TKD and Everyone Else

[Daniel Sullivan]

Very superficial unfortunately. Frankly, a black tag should be the last thing a young student should be able to test for before they're fifteen or so. But as long as parents are willing to pony up 300-500 dollars for a blackbelt test for an eight year old, blackbelt munchkins will not go away. Incredibly, another federation actually has divisions for six and seven year old blackbelts. Hokey smokes!!

Daniel

 

[newGuy12]

TKD did have monstrous power in its kicks, and many schools still do, it just that, like Celtic Tiger said, a lot of owners are lawsuit-aware and don't want to risk what could happen if the TKD kicks were that practiced with that kind of power. Oh, and some never learned how to make their kicks that powerful, themselves.

Well, I have seen what I have seen, and yes, things have changed. I have heard talk -- that capitalism is superior to communism, and if you wish to have a Dojang you must make money. I can appreciate that. There must be a balance. It does not suit me, but I do not run the world. Who would practice so hard nowadays? I am older myself (I'm not bragging -- but I was once a good Student -- fast and strong -- not the best, but not an embarrassment to my School, either).

Things change. And then they change some more. Its not easy to build a good School, after all. You must get young people with good heart. They have to be able to understand eventually to give and take -- HARD at times, hard enough to feel this. They have to respect each other not to give injury. Then, they have to keep coming to practice, all the time, over and over, until they mature into good adult Students. This is not an overnight matter.

By the way, newguy12...Where have you been!? I haven't seen you posting in a good while! Maybe I have just been looking in the wrong places :lol:.

I took a break. I did not look at this board for some time. I myself can get involved in some personality clashes, and its best to just back off sometimes. I have been going to the weight lifting gymnasium as much as the TKD dojang. That is only exercise, not Art, not Discipline, but it is very enjoyable.

I sometimes despair that the Real TKD is dying off with the Old Masters, and it will be gone forever. I have seen these men myself. But, then I read these threads and know that others, some Instructors have great concern about this. The TKD bb Student does not give up. No. That is a very important part, to not give up.

TKD will be just fine. It will change again. Knowledge will be freed up and published. Students and Instructors will have a hand in reviving the old ways of training, even if it is not available to all (because of the fear of a lawsuit and so forth).

You know, you must find the kids who wish to really fight, not just competition. They want to learn to do self-defense. They appreciate the ways of just doing what the Teacher says to do, because they have respect and trust. They have to be inspired, so they have to see this BIG POWER. Why else would they commit? This is not usual in our culture.

There was a story once on this board, someone came to the Dojang and they ran their mouth, right? "Your Teacher is no good, I could beat him up." The Students then said to go ahead and try it.

Well, The Teacher gave the sweep and that was it, then! This is not so nice, this TKD. There comes a time that the students have to see this kind of thing -- BAM! They have to feel it themselves -- the Teacher gives it! BAM!!! How else can you fully appreciate this? By watching? No. Its not so easy, then. Not all young people are inspired to follow a harsh path.

 

[SageGhost83]

Well, I have seen what I have seen, and yes, things have changed. I have heard talk -- that capitalism is superior to communism, and if you wish to have a Dojang you must make money. I can appreciate that. There must be a balance. It does not suit me, but I do not run the world. Who would practice so hard nowadays? I am older myself (I'm not bragging -- but I was once a good Student -- fast and strong -- not the best, but not an embarrassment to my School, either).

Things change. And then they change some more. Its not easy to build a good School, after all. You must get young people with good heart. They have to be able to understand eventually to give and take -- HARD at times, hard enough to feel this. They have to respect each other not to give injury. Then, they have to keep coming to practice, all the time, over and over, until they mature into good adult Students. This is not an overnight matter.



I took a break. I did not look at this board for some time. I myself can get involved in some personality clashes, and its best to just back off sometimes. I have been going to the weight lifting gymnasium as much as the TKD dojang. That is only exercise, not Art, not Discipline, but it is very enjoyable.

