TKD blah blah blah Martial art Blah blah blah

[dancingalone]

Rare though.

Depends on what we mean by rare. If we want to compare elite Olympic fighters to other martial arts segments, we should do so with a fair hand. Look at the top people in other disciplines and systems, rather than looking at average students with average training.

Elite practitioners stay in shape, generally even as they age. Look at people like Henry Kono Sensei from Aikido who can still take a graceful fall at his age or Shingu Gushi Sensei from Pan Gai Noon who is noticeably fit and strong well into his sixties/early seventies(?).

Everyone needs a goal to train for. One thing about competition is that it gives practitioners a tangible goal. I think students who do not compete find it hard to continue training because they lack goals, especially after they receive their black belt. It can get tiring to train for the life or death self defense situation against the big bad ex felon that never happens. True, we might suffer from a nuclear attack one day, but probably not, so wouldn't it be better to spend our time on something other than fortifying the bomb shelter in the backyard? There comes a point where being "ever vigilant" gets boring, especially for the soccer mom, the 12 year old pre teen or other non LEO non-military personnel.

<shrugs> I can only speak anecdotally. I still get a thrill from training even though I do not train for competition. Part of keeping interest over time is to find newer and different challenges if we need it. In my own personal training, I've added things like knife work which is a dramatic departure from the kobudo I have trained in. I've also gained a lot of enthusiasm as a teacher by taking on younger students while laying out a TKD curriculum infused with other non-KMA ideas and techniques.

What is a "sport school"? I ask because as I have stated previously, I only know of two in the United States, one is in Miami (Juan Moreno), and another in Los Angeles (Scott Fujii).

The majority of TKD schools in the US have some elements of sport training within them. If you point spar or do WTF rules sparring, you are training sport, no? If you practice forms with an aim to perform them towards competition standards, you are training sport, no? I would call a school a 'sport school' if their activities comprise of things like these to a primary extent.

So, no, you don't have to be an elite Olympic coach like Mr. Moreno to run a sport school by my definition.

How is training harder, becoming stronger faster and more aware in the process, become a hinderance?

You do not believe a person can groove in mental tactical considerations and gross physical movement from one activity that might be inefficient or ineffective for another activity? This happens all the time and not just in martial arts.

With the exception that the rugby player (Self defense guy) never actually plays a game and instead is training for a game that will probably never happen.

Not really. Even if he never uses what he has learned in the 'street', the training within the dojang still is viable and valid on its own merits. If we take the premise that a martial artist will never be in a real fight, there's really no qualitative outcome between the sport guy nor the SD guy. They're just training in different activities. Tournaments for the sport guy, perhaps a few seminars for the SD guy.

 

[puunui]

Depends on what we mean by rare. If we want to compare elite Olympic fighters to other martial arts segments, we should do so with a fair hand. Look at the top people in other disciplines and systems, rather than looking at average students with average training.

I would say anyone competing at a black belt division at USAT JOs or Nationals would be an elite competitor. That used to be the definition of "Elite", someone who competed at USTU National Events. I believe that is where Jean Lopez and Paris Amani got the name from for their dojang. I don't know how many self defense types there are out there doing Taekwondo, and of that group, how many are running marathons. I would think that is rare. From what I see out there, the ones who focus on "self defense", at least in Taekwondo, tend to be out of shape.

Elite practitioners stay in shape, generally even as they age. Look at people like Henry Kono Sensei from Aikido who can still take a graceful fall at his age or Shingu Gushi Sensei from Pan Gai Noon who is noticeably fit and strong well into his sixties/early seventies(?).

Are the training primarily for self defense, or for other reasons? I would think the practitioners who are in their sixties and seventies are training primarily for other reasons. I know I will be training for other reasons when I am that age.

<shrugs> I can only speak anecdotally. I still get a thrill from training even though I do not train for competition. Part of keeping interest over time is to find newer and different challenges if we need it. In my own personal training, I've added things like knife work which is a dramatic departure from the kobudo I have trained in. I've also gained a lot of enthusiasm as a teacher by taking on younger students while laying out a TKD curriculum infused with other non-KMA ideas and techniques.

