TMA and fighting.

[zzj]

I just watched this video from a guy with a refreshing perspective on the current state of TMA, and some interesting theories as to why.

As some of you know, I have been working at making my Wing Chun 'work' for fighting(with some success) by training in MMA because I feel that somewhere along the line something was lost. What he is talking about here plays into that, so I found it particularly interesting.

In general I agree with his views.

I would like to add the following:

1) For a lot of TMA's, especially those of Asian origin, the perceived prestige & prowess of the master/shifu/sensei etc. is of paramount importance, and so is 'face' and an almost paternal type of authority. This actively discourages masters from sparring with students in order to maintain that perception/authority; as such there is rarely a true sparring component in their school.

2) Speaking for tai chi chuan / taijiquan. People who gravitate towards it tend to be older nowadays and understandably are less inclined to want to actually fight, those who are younger or more inclined to want to spar/fight would quickly find out that tai chi is a really inefficient road to that goal and inevitably correct their own misstep by taking up something like Muay Thai or BJJ instead.

3) Some TMA's, especially those lumped under the 'internal' category (including Tai chi), place much more emphasis on cultivating the proper 'body' before moving to applications, and during that long initial stage, sparring may actually be counter-productive by reinforcing 'bad habits'. As a result, a lot of such schools lose touch with the application / sparring aspect of their MA's and instead base their legitimacy purely in exercises such as push hands or chi sao.

 

[macher]

In general I agree with his views.

I would like to add the following:

1) For a lot of TMA's, especially those of Asian origin, the perceived prestige & prowess of the master/shifu/sensei etc. is of paramount importance, and so is 'face' and an almost paternal type of authority. This actively discourages masters from sparring with students in order to maintain that perception/authority; as such there is rarely a true sparring component in their school.

2) Speaking for tai chi chuan / taijiquan. People who gravitate towards it tend to be older nowadays and understandably are less inclined to want to actually fight, those who are younger or more inclined to want to spar/fight would quickly find out that tai chi is a really inefficient road to that goal and inevitably correct their own misstep by taking up something like Muay Thai or BJJ instead.

3) Some TMA's, especially those lumped under the 'internal' category (including Tai chi), place much more emphasis on cultivating the proper 'body' before moving to applications, and during that long initial stage, sparring may actually be counter-productive by reinforcing 'bad habits'. As a result, a lot of such schools lose touch with the application / sparring aspect of their MA's and instead base their legitimacy purely in exercises such as push hands or chi sao.

If CMA was created for fighting and / or self protection then application should be the focus. It shouldn’t take you years to know how to use your system to fight / protect yourself. From the very first form you are taught you should be able to learn to apply the ‘mechanics’ of that form in a fight from the get go even if it doesn’t look good.

 

[zzj]

If CMA was created for fighting and / or self protection then application should be the focus. It shouldn’t take you years to know how to use your system to fight / protect yourself. From the very first form you are taught you should be able to learn to apply the ‘mechanics’ of that form in a fight from the get go even if it doesn’t look good.

CMA's as we know them today are not the military arts used on the battlefield. Most CMA styles are for better or worse, 'brand names', that focus on what differentiates them from other CMA styles; the training often focus on aspects that are more marginal but can be taken to a whole new level when trained diligently (conditioning of fingers and palms, trapping in WC, stepping in Bagua, relaxation and yielding in Tai chi etc.).

Since the 19th century CMA has become more of a health and Cultural pursuit due to events such as the Boxer Rebellion, and you would be hard-pressed to stand out and survive as a martial arts school if you taught nothing but vanilla boxing/wrestling etc.

As for Tai Chi, it is very much a past time for the rich/literati, and speaking as someone who has hands-on experience, the degree of body relaxation/sensitivity/internal conditioning required in order to pull off the techniques is almost ridiculous. It is definitely not something I can do without 5-10 years of training.

