a few years ago. Dave was there and I had the chance to work with him for a short time. Nice guy, strong as hell and knows his stuff.

 

[BLACK LION]

I cant view videos thru flashplayer at work(firewall is tight)...so it sucks I cant see the visual reference you are making... I went through all the pics but I didnt find any that were really applicable... I dont know if some were deleted or not fully downloded since the camera we used was not mine... I am however working on getting video from a more professional source which I met with on sunday and demoed a lil bit... he used pro equipment and is stellar at production and editing in video and music...

I am working on it and not just blowing hot smoke up your arses ... I am also looking to purchase a domain name and set up a web site that will have a constand video feed to make reference to....

Its coming...

 

[MJS]

I cant view videos thru flashplayer at work(firewall is tight)...so it sucks I cant see the visual reference you are making... I went through all the pics but I didnt find any that were really applicable... I dont know if some were deleted or not fully downloded since the camera we used was not mine... I am however working on getting video from a more professional source which I met with on sunday and demoed a lil bit... he used pro equipment and is stellar at production and editing in video and music...

I am working on it and not just blowing hot smoke up your arses ... I am also looking to purchase a domain name and set up a web site that will have a constand video feed to make reference to....

Its coming...

No prob. I can't watch video at work either. Youtube is on the no-no list. LOL. Check them out when you can. As for the other stuff...whenever you can put it up is fine, no rush.

As for the domain and website...maybe Bob H can help you with that.