You are still young. Give it ten, fifteen, twenty years. I would like to hear your perspective then.

The majority of TKD schools in the US have some elements of sport training within them. If you point spar or do WTF rules sparring, you are training sport, no? If you practice forms with an aim to perform them towards competition standards, you are training sport, no? I would call a school a 'sport school' if their activities comprise of things like these to a primary extent.

The majority of students at Taekwondo schools in the US train primarily for reasons other than self defense or competition, even though there are probably at least some elements of self defense and competition training in their regular workouts. That is why I think the whole "sport vs. self defense" is wrong, because most people don't train for either of those reasons. Taekwondo was meant to be an art of inclusion; once we start labeling taekwondo schools as this or that, sport or traditional or self defense or whatever, we start excluding people with that label. Taekwondo is Taekwondo, no matter what the focus of the instructor or the school.

So, no, you don't have to be an elite Olympic coach like Mr. Moreno to run a sport school by my definition.

Even if we accept your definition that those that include "sport" training is a "sport school", if you ask anyone at any highly competitive dojang, you will learn that maybe 10 or 15% of the student body are actively focused on national or international competition, if that. For instance, if a dojang which has 300 members sends 30 competitors to a tournament, then that is a large turnout. And what about the other 270 members? Do we still lump everyone together and say "he comes from a sport school", when in fact he or she never competes? I would think that in order to qualify as a "sport school", then the majority of members have to be competing on a regular basis. Using that as the definition, I can only come up with two schools that do that.

You do not believe a person can groove in mental tactical considerations and gross physical movement from one activity that might be inefficient or ineffective for another activity? This happens all the time and not just in martial arts.

I think any hinderances that come from competition training can easily be overcome, that the benefits of increased ability and qualities far outweighs any "bad habits" that some may think have arisen.

Not really. Even if he never uses what he has learned in the 'street', the training within the dojang still is viable and valid on its own merits. If we take the premise that a martial artist will never be in a real fight, there's really no qualitative outcome between the sport guy nor the SD guy. They're just training in different activities. Tournaments for the sport guy, perhaps a few seminars for the SD guy.

That is basically how it evolves, right? Personally, I wasn't into tournaments all that much growing up. I did martial arts to learn how to fight. I wanted to be able to handle myself against anyone, no matter how big, fast, strong, or scary they were. There is something to be said for going against someone mano a mano that is appealing to me. They are throwing their all at you, land you have to respond, adapt and overcome. I like that challenge. I still do. It was only later when I found how easy it is to beat most people up did I evolve into trying to understand and "get" Olympic style sparring. It look years to understand that one, much longer than it took to learn how to "defend" myself. Frankly, I still feel like I don't understand it to the level that I could or should.

 

[RobinTKD]

Is it all just black and white with you people? Sport or Self Defence? How about learning the art to master yourself? I have no wish to enter tournies, and I don't practice nothing but self defence, I train so that I can become the best I can be at Taekwon Do, and to be the best person I can be. Surely all martial arts stem from the want to be your own master?

 

[dancingalone]

I would say anyone competing at a black belt division at USAT JOs or Nationals would be an elite competitor. That used to be the definition of "Elite", someone who competed at USTU National Events.

OK. I'm afraid I don't have as handy of an objective criterion to designate who is elite in my book for people from other disciplines.

I've mentioned Kono Sensei and Gushi Sensei. Yamada Shihan is in good shape for his age. Richard Amos Sensei. Byung In Lee Kwan Jang. And so on. The majority of the noted teachers in virtually any style I can think of all are fit people, even if they are older and naturally have slowed down.

I believe that is where Jean Lopez and Paris Amani got the name from for their dojang. I don't know how many self defense types there are out there doing Taekwondo, and of that group, how many are running marathons. I would think that is rare. From what I see out there, the ones who focus on "self defense", at least in Taekwondo, tend to be out of shape.

Does John Pelligrini still count as a TKD guy? I recently met him and he was in pretty decent shape to my eye. He certainly wasn't Foot Fist Way material.