 

[macher]

CMA's as we know them today are not the military arts used on the battlefield. Most CMA styles are for better or worse, 'brand names', that focus on what differentiates them from other CMA styles; the training often focus on aspects that are more marginal but can be taken to a whole new level when trained diligently (conditioning of fingers and palms, trapping in WC, stepping in Bagua, relaxation and yielding in Tai chi etc.).

Since the 19th century CMA has become more of a health and Cultural pursuit due to events such as the Boxer Rebellion, and you would be hard-pressed to stand out and survive as a martial arts school if you taught nothing but vanilla boxing/wrestling etc.

As for Tai Chi, it is very much a past time for the rich/literati, and speaking as someone who has hands-on experience, the degree of body relaxation/sensitivity/internal conditioning required in order to pull off the techniques is almost ridiculous. It is definitely not something I can do without 5-10 years of training.

You can train Tai Chi ‘hard’ and still apply the applications. My Bagua teacher years ago taught us hard initially in order to apply the techniques right away etc, however the goal was relaxation/sensitivity/internal conditioning in order to pull off the technique.

 

[zzj]

You can train Tai Chi ‘hard’ and still apply the applications. My Bagua teacher years ago taught us hard initially in order to apply the techniques right away etc, however the goal was relaxation/sensitivity/internal conditioning in order to pull off the technique.

Yes you can apply it ‘hard’, but doing that habitually would impede progress to the real goal.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

CMA's as we know them today are not the military arts used on the battlefield. Most CMA styles are for better or worse, 'brand names', that focus on what differentiates them from other CMA styles; the training often focus on aspects that are more marginal but can be taken to a whole new level when trained diligently (conditioning of fingers and palms, trapping in WC, stepping in Bagua, relaxation and yielding in Tai chi etc.).

Since the 19th century CMA has become more of a health and Cultural pursuit due to events such as the Boxer Rebellion, and you would be hard-pressed to stand out and survive as a martial arts school if you taught nothing but vanilla boxing/wrestling etc.

As for Tai Chi, it is very much a past time for the rich/literati, and speaking as someone who has hands-on experience, the degree of body relaxation/sensitivity/internal conditioning required in order to pull off the techniques is almost ridiculous. It is definitely not something I can do without 5-10 years of training.

I think this is true of a lot of JMA, as well - the instructors tend to focus training and instruction on the differentiator (which, often, is more a marketing point). For example, Aikido often gets overly focused on developing aiki (sometimes to the exclusion of simple, effective, and easily accessible answers that are not aiki).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yes you can apply it ‘hard’, but doing that habitually would impede progress to the real goal.

That depends what the "real goal" is.

 

[zzj]

That depends what the "real goal" is.

Precisely. If your real goal is to be able to fight effectively in the short or medium term then tai chi wouldn’t be the best MA to commit to, which partially explains why there are very few proven tai chi fighters out there.

 

[macher]

Precisely. If your real goal is to be able to fight effectively in the short or medium term then tai chi wouldn’t be the best MA to commit to, which partially explains why there are very few proven tai chi fighters out there.

It’s not that Tai Chi isn’t effective for fighting it’s because the teachers aren’t teaching it as a fighting set from the get go.

 

[WaterGal]

The first part - "women's self defence" should usually be a separate thing, the attacks are usually different and the possible counters are also different due to body type. There is no one size fits all in my opinion.

Realistically, yeah, it should be a totally different thing from regular martial arts training. Most 'women's self-defense" classes are still fundamentally based on the premise that you'll be using standard martial arts techniques to fight off a scary bad guy that jumps out of an alley to rape you.

But realistically, women are mostly attacked by their romantic partners, family members, friends, workmates, community/religious leaders, or similar - people they have a reason to trust, and have a reason to not want to punch in the face in self-defense - and the attack is often preceded by boundary-crossing. So don't start with "here's a way a strange guy might to try to surprise-grab you in an alley" - start with teaching healthy boundaries and how to speak up against boundary-crossing. Teach how to watch out for red flags, and what to do if you see them.

