TKD history - trying to find lineage

[YounWha]

Hello -
I am a student of Youn Wha Ryu. I am currently updating/correcting our GM's lineage due to the fact that we think their was mistranslation when his biography was taken many years ago. I am trying to gather multiple sources to cross-reference his history and the history of TKD.

Below is what I have so far and if anyone can verify/confirm/question that would be great.

Man Hee Han - born May 9, 1938
Received 8th Dan (TKD) from the 57th Promotion Test Tae Kwon Do Jidokwan by Lee, Chong Woo
12/17/1972
a) Can anyone cofirm a testing on this date?
b) Did this certificate come form the KTA or WTF org?

Received instructor certificate from Un Yong Kim
11/30/1974
a) Could this certificate be from KTA?
b) When did KTA turn into WTF?

Thanks

 

[Dave Leverich]

Due strictly to timeline:
A. No idea, sorry.
B. KTA

For the second part,
A. no, WTF was the controlling body by that time.
B. KTA turned into the WTF in 73

 

[Master K]

Based on the timeline:
A. I have no idea as well. You will need to contact a senior member of the Jidokwan to confirm this.
B. Often times the schools issued their own certificates. Hard to say if it came from an organization or the school itself. If it was a "taekwondo" certificate, then in all likelihood it came from the KTA.

A. If the name on the Instructor's certificate is Un Yong Kim, then it came from the Kukkiwon.
B. The KTA never turned into the WTF.

The Korean Taekwondo Association (KTA) was formed in 1959 to facilitate the unification of the differing schools in Korea at the time. In 1972, the Korea Taekwondo Association Central Dojang was opened. A few months later, the name was changed to the Kukkiwon. In 1973, the World Taekwondo Federation was formed.

Although the terms "WTF" and "Kukkiwon" are often mistakenly used interchangeably to refer to this organization (KTA), the Kukkiwon is a completely different organization which trains and certifies instructors and issues official dan and poom certificates worldwide. If you examine a Kukkiwon certificate closely, you will notice that it states "Kukkiwon - World Taekwondo Headquarters" in its logo and on the certificate. I believe it is this phrase that people misread and come to the conclusion that the WTF and Kukkiwon can be used interchangeably.

I hope this helps clarify a few points regarding the KTA, Kukkiwon, and the WTF.

Best of luck to you,
Master K

 

[YounWha]

Thanks for the responses...and I have more questions that maybe you can answer.

If the KTA turned into the Kukkiwon (around 1972) - then is it possible to have an instructor certificate from the KTA in 1974 from Kim, Un Yong?

When did Kim, Un Yong become president of the KTA?

Second certificate:
7th Dan Hwarang Do rank certificate (unknown date) signed by Young, Chin (Jin) Park

Is this legitimate?
What is Youn, Chin Park's history ?
Was he an original Jidokwan member?
Is my spelling of his name correct?
Did he practice Hwarang Do?


Another point I am trying to find a correction on is Byung In Yoon's teaching history. According to our history - its states Man Hee Han trained with Byung In Yoon when he was 13. But when Man Hee Man was 13 the Korean War was going on (or just started). I read that Byung In Yoon was forced into North Korea and little record of his life after that has been recorded.

Could Man Hee Han have trained with Byung In Yoon during or after the Korean War?

If not then I will need to find out when he did train with Byung In Yoon. (Note: GM Han speaks very little english to this day).
My guess is that he trained before the Korean War with Byung In Yoon...but did Byung In Yoon train people as young as 13 years old?

Thanks for all your help !




I guess lastly - is there a number here in the US or an email I could send to a senior member about these question?

 

[Master K]

I believe Un Yong Kim became President of the KTA in 1971. It was my understanding that the KTA is a national governing body of Tae Kwon Do in South Korea. Regarding your question, "Is it possible to have an instructor certificate form the KTA in 1974 from Kim, Un Yong", I will need to research and get back to you. It may take a few days.

What is the date on the Hwarangdo certificate?