I don't think we can generalize. Drive to any large city with a good assortment of martial arts schools and we'll see instructors come in all shapes and sizes. Yes, I've seen my share of out-of-shape guys. I've also seen guys who still look like nails. And I know of at least 2 MA instructors that run marathons.

Are the training primarily for self defense, or for other reasons? I would think the practitioners who are in their sixties and seventies are training primarily for other reasons. I know I will be training for other reasons when I am that age.

I think both gentlemen would agree with you. Most people who have stayed in the arts for a time eventually have different motivations for training. You'd hope that people would learn how to defend themselves to an adequate level early on.

At the same time, as an instructor, I think it's important for my students, particularly colored belts, to focus on attaining SD skills foremost. It is fine to me if they want to learn how to protect themselves - in fact, it is my preference otherwise they are not a good fit to learn from me with my methods given my chosen focus.

You are still young. Give it ten, fifteen, twenty years. I would like to hear your perspective then.

It would be something if in 20 years I could tell you what I think. May it be so.

The majority of students at Taekwondo schools in the US train primarily for reasons other than self defense or competition, even though there are probably at least some elements of self defense and competition training in their regular workouts. That is why I think the whole "sport vs. self defense" is wrong, because most people don't train for either of those reasons. Taekwondo was meant to be an art of inclusion; once we start labeling taekwondo schools as this or that, sport or traditional or self defense or whatever, we start excluding people with that label. Taekwondo is Taekwondo, no matter what the focus of the instructor or the school.

I understand where you are coming from with this.

At this time my perspective is different. We all have finite time in which to accomplish our goals. Since passing on usable fighting skills is my utmost priority, I feel the curriculum I teach must match that goal, and when prospective students come to my door, it's very useful to use descriptions like self-defense oriented or pattern-based or traditional because they explain what I do very well.

Even if we accept your definition that those that include "sport" training is a "sport school", if you ask anyone at any highly competitive dojang, you will learn that maybe 10 or 15% of the student body are actively focused on national or international competition, if that. For instance, if a dojang which has 300 members sends 30 competitors to a tournament, then that is a large turnout. And what about the other 270 members? Do we still lump everyone together and say "he comes from a sport school", when in fact he or she never competes? I would think that in order to qualify as a "sport school", then the majority of members have to be competing on a regular basis. Using that as the definition, I can only come up with two schools that do that.

Do the other 270 members train in something completely different? I'd like to see a granular breakdown of what they do exactly. (Not that I am asking or challenging you to provide one - this comment is by way of illustration.) It's a matter of what they are doing with their time. If you point spar a lot in class, regardless of the intent to compete in a tournament, you're doing sport MA. If you worry more about aesthetics when performing forms than intent or application, you're doing sport MA.

I think any hinderances that come from competition training can easily be overcome, that the benefits of increased ability and qualities far outweighs any "bad habits" that some may think have arisen.

Maybe. Maybe not. I'll give an example from tennis since we both play. I learned tennis with an eastern forehand grip since I was taught a classic attacking game with an intent to finish the point at the net. This made sense in the old days since everyone had those wooden racquets and unless you were a rare talent like Borg, it was pretty tough to hit clean winners off the ground with your woodie. Nowadays with the racquets and copolymer strings available, it's almost suicide to come to net against the young guns. So, I've added a semi-western forehand to get more topspin so I could hang in the back court with these guys and wait more judiciously for the right time to come in.

It wasn't easy learning my new forehand. The grip and swing path is very different feeling compared to the classic forehand. The contact point is different, as is the follow-through and even the footwork! And they are both forehand strokes hit off the same side! It was a long time before I could use the new stroke in a match without getting clobbered, and in fact my old technique hindered me since they built off of that old stroke. Approach shots, return of serves, etc... those likewise were entirely new shots when I wanted to use the new forehand grip.

I think the analogy comes through for MA activities also. You train in something long enough you will groove in certain brain pathways that make the activity easier, but it will make others undoubtedly tougher. Some people can adapt readily, others can't; so it makes sense to train in what you consider important rather than a generic assumption that just acquiring attributes of speed and movement will help you.