Then, yes, the attacks are different. And if the attacker is a loved-one, the range of techniques that the defender might be emotionally prepared to use may be limited - that should be taken into account.

 

[macher]

Precisely. If your real goal is to be able to fight effectively in the short or medium term then tai chi wouldn’t be the best MA to commit to, which partially explains why there are very few proven tai chi fighters out there.

Precisely. If your real goal is to be able to fight effectively in the short or medium term then tai chi wouldn’t be the best MA to commit to, which partially explains why there are very few proven tai chi fighters out there.

Disagree if Tai Chi is taught on the focus of combat vs health then you’ll be taught how to fight.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Realistically, yeah, it should be a totally different thing from regular martial arts training. Most 'women's self-defense" classes are still fundamentally based on the premise that you'll be using standard martial arts techniques to fight off a scary bad guy that jumps out of an alley to rape you.

But realistically, women are mostly attacked by their romantic partners, family members, friends, workmates, community/religious leaders, or similar - people they have a reason to trust, and have a reason to not want to punch in the face in self-defense - and the attack is often preceded by boundary-crossing. So don't start with "here's a way a strange guy might to try to surprise-grab you in an alley" - start with teaching healthy boundaries and how to speak up against boundary-crossing. Teach how to watch out for red flags, and what to do if you see them.

Then, yes, the attacks are different. And if the attacker is a loved-one, the range of techniques that the defender might be emotionally prepared to use may be limited - that should be taken into account.

Do you know of a concise source for use as a starting point? Something that points out some of the common red flags and talks about how to address them? I realize it would likely be oversimplified, but that's okay for a starting point.

 

[JowGaWolf]

But realistically, women are mostly attacked by their romantic partners, family members, friends, workmates, community/religious leaders, or similar - people they have a reason to trust, and have a reason to not want to punch in the face in self-defense - and the attack is often preceded by boundary-crossing.

I think this is why many of the old martial arts teacher wanted to students to clear their minds of emotion. Don't spar with anger, fear, or uncertain. The only thing that should be in the mind is the action.

Like you stated. In terms of self-defense people are rarely taught how to deal with the mental reality of defending against attack. Emotions can get in the way and prevent you from doing what you need to do in order to be safe.

 

[JowGaWolf]

And if the attacker is a loved-one, the range of techniques that the defender might be emotionally prepared to use may be limited - that should be taken into account.

This should only be taken into account in terms of training and preparing the mind to brutally attack someone that you love in the event that you need to protect yourself. It shouldn't be taken into account what you are willing or not willing to do. If my wife came at with with a knife then I will do what I need to do in order to protect myself. Meaning if there is something I can use (like a chair) to stop my wife, then i will use it. If there is a class I can throw at her face then I will do it. These are the same things I would do to a stranger. The only thing I probably wouldn't do is intentionally stab her to death. Once my life threatening situation is over and I'm safe, then I will deal with that emotional crash of what I had to do. Trying to deal with those emotions during a dangerous situation is the wrong time to deal with it.

I've even told my wife that if I ever lost my mind one day then she should do what she needs to do to be safe from me. She can cry about hurting me and about me attacker her after she has stopped me. I literally had this type of talk with my wife. The reason why is because if I go crazy like that, then there's no guarantee that my son would be safe. I don't plan to go crazy, but you just never know what happens as we age. I'm not one who takes drugs so I don't plan on trying bath salts in my life.

It's a horrible way to see reality but to be honest anything is possible. We have heard of loving soldiers come back from war all messed up and aggressive. People who have a nervous break down or a mental illness. There is just a wide range of things that can change a good person into the opposite of who they really are. It's that reality that we all need to be able to come to terms with. We have seen evidence of mothers who killed their own family, children who have killed their own family. and everything in between.

#1 If you are in danger then protect yourself against the person or persons who are attacking you.
#2 After you are safe from the attacker then seek some help to get you through the emotions of having to protect yourself against a loved one. Even if you don't think you need it.