I sometimes despair that the Real TKD is dying off with the Old Masters, and it will be gone forever. I have seen these men myself. But, then I read these threads and know that others, some Instructors have great concern about this. The TKD bb Student does not give up. No. That is a very important part, to not give up.

TKD will be just fine. It will change again. Knowledge will be freed up and published. Students and Instructors will have a hand in reviving the old ways of training, even if it is not available to all (because of the fear of a lawsuit and so forth).

You know, you must find the kids who wish to really fight, not just competition. They want to learn to do self-defense. They appreciate the ways of just doing what the Teacher says to do, because they have respect and trust. They have to be inspired, so they have to see this BIG POWER. Why else would they commit? This is not usual in our culture.

There was a story once on this board, someone came to the Dojang and they ran their mouth, right? "Your Teacher is no good, I could beat him up." The Students then said to go ahead and try it.

Well, The Teacher gave the sweep and that was it, then! This is not so nice, this TKD. There comes a time that the students have to see this kind of thing -- BAM! They have to feel it themselves -- the Teacher gives it! BAM!!! How else can you fully appreciate this? By watching? No. Its not so easy, then. Not all young people are inspired to follow a harsh path.

True words of wisdom spoken by an intelligent individual :asian:. I know what you mean about having to back away from the boards every now and then. I have done the same on many occasions, but my military obligations also pull me away from time to time . I agree with you that people must actually *see* and *feel* real TKD to gain an appreciation of what it is all about. As far as schools, there is a certain compromise that comes with living in a capitalist society, and I figure that the same applies for commercial schools. I have personally been against the idea of commercializing the martial arts, but hey, even that has its own benefits (such as raising awareness about martial arts in general), so there is good and bad to that, as well. I will always choose a garage dojo over a commercial school, but that is merely my own taste. The arts have not stopped evolving. They haven't always been this way and they will certainly be different in the future. My hope is that it is for the better.

 

[newGuy12]

The arts have not stopped evolving. They haven't always been this way and they will certainly be different in the future. My hope is that it is for the better.

The student who wants to know the TKD at depth will do what they have to do. Most likely they will try to go to England, or find some teacher near where they live. If they want it more than anything else, they will find it.

The others can practice superficially. This is not particular to TKD, or the martial arts after all. Many fields of study have enthusiasts with varying degrees of enthusiasm and commitment. Its the same with TKD.

How many people like computering, yet go their whole life using some Microsoft Windows OS, never really getting under the hood? Others will dive in head first. They want to CODE, they want to have CONTROL over their computing enviroment, and so on.

The same here.

Now, that being said, its important to remember that the voices we hear saying, "The self-defense ways of TKD must be taught -- the most precious parts of it are embedded in these forms." are not motivated by money. You cannot immediately gain more revenue by changing this curriculum in this way -- why? Because you must give the people what they want, to gain more enrollment.

So, these people who wish for more "dirty" (for a lack of better word) TKD, the "Dark Side" of TKD -- you know what I am trying to say -- they are ideologues. They wish only to promote the art as it was originally taught. Because their motivation is "higher" than to get money, they will have a good impact -- they will have some influence on the greater community. How exactly it takes hold is yet to be seen, but it will happen, the same as the Free Software Movement (free as in speech!) has influenced software -- people motivated by ideology rather than by money can have very powerful effect.

 

[newGuy12]

Nowadays, its different. Some new student in TKD may very well come to this message board, and read these posts.

OH!

What is this that we are missing in our school? What is that that is being taught by the teachers in England? How can we learn this?

Get it?

The cat is out of the bag now. Because of the internets.

 

[StuartA]

the "Dark Side" of TKD

LOL.. I like it.. once I was luke.. now Im Darth :bow:

 

[Errant108]

But it's not supposed to be. ROK Taekwondo by definition is not designed for a ring. Tournament Taekwondo by definition is not supposed to be street realistic. Self defense-oriented Taekwondo is another beast entirely. What many people seem to forget is that modern Taekwondo is composed of many different parts, depending on what you want. Don't like tournament fighting? Don't have to do it. Kukkiwon TKD is not just tournament competition, despite what the naysayers say.