That is basically how it evolves, right? Personally, I wasn't into tournaments all that much growing up. I did martial arts to learn how to fight. I wanted to be able to handle myself against anyone, no matter how big, fast, strong, or scary they were. There is something to be said for going against someone mano a mano that is appealing to me. They are throwing their all at you, land you have to respond, adapt and overcome. I like that challenge. I still do. It was only later when I found how easy it is to beat most people up did I evolve into trying to understand and "get" Olympic style sparring. It look years to understand that one, much longer than it took to learn how to "defend" myself. Frankly, I still feel like I don't understand it to the level that I could or should.

From my perspective, Olympic sparring is a 'new' thing with constantly evolving conditions such as the electronic scoring. Small wonder that it takes a while to get a grip on it, and as the sport evolves, the competitor and coach had better do it too.

I think it is fair to say that SD study is more static, although arguably it is also more vast.

 

[dancingalone]

Is it all just black and white with you people? Sport or Self Defence?

No. But the thread is about these two aspects of martial arts. I agree there are other facets that can be explored or delved into.

How about learning the art to master yourself? I have no wish to enter tournies, and I don't practice nothing but self defence, I train so that I can become the best I can be at Taekwon Do, and to be the best person I can be. Surely all martial arts stem from the want to be your own master?

If you're asking me personally, I started martial arts as a kid because I wanted to learn how to fight. Self-mastery wasn't something I thought about much at that age, and by the time I became cognizant enough to wonder about such things, I already had a good measure of self-discipline from the upraising my parents reared me with.

Now as a teacher, I realize there are benefits to training that range beyond the physical. That is good. However, I have the firm belief that such benefits should be tangential to the primary purpose we are all there. In my school, things like learning discipline or perseverance or how to get along with each other all occur because we are there learning how to fight to defend ourselves in the first place.

I understand others have other opinions or have positioned their school differently and that too is fine.

 

[puunui]

I've mentioned Kono Sensei and Gushi Sensei. Yamada Shihan is in good shape for his age. Richard Amos Sensei. Byung In Lee Kwan Jang. And so on. The majority of the noted teachers in virtually any style I can think of all are fit people, even if they are older and naturally have slowed down.

I have only seen GM Lee in action. He was always endomorphic I would say, and the recent photos I have viewed makes me think he has gotten more so over the years. But I would have to say that he might be one of my favorite Kuk Sool practitioners. He was certainly the best kicker of his group. When he lived in the SF bay area, they used to say he was Kuk Sool's version of Taekwondo GM William Kim. They had very similar styles.

Does John Pelligrini still count as a TKD guy? I recently met him and he was in pretty decent shape to my eye. He certainly wasn't Foot Fist Way material.

I don't know what GM Pelligrini is. I think of him more as Hapkido than Taekwondo. Funny, but I remember reading that he first learned Hapkido from Master SONG Ji Sung. Master Song lived in Hawaii for about seven or eight years, and during that time, no one saw him do any Hapkido. His younger brother, Master SONG Min Suk had some KHA certification though, even though no one saw him do any Hapkido when he lived and taught in Hawaii either.

I think both gentlemen would agree with you. Most people who have stayed in the arts for a time eventually have different motivations for training. You'd hope that people would learn how to defend themselves to an adequate level early on.

Nothing wrong with that approach, taking it from the bottom rung of Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs. I think the problem is when we stay at that level and only hang out there and not explore the higher levels as we advance.

It would be something if in 20 years I could tell you what I think. May it be so.

I'll still be around in 20 years.

At this time my perspective is different. We all have finite time in which to accomplish our goals. Since passing on usable fighting skills is my utmost priority, I feel the curriculum I teach must match that goal, and when prospective students come to my door, it's very useful to use descriptions like self-defense oriented or pattern-based or traditional because they explain what I do very well.

But then people don't stop there, they continue on and say "I do self defense, I am a real martial artist, other do sport." Nothing wrong with carving out your own niche and attracting like minded individuals to train. But that doesn't mean we have to degrade others for doing the same thing, in a different way.

Do the other 270 members train in something completely different? I'd like to see a granular breakdown of what they do exactly.

