TKD and Everyone Else

[Errant108]

huh. ok

I am just gonna keep going and pretend i didnt read this...............

LOL..I don't think you understood what I was saying.

 

[Twin Fist]

LOL. I don't think you understood what I was saying.

oh, ok

*phew*

cool

 

[Errant108]

oh, ok

*phew*

cool

No worries.

A lot of people get upset with what I have to say. I am blunt, but I am logical. I'm not going to be nice just to save people's feelings. But, if you actually take the time to read what I'm saying, I encourage logical, rational, introspective discussion on what TKD training is, what it was, and what it should be.

 

[terryl965]

Errant I do not buy into we must follow KKW standerds at all, so I guess we are basically on the same page my argument is they have a SD curriculum that has some, never said I foolowed it just that it was there, never said it was any good. I will sum it up like this I am KKW certified but I play by my rules and my GM rules.

 

[Errant108]

Errant I do not buy into we must follow KKW standerds at all, so I guess we are basically on the same page my argument is they have a SD curriculum that has some, never said I foolowed it just that it was there, never said it was any good. I will sum it up like this I am KKW certified but I play by my rules and my GM rules.

That's fine.

Just understand that when someone says, "I do Kukki TKD," ie. you, someone like me is completely justified in dismissing you as a viable instructor for self-defense training.

 

[exile]

Hey Errant—wait a sec.

If you look at Terry's posts, he's been in the forefront of TKD people calling for a return to street-effective methods and interpretations of TKD, of combat-realistic applications of TKD hyungs and all the rest. He's the last person to argue that the 'official KKW' line of SD has serious street relevance.

The thing is, not all of his students want to do that kind of TKD; some of them want to do WTF-style competitive sparring stuff, and his KKW cert is part of enabling them to qualify for WTF-sponsored events. As we've been saying on other threads, the KKW leans on its cozy relationship with the WTF so far as rank certification goes for tournament qualifying purposes. But Terry's long been a serious advocate of old-school, military-style hard TKD. I think you guys are on exactly the same page on this....

 

[Errant108]

The only thing I'm going by is commentary in this thread. Again, it doesn't matter what Terry says, or what you say, or what I say, or what YoungMan says.

The minute we rep Kukki TKD, we lose all credibility vis a vis self-defense.

 

[terryl965]

Everybody is entitle to there opinion and so is errant, sir I hope TKD old school lives past my life and my son's and forever. Exile thanks for the plug but as you know I really do not care what people say about me, those that have known me for years know exactly what I stand for and those other can have a piece of hunble pie while drinking a coke.

 

[terryl965]

That's fine.

Just understand that when someone says, "I do Kukki TKD," ie. you, someone like me is completely justified in dismissing you as a viable instructor for self-defense training.

Let me ask you these quesion what band of TKD do you do and how is that different from others. I believe this is a simple question so I will wait for your reply.

P.S. since you really do not know me then do not throw me in the dog pile I am more SD than you may think, as a matter of fact I have been envolved in SD my whole life since that is all my father did was teach it in the Marine Corp. for 38 years.

 

[Errant108]

Let me ask you these quesion what band of TKD do you do and how is that different from others. I believe this is a simple question so I will wait for your reply.

I don't do TKD anymore. Despite the few people trying to resurrect or save it, some of whom I respect more than you would ever believe, I just don't see the point. You will never save TKD. You may not realize it, but you're fighting the South Korean government. You will lose. You are destined to remain outliers.

P.S. since you really do not know me then do not throw me in the dog pile I am more SD than you may think, as a matter of fact I have been envolved in SD my whole life since that is all my father did was teach it in the Marine Corp. for 38 years.

I throw you in the dog pile you include yourself in.

If you say you teach Kukki TKD, there is nothing there to make me think you are teaching anything worthwhile.

This is simple logic.

 

[terryl965]

I don't do TKD anymore. Despite the few people trying to resurrect or save it, some of whom I respect more than you would ever believe, I just don't see the point. You will never save TKD. You may not realize it, but you're fighting the South Korean government. You will lose. You are destined to remain outliers.



I throw you in the dog pile you include yourself in.

If you say you teach Kukki TKD, there is nothing there to make me think you are teaching anything worthwhile.

This is simple logic.

Do you even remember what Kukkiwon TKD was before it became a sport by there government or are you just talking to talk. We are all trying to be civilized here. Did you ever train over sea? Or are you basing everything on what you learn here in the states from instructor that got there certificates while being on a plane?

 

[terryl965]

I would love to hear you tell people like Roy Kurban, Skipper Mullins and others that they are worthless and they are in that same dogpile since both have a KKW certificate.

Have a wonderful life.

 

[terryl965]

Tell me a little about your art Cheolryun Gwonbeop, what makes this the end all for SD principle. I like to learn new things.

 

[Errant108]

Do you even remember what Kukkiwon TKD was before it became a sport by there government or are you just talking to talk. We are all trying to be civilized here. Did you ever train over sea?

I've trained with people who trained directly under Hwang Gi, Song Deuksong, Chong Suhong. I've trained with Hee Il Cho and Philip Ameris. I've trained in TKD so old they still called it Korean Karate, and so new that I lost in gyorugi to the 3rd best in the US that year. What you're attempting here is a logical fallacy known as appeal to authority. It doesn't work on any level.

If you want to continue discussion with me, base it in logic. Not emotion.

I would love to hear you tell people like Roy Kurban, Skipper Mullins and others that they are worthless and they are in that same dogpile since both have a KKW certificate.