Where can I find out about this entirely other beast of self-defense Kukkiwon TKD?

 

[terryl965]

Find a old school instructor that does ROK type training and there still are some and yes they are KKW certified.

 

[Errant108]

If it is not an official part of curriculum of the Kukkiwon, it's worthless.

 

[Kacey]

If it is not an official part of curriculum of the Kukkiwon, it's worthless.

Why? This is a serious question. There are plenty of MAs that contain useful techniques that are not "an official part of the curriculum of the Kukkiwon". So what makes anything else "worthless"?

 

[terryl965]

If it is not an official part of curriculum of the Kukkiwon, it's worthless.

Well then since the KKW really does not have a curricukum then they are worthless as well. See errant they have no preset standerds anymore andreally never did.

 

[Errant108]

The Kukkiwon does have a curriculum.

They have an official standard and an official curriculum. They always have.

They have their pumsae, and very precise instructions on how they are to be performed. They have their regulations for sparring. They have Instructors' Courses to certify & train you in their curriculum. You don't have to follow their curriculum, but that doesn't mean they don't have one.

And thus, what is not officially part of their curriculum is not officially Kukki Taekwondo.

So, again, I'd love to find out more about this Kukkiwon self-defense TKD.

 

[terryl965]

The Kukkiwon does have a curriculum.

They have an official standard and an official curriculum. They always have.

They have their pumsae, and very precise instructions on how they are to be performed. They have their regulations for sparring. They have Instructors' Courses to certify & train you in their curriculum. You don't have to follow their curriculum, but that doesn't mean they don't have one.

And thus, what is not officially part of their curriculum is not officially Kukki Taekwondo.

So, again, I'd love to find out more about this Kukkiwon self-defense TKD.

Errant please I have done the instructor course twice and have trained there as well. Sure do they have minimal standerds YES and they are minimal at best. They have no way of telling you me or anyone else if there KKW certificate are with qualift people. You know this and as well if you have been part of the KKW for any length you know they teach SD principle, here is a LINK to there own website showing some SD moves.

I know you know this but there it is for everybody else.

 

[newGuy12]

If it is not an official part of curriculum of the Kukkiwon, it's worthless.

Certainly I am misunderstanding something here. Surely we
don't expect everything of value to be specified by the
KKW. To say that they are the end-all of all worthy TKD,
this can't be so.

As far as I know, the KKW has *nothing* to say regarding
General Choi's forms. We know that these forms are very
beautiful and have strong fighting techniques in them.

 

[SageGhost83]

Nowadays, its different. Some new student in TKD may very well come to this message board, and read these posts.

OH!

What is this that we are missing in our school? What is that that is being taught by the teachers in England? How can we learn this?

Get it?

The cat is out of the bag now. Because of the internets.

And thank the stars for that! Now that the word is getting out, it will be far tougher for somebody to get over on people. Of course, it all depends on the depth of the student. Are they really serious about it or are they just doing it as a fun activity. The serious student will go elsewhere but the hobbyist won't care enough to do such a thing. So Mcdojangs will still have some business but it won't be with the lifers.

 

[YoungMan]

The Internet is indeed a double edged sword. It is very easy to get wrong information, because anyone can post. But at the same time it's also much easier to do research without having to drive everywhere and waste time and gas.
It becomes much easier to Google some Instructor's name and see what comes up rather than just take his word for it.

 

[Twin Fist]

If it is not an official part of curriculum of the Kukkiwon, it's worthless.

huh. ok

I am just gonna keep going and pretend i didnt read this...............

 

[Errant108]

Errant please I have done the instructor course twice and have trained there as well. Sure do they have minimal standerds YES and they are minimal at best. They have no way of telling you me or anyone else if there KKW certificate are with qualift people.

Which makes me wonder why anyone would associate themselves with this organization?

You know this and as well if you have been part of the KKW for any length you know they teach SD principle, here is a LINK to there own website showing some SD moves.

I know you know this but there it is for everybody else.