I think that ordinary or regular dojang students do train differently than the competition oriented. For one thing, the competition oriented train harder longer and do different drills, which involve contact. Regular students can avoid all of that and still remain students of the school. I cannot speak for the self defense oriented because generally there are no self defense specialty classes, at least not at most commercial dojang that is accessible to most students.

(Not that I am asking or challenging you to provide one - this comment is by way of illustration.) It's a matter of what they are doing with their time. If you point spar a lot in class, regardless of the intent to compete in a tournament, you're doing sport MA. If you worry more about aesthetics when performing forms than intent or application, you're doing sport MA.

What if you are moving around in class, doing whatever, your main focus being stress relief and exercise? Is that person doing sport MA too?

Maybe. Maybe not. I'll give an example from tennis since we both play. I learned tennis with an eastern forehand grip since I was taught a classic attacking game with an intent to finish the point at the net. This made sense in the old days since everyone had those wooden racquets and unless you were a rare talent like Borg, it was pretty tough to hit clean winners off the ground with your woodie. Nowadays with the racquets and copolymer strings available, it's almost suicide to come to net against the young guns. So, I've added a semi-western forehand to get more topspin so I could hang in the back court with these guys and wait more judiciously for the right time to come in.

It's all baseline now. But I sometimes watch classic matches and they were pretty baseline oriented as well.

It wasn't easy learning my new forehand. The grip and swing path is very different feeling compared to the classic forehand. The contact point is different, as is the follow-through and even the footwork! And they are both forehand strokes hit off the same side! It was a long time before I could use the new stroke in a match without getting clobbered, and in fact my old technique hindered me since they built off of that old stroke. Approach shots, return of serves, etc... those likewise were entirely new shots when I wanted to use the new forehand grip.

Footwork... are you adopting open stance now? I still do the old stance as well, good basics I think, and also try to incorporate open stance more. So you still need both. And skills that are transferable would be watching the ball as it hits the strings instead lifting your head up, serving, single hand backhand is the same, volley is same, doubles is the same, clothes are the same, court is the same, net is the same, etc. So while you find yourself struggling with your new forehand, you still have a lot of skills that took years to learn which are still available to you. And I don't think it is even a fair comparison, because the objective is to still win a game. A more appropriate analogy for you would be you were a square shouldered chain punching wing chun guy and now you are trying to learn boxing.

From my perspective, Olympic sparring is a 'new' thing with constantly evolving conditions such as the electronic scoring. Small wonder that it takes a while to get a grip on it, and as the sport evolves, the competitor and coach had better do it too.

It is some of that, but also I don't really keep up with all of the players, all of the referees, all the rule changes and its nuances, that sort of thing. Before I could quote the rules off the top of my head, I knew every international player's game, especially for certain divisions, could give the name and country of the IRs, etc. Now I couldn't tell you who the referees are at USAT national events. I think I understand the basic game pretty well, and can still analyze matches and players, and that sort of thing, but I have moved on from that stuff to a different focus and a different area of Taekwondo. I am less interested in competition, just like I was less interested in self defense before that.

I think it is fair to say that SD study is more static, although arguably it is also more vast.

More vast, but at the same time, also more narrow.

 

[yorkshirelad]

4) What happens if you're called upon to defend a friend,loved one,or innocent? What happens if you see someone undergoing say an asthma attack and their inhaler is say 3-400 meters away at their house or in their car? Doesn't happen much,but it HAS happened to me.Twice.A complete stranger's friend went into insulin shock once at the basketball court and a cousin of my friend's friend had an asthma attack.Both times their medikits were in their cars parked about 300 meters away..

Very good point!!

 

[mango.man]

What is a "sport school"? I ask because as I have stated previously, I only know of two in the United States, one is in Miami (Juan Moreno), and another in Los Angeles (Scott Fujii).

