Mental disconnect in martial arts theory

[Buka]

That was nasty.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

If a weapons disarm is a last ditch thing for a skilled practitioner, why is it accepted as fact that the bad guy will be able to disarm you, and use your weapon against you? Is there even anecdotal evidence of bad guys successfully reversing weapons on people using them in self defense?

I think it has happened a few times, but i dont think thats much of a reason not to carry anything for self defence.

I think there is a statistic for it, but its more related to police and i think its uncommon, not too sure if it counted attempts or successful attempts. I personally watched a video last week of a attempt at a pistol.

Actually i will post some shiv works videos i can find which some people have put up of one of the training stages. From what i have seen, people drop knives and pistols in the heat of fighting so you get a mad rush to get it and such. If someone doesn't literally pry the weapon out of the hand anyway.

First one i could find, its 2V1 though.

But what someone put above, plenty of factors involved in this. if someone has or can fish out a statistic for this tag me into it.

 

[Buka]

Everyone at work was watching that vid last night. I'm pretty sure that's going to become a training film that will be widely used. It's a good heads up about how determined some people can be.

It also took me aback a bit at how utterly cold I've become about these things.

 

[Danny T]

Everyone at work was watching that vid last night. I'm pretty sure that's going to become a training film that will be widely used. It's a good heads up about how determined some people can be.

When I first viewed this after saying "You're TOO CLOSE!!", one of my first thoughts was this would make a great training film.

 

[JP3]

going up against knives, is a question if speed and power, if your fast enough and powerful enough once you've got hold if his arm, you can take it off him, if not your going to get stabbed

Or cut. Almost always cut. Even below average with an average-sharp blade, cuts happen all the time. I know some guys who do live blade demos with their knife defense seminars... but they don't allow anyone in the class to actually have live blades out... they use markers, like Sharpies, magic markers and highlighters... so you've effectively got a sort of usual-sized handle/hilt thing and maybe a quarter-inch blade.... now, go practice.

In about 1 minute of back and forth trying to "do stuff, all those marks on each of us trying to get the "blade" away.. it was ludicrous. It changed, and actually got better as we practiced as things like this do... but even at the end, we were getting "cut" nearly 100% of the time.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Or cut. Almost always cut. Even below average with an average-sharp blade, cuts happen all the time. I know some guys who do live blade demos with their knife defense seminars... but they don't allow anyone in the class to actually have live blades out... they use markers, like Sharpies, magic markers and highlighters... so you've effectively got a sort of usual-sized handle/hilt thing and maybe a quarter-inch blade.... now, go practice.

In about 1 minute of back and forth trying to "do stuff, all those marks on each of us trying to get the "blade" away.. it was ludicrous. It changed, and actually got better as we practiced as things like this do... but even at the end, we were getting "cut" nearly 100% of the time.

Part of what I like about this approach (though it does have problems, like any drill) is that there's sort of a tally at the end to give you a sanity check. When you practice with a soft knife, you can fool yourself into thinking you mostly didn't get cut. But when you have marks all over, it's tough to delude yourself.

 

[frank raud]

I think it has happened a few times, but i dont think thats much of a reason not to carry anything for self defence.

I think there is a statistic for it, but its more related to police and i think its uncommon, not too sure if it counted attempts or successful attempts. I personally watched a video last week of a attempt at a pistol.

Actually i will post some shiv works videos i can find which some people have put up of one of the training stages. From what i have seen, people drop knives and pistols in the heat of fighting so you get a mad rush to get it and such. If someone doesn't literally pry the weapon out of the hand anyway.

First one i could find, its 2V1 though.

But what someone put above, plenty of factors involved in this. if someone has or can fish out a statistic for this tag me into it.

I've been associated/ trained with/hosted seminars with Southnarc and Shivworks for almost 20 years. I am quite familiar with their work.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

I've been associated/ trained with/hosted seminars with Southnarc and Shivworks for almost 20 years. I am quite familiar with their work.

Good good.

Also i think i missed the point, i was going to write the issue with disarms and not working is, some people sell them in a manner of you wont get cut if trying to go for a blade. the methodology which most people see and show for demos is quite different from how you would apply that and set it up etc. And then as previously mentioned in self defence most people should have their alert on if someone is close enough to them to grab them etc where as police open carry usually and get themselves in situations where people can go for their pistol easier.