 

[zzj]

Disagree if Tai Chi is taught on the focus of combat vs health then you’ll be taught how to fight.

Of course you would be able to fight, it's a matter of opinion and school of thought as to whether you would be able to fully develop your 'tai chi' abilities in doing so. I have to admit that, as a beginner of less than 5 years' experience, I am merely speaking from a limited perspective and regurgitating opinions of my betters.

 

[zzj]

On a related side note. I had the pleasure of attending a workshop recently conducted by Sifu Liang De Hua.
He is an example of a TMA Tai Chi Chuan Teacher who advocates sparring for his students, and doing it in a way that uses the skills of Tai Chi rather than ending up with just another version of kick boxing.

friendly sparring session from years ago

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1892845937453351

example of his students engaged in controlled sparring

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1974148715989739

A very enjoyable video of Sifu Liang sharing his skills with a visitor from the US.

 

[macher]

On a related side note. I had the pleasure of attending a workshop recently conducted by Sifu Liang De Hua.
He is an example of a TMA Tai Chi Chuan Teacher who advocates sparring for his students, and doing it in a way that uses the skills of Tai Chi rather than ending up with just another version of kick boxing.

friendly sparring session from years ago

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1892845937453351

example of his students engaged in controlled sparring

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1974148715989739

A very enjoyable video of Sifu Liang sharing his skills with a visitor from the US.

When I practiced Bagua years ago our teacher was a huge advocate of sparring. We would spend 1/2 the time sparring. Since he knew a lot of boxers we would spar with boxers a lot. He advocated western boxing in the mix of Bagua.

 

[drop bear]

Realistically, yeah, it should be a totally different thing from regular martial arts training. Most 'women's self-defense" classes are still fundamentally based on the premise that you'll be using standard martial arts techniques to fight off a scary bad guy that jumps out of an alley to rape you.

But realistically, women are mostly attacked by their romantic partners, family members, friends, workmates, community/religious leaders, or similar - people they have a reason to trust, and have a reason to not want to punch in the face in self-defense - and the attack is often preceded by boundary-crossing. So don't start with "here's a way a strange guy might to try to surprise-grab you in an alley" - start with teaching healthy boundaries and how to speak up against boundary-crossing. Teach how to watch out for red flags, and what to do if you see them.

Then, yes, the attacks are different. And if the attacker is a loved-one, the range of techniques that the defender might be emotionally prepared to use may be limited - that should be taken into account.

When you learn any sort of fighting you are not just learning a specific response to a specific attack.

You are also learning concepts.

So when you change the scenario you are not changing the system. You are mostly changing the order of priorities.

So I don't really learn to change a tire on every individual car. I just learn to change a tire.

Situational specific trainers will place considerable weight on situational nuances.

So self defence guys will preach self defence. Womens self defence preach Womens SD and so on.

But it is the last 10% the other 90% is just being basically good.

A good MMA school should teach boundaries and red flags. For no self defence focus whatsoever. Just to create a better environment for its students.

(Hell every martial arts school should teach boundaries. It is part of being able to practice with girls)

 

[macher]

Of course you would be able to fight, it's a matter of opinion and school of thought as to whether you would be able to fully develop your 'tai chi' abilities in doing so. I have to admit that, as a beginner of less than 5 years' experience, I am merely speaking from a limited perspective and regurgitating opinions of my betters.

Yes it takes time to develop Fa Jin I’m not arguing against that. Learning to master Fa Jin is more advanced. However you can learn to strike from ‘loose body movements’ that will be a natural progression into Fa Jin. Loose body movements don’t use force. This is how I was being taught Bagua. Basic striking with loose body movements. My teacher told us that even in the higher levels there are strikes without Fa Jin.

If Tai Chi and Bagua are true fighting arts then isn’t the purpose to teach you how to self defend or fight initially? Why do you have to learn Fa Jin first(that takes years to develop) to be able to defend or fight yourself?