Google "Sport Taekwondo" School. I see lots:
Pruter's U.S. Martial Arts and Sport Taekwondo
FastKick Martial Arts and Sport Taekwondo
Yi Sport Taekwondo
Louisiana Sport Taekwondo
Global Sport Taekwondo Academy
Power Sport Taekwondo Martial Arts Academy
Remark Sport Taekwondo
Victory Sport Taekwondo
GT Sport Taekwondo
The Poos Taekwondo Fitness & Sport school
Sport Taekwondo (Hoboken NJ)
LCRD Sport Taekwondo Center

Hmm Peak didn't even make the first 3 pages of hits. Then again neither did Team-X Sport TKD. I need to talk to Joseph about that.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Google "Sport Taekwondo" School. I see lots:
Pruter's U.S. Martial Arts and Sport Taekwondo
FastKick Martial Arts and Sport Taekwondo
Yi Sport Taekwondo
Louisiana Sport Taekwondo
Global Sport Taekwondo Academy
Power Sport Taekwondo Martial Arts Academy
Remark Sport Taekwondo
Victory Sport Taekwondo
GT Sport Taekwondo
The Poos Taekwondo Fitness & Sport school
Sport Taekwondo (Hoboken NJ)
LCRD Sport Taekwondo Center

Hmm Peak didn't even make the first 3 pages of hits. Then again neither did Team-X Sport TKD. I need to talk to Joseph about that.

Interesting, certainly appears like there's more than just two.

 

[dancingalone]

But then people don't stop there, they continue on and say "I do self defense, I am a real martial artist, other do sport." Nothing wrong with carving out your own niche and attracting like minded individuals to train. But that doesn't mean we have to degrade others for doing the same thing, in a different way.

I can only control my own actions. I think I've been clear that while I'm not interested in some things that other people are, I still believe their choices are valid for themselves. At the same time, I'll acknowledge that I think TKD (really all MA in general too) practitioners as a whole should reflect on where they current stand and ask if they might need to reorient to the practical application side.

What if you are moving around in class, doing whatever, your main focus being stress relief and exercise? Is that person doing sport MA too?

That person is engaging in martial dance. Not necessarily a bad thing, but it's not my cup of tea. Kind of like the contrast between the health tai chi people, and the much smaller group that practice it as a fighting system.

Footwork... are you adopting open stance now? I still do the old stance as well, good basics I think, and also try to incorporate open stance more.

Yep. I pretty much use an open stance always on service returns now. I've dabbled with a two-handed backhand also, but have reverted to the one-hander, and I can't figure out how to hit a good one handed shot with an open stance.

And I don't think it is even a fair comparison, because the objective is to still win a game. A more appropriate analogy for you would be you were a square shouldered chain punching wing chun guy and now you are trying to learn boxing.

Probably so.

It is some of that, but also I don't really keep up with all of the players, all of the referees, all the rule changes and its nuances, that sort of thing. Before I could quote the rules off the top of my head, I knew every international player's game, especially for certain divisions, could give the name and country of the IRs, etc. Now I couldn't tell you who the referees are at USAT national events. I think I understand the basic game pretty well, and can still analyze matches and players, and that sort of thing, but I have moved on from that stuff to a different focus and a different area of Taekwondo. I am less interested in competition, just like I was less interested in self defense before that.

May I ask what your focus is now?

 

[RRepster]

seriously when was the last time any of you was in a real life or death stitiaution?

Every time I get into a car or try to cross the street. Everytime I lay my head to go to sleep. Everytime I walk out my door. Everytime I trust a chair to support my weight. Everytime I start my lawnmower up. A decade ago in the military far too often. Get my drift yet? There is danger all around you every second of the day. We are a spec on a spec of a planet whirling around a spec of a star in a spec of a galaxy. Even a football player who trains properly will have a heightened awareness compared to the average individual. Martial Arts just happens to be what those of us on this forum practice to keep that awareness level up.

 

[puunui]

Google "Sport Taekwondo" School. I see lots:
Pruter's U.S. Martial Arts and Sport Taekwondo
FastKick Martial Arts and Sport Taekwondo
Yi Sport Taekwondo
Louisiana Sport Taekwondo
Global Sport Taekwondo Academy
Power Sport Taekwondo Martial Arts Academy
Remark Sport Taekwondo
Victory Sport Taekwondo
GT Sport Taekwondo
The Poos Taekwondo Fitness & Sport school
Sport Taekwondo (Hoboken NJ)
LCRD Sport Taekwondo Center

Hmm Peak didn't even make the first 3 pages of hits. Then again neither did Team-X Sport TKD. I need to talk to Joseph about that.