If you are speaking of Byung in Yoon the founder of the YMCA Kwon Bup, this is what I know of him. During the Korean war Byung In Yoon stayed in North Korea. I don't know if this was by choice or by force. Rumors have circulated that it was by choice. But no one has been able to confirm that. Byung In Yoon has remained in North Korea until his death in 1983. It is my understanding that no students had contact with Byung In Yoon while he was in North Korea.

I don't know Man Hee Han, but I suspect that if he did train with Byung In Yoon it was for a very short and limited time.

I have to run. I will write more when I have more time and info.

 

[rmclain]

Information about Yoon Byung-in was provided by his family in South Korea in 2005 & 2006. He went by choice to N. Korea with his brother, Yoon Byung-du, in August 1950. He was partially forced to stay in N. Korea the remainder of his life. Apparently, N. Korea is not free like the US.

http://www.kimsookarate.com/intro/yoon/Byung_In_YoonrevMay3.pdf

Photos: http://www.kimsookarate.com/gallery-present/06_Yoon/06_Yoon.htm

R. McLain

If you are speaking of Byung in Yoon the founder of the YMCA Kwon Bup, this is what I know of him. During the Korean war Byung In Yoon stayed in North Korea. I don't know if this was by choice or by force. Rumors have circulated that it was by choice. But no one has been able to confirm that. Byung In Yoon has remained in North Korea until his death in 1983. It is my understanding that no students had contact with Byung In Yoon while he was in North Korea.
quote]

 

[YounWha]

The correct name for our founder is Man, Han Hee.

Youn Wha translates to "Water Lily" I am told...
any verification on translation?

 

[boricua581]

I have been searching for a lineage. But it is very hard. But one thing that I think would help is when (a rough date) were the Palgue forms being developed? Would anybody know this?

 

[Master K]

If you are referring to the Palgwe forms associated with the Kukkiwon, the date of their origin is 1967.

 

[YounWha]

What about this -

Could Youn Wha actually be Yeon Hwa?

What is Yeon Hwa - other than it translates to Lotus Flower - a type of water lily...

 

[howard]

Hi,

Could Youn Wha actually be Yeon Hwa?

Yes, yeon would be better... the hangul is 연.

What is Yeon Hwa - other than it translates to Lotus Flower - a type of water lily...

For lotus flower, I find "yeon kot mu nwe" (연꽂무&#45740 in a pretty good online Korean dictionary. Hwa (&#54868 is usually translated as harmony.

Hope this helps...

 

[chrispillertkd]

For lotus flower, I find "yeon kot mu nwe" (연꽂무&#45740 in a pretty good online Korean dictionary. Hwa (&#54868 is usually translated as harmony.

I believe "Hwa" can also be translated as flower, can't it? Hence the translations of Hwarang as "Flowering manhood," and other such terms.

Pax,

Chris

 

[YounWha]

Ok- I am stumped now. Can you help out RMCLAIN?
I was told by a guy on another website that he had contacted
GM Kim Soo to ask about my Grandmaster (GM HAN). He said
and I quote:
"GM Kim Soo will not speak of GMH other than to say that he knows him. I've tried."

Does anyone know what would be going on between these two?
Seems like there is bad blood between GM Kim Soo and GM Han.

 

[terryl965]

Ok- I am stumped now. Can you help out RMCLAIN?
I was told by a guy on another website that he had contacted
GM Kim Soo to ask about my Grandmaster (GM HAN). He said
and I quote:
"GM Kim Soo will not speak of GMH other than to say that he knows him. I've tried."

Does anyone know what would be going on between these two?
Seems like there is bad blood between GM Kim Soo and GM Han.

I am not at libety to say but I can tell you this they know each other and that about sums it up. Sometimes it is better left between them and for everyone to just leave it alone.

I do relize you are just looking for answers but sometimes answer are just not availablt to all.

I hope you can see though the pages and carry on.

 

[YounWha]

I am not at libety to say but I can tell you this they know each other and that about sums it up. Sometimes it is better left between them and for everyone to just leave it alone.