I will give you there is a weird duality but it might stem from ignorance of the realities of using weapons more so by the unarmed folks than the armed folks. Over estimating stopping power of firearms, how hard it is to kill someone, how quickly they can run etc. (No myth that no martial art has firearms in it, anything to do with firearms is usually not given the category of "martial arts school.)

The skillet of learning to disarm is a pretty circumstantial thing and has a pretty high risk to it. They arent something you can do that easily and they arent something you can do in every circumstance which wont result in death, incapacitation or maiming. (there is always a risk of that when trying these anyway) the disarm isnt really the most important thing in disarms anyway, its the set up, control of distance, distraction to counter ambush and aggression etc is more important than how you get the weapon off them or stop the threat as you wont have a high chance unless you set it up right.

I cant comment that much on it as i havent done it, but the only thing i can do is punch so you can expect me to if i cant run to be punching somone who is attacking me as my disarm.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Good good.

Also i think i missed the point, i was going to write the issue with disarms and not working is, some people sell them in a manner of you wont get cut if trying to go for a blade. the methodology which most people see and show for demos is quite different from how you would apply that and set it up etc. And then as previously mentioned in self defence most people should have their alert on if someone is close enough to them to grab them etc where as police open carry usually and get themselves in situations where people can go for their pistol easier.

I will give you there is a weird duality but it might stem from ignorance of the realities of using weapons more so by the unarmed folks than the armed folks. Over estimating stopping power of firearms, how hard it is to kill someone, how quickly they can run etc. (No myth that no martial art has firearms in it, anything to do with firearms is usually not given the category of "martial arts school.)

The skillet of learning to disarm is a pretty circumstantial thing and has a pretty high risk to it. They arent something you can do that easily and they arent something you can do in every circumstance which wont result in death, incapacitation or maiming. (there is always a risk of that when trying these anyway) the disarm isnt really the most important thing in disarms anyway, its the set up, control of distance, distraction to counter ambush and aggression etc is more important than how you get the weapon off them or stop the threat as you wont have a high chance unless you set it up right.

I cant comment that much on it as i havent done it, but the only thing i can do is punch so you can expect me to if i cant run to be punching somone who is attacking me as my disarm.

Well, if you can hit them hard enough to make them sit down, the weapon becomes less relevant.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

Well, if you can hit them hard enough to make them sit down, the weapon becomes less relevant.

Concussion is a concussion doesn't matter what you use to deal it with.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Forgive me if this looks jacked up,

“If a weapons disarm is a last ditch thing for a skilled practitioner, why is it accepted as fact that the bad guy will be able to disarm you, and use your weapon against?”

Years ago the Toledo Blade printed an FBI statistic that has stuck with me. In the given year (which be in the middle 90’s), of the 1258 women who pulled a gun on their attacker, all but 15 (yeah, it was really close to that number) had the gun taken away and used against them.

I couldn’t find this stat again if I had to, but that’s how I remember it.

I'd really like to see those statistics.

I've been intermittently looking for those stats over the last week/weekend. Haven't been able to find anything. Not just stats with those figures, I can't seem to find any statistics of females using guns and then having them used against them. It's also not archived (which would make sense given the time). Since I can't find those stats for any year, I would bet that there was either a misunderstanding of stats, or an opinion piece where someone pulled the number out from their *** to make a point in their article.

 

[Buka]

While I feel very comfortable and confident with a knife in my hand, I gave up trying to learn knife disarms years ago. The various ones I learned in various dojos just don't work for me.

 

[Danny T]

While I feel very comfortable and confident with a knife in my hand, I gave up trying to learn knife disarms years ago. The various ones I learned in various dojos just don't work for me.

We teach disarms. But not for sake of disarming. More for reference points and countering. When actually working disarm counters it is quickly apparent the counters are easier than the disarms are.
When it comes to disarms. Don't attempt a disarm if the weapon arm is undamaged or the person hasn't been disoriented.
Disarming should be a by-product of attacking. It happens because you have placed the weapon and weapon arm in a position that as you attack the disarm happens. Don't disarm for the sake of disarming.

 

[Buka]

We teach disarms. But not for sake of disarming. More for reference points and countering. When actually working disarm counters it is quickly apparent the counters are easier than the disarms are.
When it comes to disarms. Don't attempt a disarm if the weapon arm is undamaged or the person hasn't been disoriented.
Disarming should be a by-product of attacking. It happens because you have placed the weapon and weapon arm in a position that as you attack the disarm happens. Don't disarm for the sake of disarming.