My question was in reference to the comment "sport only" schools. Frankly I only know of two. Perhaps Team X would be number three. I looked up the first two on the list, Pruter's and Fastkick, and both teach "self defense" as well, even though their name is "sport taekwondo".

 

[puunui]

That person is engaging in martial dance. Not necessarily a bad thing, but it's not my cup of tea. Kind of like the contrast between the health tai chi people, and the much smaller group that practice it as a fighting system.

"Martial dance". So the health tai chi people are "real" martial artists then?

Yep. I pretty much use an open stance always on service returns now. I've dabbled with a two-handed backhand also, but have reverted to the one-hander, and I can't figure out how to hit a good one handed shot with an open stance.

My coach told me that return of serves are almost like a volley now. I don't like two handed backhand. I prefer the more classic one hand, like Roger Federer. One of my coaches used to teach his kids to use two hands on the racquet for forehand and backhand. I hardly play tennis anymore. Maybe only once or twice this year so far. Didn't even watch any grand slams on tv this year either.

May I ask what your focus is now?

My focus of my physical training is for mainly health now. To that end, I try to concentrate on correct form. I believe that correct form and correct principles will allow me to continue to train into my advanced years. I see some of my friends who continue to try to train like they did when they were younger and they as well as their students tend to get injured. I don't want that result, so I have been spending a lot of time going on correct form. I don't want to have pains in my ankles, knees, hips, back, shoulder, neck, elbow or wrists when I am older, like so many before me.

 

[puunui]

Every time I get into a car or try to cross the street. Everytime I lay my head to go to sleep. Everytime I walk out my door. Everytime I trust a chair to support my weight. Everytime I start my lawnmower up. A decade ago in the military far too often. Get my drift yet?

No, not really.

 

[dancingalone]

"Martial dance". So the health tai chi people are "real" martial artists then?

Sure. If you take a martial art like tai chi or TKD, whatever your chosen of focus is, you are by definition also a martial artist.

My focus of my physical training is for mainly health now. To that end, I try to concentrate on correct form. I believe that correct form and correct principles will allow me to continue to train into my advanced years. I see some of my friends who continue to try to train like they did when they were younger and they as well as their students tend to get injured. I don't want that result, so I have been spending a lot of time going on correct form. I don't want to have pains in my ankles, knees, hips, back, shoulder, neck, elbow or wrists when I am older, like so many before me.

I'm a sticker for correct form too. Form = technique = efficiency = health/efficacy

 

[puunui]

I'm a sticker for correct form too. Form = technique = efficiency = health/efficacy

The question then becomes, what is "correct" form. For example, a lot of people feel that the infamous 45 degree roundhouse kick is "correct" form. Perhaps in some circumstances it is, but it has been my experience that too much of that increases the likelihood of knee troubles in the future, especially for older practitioners who are used to having that strong snap on the paddle with their 45. As you get older, that strong snap gets harder and harder to achieve, and the older practitioner, attempting to retain past glory of the loud paddle sound, tries harder and harder, which can and will result is hyperextension, or worse. So I studied roundhouse deeply to the point where I think I have the benefits of the roundhouse, without the possible negative side effects. Took about five hard years of video review, experimentation, feedback, asking questions, and tweeking until I reached a point where I feel like I have something I can still do when I'm 80+. But that required throwing out the 45 degree kick in favor of something else.

Did or doing or will do the same process for every other aspect of my martial arts.

 

[ATACX GYM]

The question then becomes, what is "correct" form. For example, a lot of people feel that the infamous 45 degree roundhouse kick is "correct" form. Perhaps in some circumstances it is, but it has been my experience that too much of that increases the likelihood of knee troubles in the future, especially for older practitioners who are used to having that strong snap on the paddle with their 45. As you get older, that strong snap gets harder and harder to achieve, and the older practitioner, attempting to retain past glory of the loud paddle sound, tries harder and harder, which can and will result is hyperextension, or worse. So I studied roundhouse deeply to the point where I think I have the benefits of the roundhouse, without the possible negative side effects. Took about five hard years of video review, experimentation, feedback, asking questions, and tweeking until I reached a point where I feel like I have something I can still do when I'm 80+. But that required throwing out the 45 degree kick in favor of something else.