I do relize you are just looking for answers but sometimes answer are just not availablt to all.

I hope you can see though the pages and carry on.

Well dang it...

Well all I know is that GM Han has told us he was not the nicest guy back in the day and even in a gang. He is now a christian man and speaks highly of church and God.

I guess that may have something to do with it...
Anymore leads I can pursue besides GM Kim Soo?

 

[YounWha]

The only thing I got now is an hypothesis on our forms in Youn Wha.

Looks like most of our forms follow the pattern of the Kang Duk Won/WTF schools (basic forms and palgue) and the black belt forms are partly Kang Duk Won/WTF combinations.


Holy *bleep* I just figured something out...and possibly why Kim Soo and Han are ...going to check on something...

 

[boricua581]

It is all pretty confusing. Thank you Master K for the year in which the Palgwe froms were developed. It helped me. If everything I have is right, which I am pretty sure it is, from everything I looked up so far, then it should give a rough timeline. I hope this helps.


1937 or 38- GM Han born
1943- GM Han started training with Son Bop Sa
1949- Went back home
1950-Started training with Yoon Byung-In (but it is said that he left Korea that same year)


Achieved 8th dan in Hap Ki Do and Hwarang-Do, a 7th Dan in Kendo, and a 4th Dan in Judo (no dates found)

1967- Palgwe forms developed
1970-1976- Trained army

this is that past "records" that I have found so far. It helps a lot to look at it as a whole. There is another thing that is weird. But i also need help on this one too. Because I heard that GM Han was in the Korean army for some time, but I have no dates on that. And I am not sure when and where he was stationed or any of that information. But anyways. My Grandmaster in my other association was in the army too. But not at the same time as GM Han. My GM is younger than him, BUT his father was in the Korean army. Now here is the weird twist. My Grandmaster's father was assassinated. As far as I know, his father was a general, And Im guessing that they have the same last name. So his name is General Choi (but NOT the founder of ITF). The other part of the story is, that my instructor was telling me about GM Han telling sotries about a Gen. Choi who made POOR decisions. And here's the weird part. He said that the General was later assassinated. :erg: I thought that was really weird. Maybe somebody could help me too. I am still lookin around for info and stuff.

 

[YounWha]

boricua581 -
I see you train in Youn Wha Ryu as well (2nd Dan).
Which area do you train out of?

If you go to www.masterhans.com that has to evolving/updating events on GMH. I am talking to someone down there to help with the lineage. PM me your email and we can correspond from there about our findings.

According to their web site - we have this information:
May 9, 1938 GMH BORN

I was also told a story about General Choi and GMH - but it points to the Choi that founded the ITF - and that GMH was drinking a lot one night talking to Gen. Choi about his plans to bring korean martial arts abroad...and that Gen. Choi took GMH's ideas and used them to start the ITF...and now that's why GMH does not drink.

Put this in your time line as well:
1972 - GMH received 8th Dan from TKD Jidokwan 57th promotional testing
by Lee, Chong Woo

1974 - Received Instructor's certificate from Korea TKD Assn, signed by Kim, Un Yong dated 30 Nov, 1974

Let me know where you found information about GMH being in the korean military.

 

[YounWha]

Ok - this just slammed into me last night and I went to research it.

Our Chest Patch (fist punching) is exactly the same as the Kang Duk Won patches and located in the same spot on the uniforms.

Add the chest patch/forms in our system matching/GM Kim Soo knowing GMH - All this makes me believe that our system came from Kang Duk Won. Saying this also leads me to believe we are training on a more traditional style of TKD (mostly - some Okinawan and Judo in there).

GMH does not associate himself with WTF or the Kukkiwon or KTA (not that I know of) so our system and belts probably/mostly not recognized.



Is GM Kim Soo's system is still recognized by the Kukkiwon/KTA/WTF?

 

[YounWha]

Just in case if you missed it...

Is GM Kim Soo's system (Chayon Ryu) recognized by the Kukkiwon/KTA/WTF?