This makes a great deal of sense to me.

 

[dvcochran]

Another thought - just about all of the successful knife disarms I've seen on video or heard about anecdotally were situations where the knife wielder was brandishing the knife to threaten and not really committing to an attack.

As a former LEO I can say when you deploy your baton on some idiot, said idiot tries to tie it up and take it. I think it's instinctual. That's why weapon retention is an important part of training.

It's also a lot easier to take a weapon than to use it effectively, but a bludgeoning by an untrained goon hurts too. Worse if it's your own stick he's beating you incorrectly with.

My major gripe with people using weapons is magical thinking. "I will carry X and when I brandish it my troubles will be ended." Perhaps, but not in the way yon knucklehead thinks.

Agree. The greatest point I try to drive home when teaching people at any level, be it unskilled to LEO, is IF you PULL a weapon of any kind it must be with the full intention to use it. This includes deterrents like pepper spray. Never as a scare tactic.
More to the point, there is so much mental angst in actually pulling the trigger, literally, that much of the mental preparation has to take place before hand. Repetition, repetition, repetition.
It is easy to talk about and discuss what Should happen in the moment. I do not believe any amount of repetition fully prepares a person but it is the best we can do. Some people can simply handle the pressures of intense encounters better than others.

 

[dvcochran]

We teach disarms. But not for sake of disarming. More for reference points and countering. When actually working disarm counters it is quickly apparent the counters are easier than the disarms are.
When it comes to disarms. Don't attempt a disarm if the weapon arm is undamaged or the person hasn't been disoriented.
Disarming should be a by-product of attacking. It happens because you have placed the weapon and weapon arm in a position that as you attack the disarm happens. Don't disarm for the sake of disarming.

Well said Danny. Made the point much better than I did.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Agree. The greatest point I try to drive home when teaching people at any level, be it unskilled to LEO, is IF you PULL a weapon of any kind it must be with the full intention to use it. This includes deterrents like pepper spray. Never as a scare tactic.
More to the point, there is so much mental angst in actually pulling the trigger, literally, that much of the mental preparation has to take place before hand. Repetition, repetition, repetition.
It is easy to talk about and discuss what Should happen in the moment. I do not believe any amount of repetition fully prepares a person but it is the best we can do. Some people can simply handle the pressures of intense encounters better than others.

I agree. And with respect to your last post, let me make an admission. The things I experienced in the Marines as a young man did not bother me, and I thought that I had escaped the mental and emotional consequences of them. Starting from my mid to late 50s, it turns out I was wrong, very wrong. I am suffering and paying the price and I never thought that bill would come due.

 

[dvcochran]

I agree. And with respect to your last post, let me make an admission. The things I experienced in the Marines as a young man did not bother me, and I thought that I had escaped the mental and emotional consequences of them. Starting from my mid to late 50s, it turns out I was wrong, very wrong. I am suffering and paying the price and I never thought that bill would come due.

Understood. If it helps to vent, by all means vent. Whatever it takes to help.

 

[Danny T]

I agree. And with respect to your last post, let me make an admission. The things I experienced in the Marines as a young man did not bother me, and I thought that I had escaped the mental and emotional consequences of them. Starting from my mid to late 50s, it turns out I was wrong, very wrong. I am suffering and paying the price and I never thought that bill would come due.

Bill...sorry to hear. Please get some help if you haven't as yet. I understand your pain. Things I closed off years ago from my stint in service and moved on from began to affect me in my late 50's. Visions suddenly began to creep into my dreams turning into nightmares and restless sleep. I'd wake up thinking I was there again. Then during the day something would thrust the emotions I had in check into chaos. Was able to get professional help and came to terms with somethings I had never addressed. Get some help Buddy.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Bill...sorry to hear. Please get some help if you haven't as yet. I understand your pain. Things I closed off years ago from my stint in service and moved on from began to affect me in my late 50's. Visions suddenly began to creep into my dreams turning into nightmares and restless sleep. I'd wake up thinking I was there again. Then during the day something would thrust the emotions I had in check into chaos. Was able to get professional help and came to terms with somethings I had never addressed. Get some help Buddy.

Those walls we put up have a lifespan don't they. Eventually they come down.