Did or doing or will do the same process for every other aspect of my martial arts.

I like this post.Much respect to you,brother.

 

[Indie12]

Didn't we have this discussion a while back?

 

[Indie12]

Zooming through so I have to make this quick:


I've been in quite a few scuffles and used my TKD Kenpo and all the methods availabe in my ATACX GYM arsenal to deal with them.The stories are in other threads.


1) Most civilian martial artists train for the more primarily needs of the civilian.Most civilians don't engage in or expect to engage in life and death struggles,so training that reflects this reality is quite practical.However,those of us with a SD mandate and inclination understand that one must train to deal with say armed and multiple opponents,and the different environments require different tactics and tweaked training...but the superior athlete with the superior delivery system has the advantage every single time visavis the less rigorously trained.It's true that most of us don't start off with exceptional athletic ability,but that is not only not an excuse but to me the very mandated reason for us to develope ourselves physically as much as we can.Therefore it behooves us to train our athletic attributes to the peak of our ability regardless of the environment or reason we are training,as it does everything beneficial for us including literally expanding our lifespan.

Agree, however it's those certain 'times' when they may need too. Especially in the public service realm. And if you really wanted to get technical, the Military's hand2hand combat programs are geared more towards the use of weapons, then actually using hands and feet, which aren't use nearly as often as people think. Actually public service authorities are more often to engage in hand2hand then not.

2) Not all sports TKD guys keep their hands down.In point fighting,in pro tkd,in K-1,and other sport combat activities you keep your hands up or you'll get punched AND kicked in thee ole noggin.

I think it depends on which "sport MA" your speaking of. I've seen TKD guys with their hands up and k-1 and UFC with hands down.

3) I have never met a SD taekwondoin who doesn't keep his/her/their hands up,especially once the altercation begins.My uncle and grandmaster used to gently remind us to keep our hands up by whopping us with a kick,handstrike,or weapon to the cranium.That will definitely get you to keep your hands up.I have never met a SD or sport taekwondoin who can't punch with authority.Maybe not a KO shot every time,but when they hit you? You know you've been hit.And the more elite the TKD punching at you--like an Olympian--the harder they hit.We still train to induce "trembling shock" in every blow that we land.Hand,elbow,foot,knee,chair,head butt,whatever.

Agreed!

4) What happens if you're called upon to defend a friend,loved one,or innocent? What happens if you see someone undergoing say an asthma attack and their inhaler is say 3-400 meters away at their house or in their car? Doesn't happen much,but it HAS happened to me.Twice.A complete stranger's friend went into insulin shock once at the basketball court and a cousin of my friend's friend had an asthma attack.Both times their medikits were in their cars parked about 300 meters away.Both times I used my 46 second PR 400 meter sprinting speed to retrieve the items in need and all ended well.If I hadn't been training athletically? I couldn't've done that.

I've had to come to the aid or defense of a civilian (Public Servicemember) and provide Medical treatment (EMS). So I know what your staying!

Have you taken SD scenarios and formatted them into sports specific drills? I do it all the time.Knife disarms for instance.Set the clock for 4-3 minute rounds. Your student has 180 seconds to achieve 10 disarms,without getting killed or seriously stabbed.Punsihment calisthenics for each time the student "dies". Stop the clock with each successful disarm,and make the "knife attacker" do calisthenics for each time he/she/they are disamred.It's lotsa fun.It's harder than it sounds,lol.The first couple of days this? Your lone unarmed student is gettin the crapped stabbed out of him,lol.But by mid-week or the end of the week? They're getting better and by the end of week 2 they're all into it.It's an amazing turnaround...and here we have sports and SD seamlessly blended.

Disarming a gun or knife for Combat or SD purposes is a little different then Sport. 1) You only get one chance! 2) There are no redo's!

I have a gajillion drills like this.

But overall agreed!

 

[ETinCYQX]

Didn't we have this discussion a while back?

We have this discussion about every 2 days...