Your response is not logical.

There are many reputable fighters who have Kukkiwon grade.

The question is whether or not their Kukkiwon training is where they derive their self-defense curriculum from.

If Skipper Mullins tells me that what he teaches is Kukki Taegwondo, then it is completely logical for me to dismiss whatever he teachers as being worthless, since as we have seen, the SD curriculum of the Kukkiwon is largely worthless.

If Skipper Mullins tells me that he has a SD curriculum that he has developed through his years of competition and cross-training, he may be worth listening to.

In the former case, he attempts to use his non-Kukkiwon training to justify his Kukkiwon rank.

In the second, he does not.

Do you understand the difference?

Please base your response in logical discourse and not emotion.

Have a wonderful life.

I originally intended to, but I am afraid it is far too late for that.

Tell me a little about your art Cheolryun Gwonbeop, what makes this the end all for SD principle. I like to learn new things.

Red herring and borderline ad hom.

I'm more than willing to, but it is irrelevant to this conversation. Feel free to start a separate thread where you can call out my qualifications for discussing self-defense.

 

[newGuy12]

You will never save TKD. You may not realize it, but you're fighting the South Korean government. You will lose. You are destined to remain outliers.

Not so, I will not believe it. I have seen a few people make big changes in other areas. Its the same with the TKD. Don't doubt the power of committed people.

All it takes is for those who know to be accessible to those who wish to know. And this is already the case. So now it is only a matter of time. ALL of TKD will not be affected, but MUCH of it will. We are on a collision course with revival of self-defense in many Dojangs. The KKW (or anyone else) will not stop it, once some "critical mass" is realized.

 

[Errant108]

Not so, I will not believe it. I have seen a few people make big changes in other areas. Its the same with the TKD. Don't doubt the power of committed people.

All it takes is for those who know to be accessible to those who wish to know. And this is already the case. So now it is only a matter of time. ALL of TKD will not be affected, but MUCH of it will. We are on a collision course with revival of self-defense in many Dojangs. The KKW (or anyone else) will not stop it, once some "critical mass" is realized.

Good luck then. I do not believe you will ever reach that critical mass, but I wish you all the luck in the world.

 

[Twin Fist]

eh,

You guys all know I dont have much use for the KKW. or any large org. for that matter.

But i will give anyone the benefit of the doubt. They say they are teaching SD oriented TKD, I will believe them until I see for myself that they are not.

Plus, i figure it like this.

KKW TKD can be viable, SD wise, if taught that way.

WTF however......................

it is a fine line, but an important one I think.

 

[exile]

...There are many reputable fighters who have Kukkiwon grade.

The question is whether or not their Kukkiwon training is where they derive their self-defense curriculum from.

But that's just the point I was getting at earlier, E. Terry's SD curriculum has nothing at all to do with what's coming out, or what came out, of the KKW. The KKW part of his program is just about his sparring and forms competitors. The SD material is completely independent of that. With maybe a couple of exceptions in this discussion, no one is in disagreement on that general point. None of us who are currently talking believe that the KKW's genuine focus of interest is close-quarters self-defense, whatever pretenses they make to that effect.

There are institutional changes in the wind which are going to lead to a major split within TKD in the next few years, as the inevitable result of the KKW's attempt to drive the technical development of TKD in a very different direction from what most practitioners—who do not have either the capability for, or interest in, becoming athletic competitors in sport TKD—really want. It's going to happen and it's going to happen soon, just as the 'applied karate' movement associated with the bunkai-based view of karate forms and the British Combat Association approach to stress-testing MA effectiveness is the most rapidly growing component of karate in England. They're a bit ahead of us there but we'll catch up. Meanwhile, I think it's a major mistake to see schism and division where people are in fact actually of the same mind...

 

[Errant108]

eh,

You guys all know I dont have much use for the KKW. or any large org. for that matter.

But i will give anyone the benefit of the doubt. They say they are teaching SD oriented TKD, I will believe them until I see for myself that they are not.

Plus, i figure it like this.

KKW TKD can be viable, SD wise, if taught that way.

WTF however......................

it is a fine line, but an important one I think.

Unlike you, I don't give the benefit of the doubt.

I say, "Show me."

 

[newGuy12]

eh,

You guys all know I dont have much use for the KKW. or any large org. for that matter.

It seems to me that being affiliated with the KKW does not hold near as much importance as it once did. If a student in our school wishes for some KKW Dan rank, it can be arranged, but it is no longer "matter of course".

KKW TKD can be viable, SD wise, if taught that way.

Yes, of course -- but self defense is a matter of degree, let's remember. If someone only learns a few motions, but practices them for some time, that ALONE can give them SOME way to strike and block. Its just that these threads are concerned with schools (Instructors) who wish to OPTIMIZE that self-defense, instead of it being an after thought, you know.

Now, I want to say this -- above, I did not mean, "The KKW will be reformed! Individual Instructors will impose their will jointly, and the KKW' s mission will then change." No.

What WILL (and IS) happening is that changes are happening from the "bottom up" -- one school changes. Some other school changes. With the internet these changes spread faster.

Those who take a great interest in some Olympic style of freesparring will out of necessity pay good attention to all of what that means, but, this is only part of the community. I would hazard to guess that in the future the sway of the KukkiWon, or its importance will diminish.

Note that this is not meant to be some disrespect. Its just that things change. Institutions lose their prominence. Its just the way things are.