That's not self-defense. That's dead, static training that will get you killed. Without getting into the notion of step-sparring being next to worthless for alive combat, let's just take the bayonet defense that you offered. For starters, the concept of range is completely ignored. The defender would have virtually no chance of dealing with a bayonet attack at that range. He is far too close. Unless is THAT good, he wouldn't be able to tell where his attacker is going to stick that bayonet until it is far too late. Ignoring that, let's say he actually manages to get around his opponent and achieve the arm bar in shoulder 2. This is possibly the only good thing in this sequence, re: position and control, and even that is not great. Still, there are options from this position, and achieving the position itself is possible. However, our "Master", who has likely never drilled this technique in an alive manner, reliquishes control of his opponent to do what? DROP AN ELBOW TO THE SPINE. This technique has been proven time and time again to be a low percentage techinque for several reasons. One, you have to be able to generate sufficient penetrative force for it to work. In the photo of this technique, the Master is leaning over, and his hips are not noticably lower than before. There would not be enough force in that technique to stop an opponent. Secondly, you must hit an opponent at the correct spot in his spine in order to drop him. The likelihood of doing that against a live, resisting opponent decreases. Thus why this defense has been almost completely discarded in live competition (it is still completely legal in MMA competition).

Let's review the second issue with the elbow to the spine. After moving outside the attack and securing control of your attacker's arm AND WEAPON, why in Buddha's name would you release control of that weapon in order to perform a low percentage technique like a drop elbow? If you've got your opponent's arm locked, sweep his leg out and face plant him in the ground. From there, strip him of his weapon and either A) use his weapon to hold him there until back-up/police/authorities come to apprehend him, or B) battlefield; put a round in his skull and then turn his rifle on his squad mates. Look at it closely. You are using TWO arms to control his weapon. Almost every SD teacher I have had who has seen combat has said that this is the only practical way to go re: weapons defense. If, in this example, the Master removes his right arm in order drop that elbow strike, he is only controlling the weapon & his opponent with a left hand wrist grab. The second that right hand is removed, any pressure on the opponent's shoulder and elbow is instantly relieved, and the opponent can (and likely will) escape from the Master's hold, just by flowing with the new lack of resistance to his motion.

The second Bayonet gyorugi is slightly better, but includes no end game strategies.

Don't like my analysis of this example? Get StuartA to take a look at it.

If this is Kukki TKD self-defense, skip it and take up JKD or even Krav Maga.

If that is the Kukkiwon's standard of self-defense training, then the Kukkiwon is worthless, re: self-defense training.

This is my point.

If the Kukkiwon is the rank certification of Kukki Taekwondo, and what they offer is WORTHLESS as far as self-defense skills, turning around and saying that there is self-defense in Kukki Taekwondo, just not "OFFICIAL" self-defense is MEANINGLESS.

If there are individual masters out there who offer reliable, practical self-defense training under the banner of the Kukkiwon, then that's great. However, I am not going to recommend that anyone study Kukki Taekwondo for self-defense purposes just on the off-chance they MAY find that master.

Outliers do not define a system.

Where are all these great TKD masters with these comprehensive, capable combative systems?

Show me.

Seriously. I want to see it. I want to believe that TKD works.

If the above is a representation of TKD self-defense skills, then I feel completely justified in leaving Kukki TKD for good.

 

[Errant108]

Certainly I am misunderstanding something here. Surely we
don't expect everything of value to be specified by the
KKW. To say that they are the end-all of all worthy TKD,
this can't be so.

As far as I know, the KKW has *nothing* to say regarding
General Choi's forms. We know that these forms are very
beautiful and have strong fighting techniques in them.

Yeah, you misunderstood. My response was in reference to YoungMan's statements on Kukki Taekwondo's self-defense training.

 

[Errant108]

The Internet is indeed a double edged sword. It is very easy to get wrong information, because anyone can post. But at the same time it's also much easier to do research without having to drive everywhere and waste time and gas.
It becomes much easier to Google some Instructor's name and see what comes up rather than just take his word for it.

So you propose visiting every Kukki Taekwondo instructor everywhere in order to verify whether or not there is legitimate Kukki self-defense training?