TKD and Everyone Else

[exile]

Almost all martial arts organizations would have given their left gonad and thrown their aging grandparents off the sled if they thought they could get the same results. What we are secretly ashamed of in ourselves we condem most loudly in others.

Yes, by gad. That has the ring of truth most certain.

 

[jks9199]

Yes, by gad. That has the ring of truth most certain.

I gotta agree...

I think that there is definitely a certain amount of sour grapes in putting down TKD -- and in fact, in putting down "commercial martial arts" in general. Most of us do martial arts 'cause it's something we love... wouldn't we love to make our living at it?

 

[StuartA]

Most of us do martial arts 'cause it's something we love... wouldn't we love to make our living at it?

You dont have to sell it down the river in a pretty boat to make a living out of it. Im a full time instructor and though Im never gonna be rich I make a living, as do many others. Not once have I ever entertained the notion of a TKD Birthday Party at my dojang!

Those guys doing that, arnt making a living, they are making a killing, at the arts & the students expense, both financially and morally!

 

[terryl965]

You dont have to sell it down the river in a pretty boat to make a living out of it. Im a full time instructor and though Im never gonna be rich I make a living, as do many others. Not once have I ever entertained the notion of a TKD Birthday Party at my dojang!

Those guys doing that, arnt making a living, they are making a killing, at the arts & the students expense, both financially and morally!

That is so true, around my neck of the woods every tom dick and harry has so many clubs and raking in the dough.

 

[Steel Tiger]

You dont have to sell it down the river in a pretty boat to make a living out of it. Im a full time instructor and though Im never gonna be rich I make a living, as do many others. Not once have I ever entertained the notion of a TKD Birthday Party at my dojang!

Those guys doing that, arnt making a living, they are making a killing, at the arts & the students expense, both financially and morally!

A TKD birthday party!!! :jaw-dropping:

I'm impressed someone can have gone so far in pursuit of the dollar as to disrespect their place of training like this.

But I'm not really one to talk. The gongfu world is full of similar things. I don't think anyone in TKD has ever passed off operatic training as a martial art, have they?

 

[jks9199]

You dont have to sell it down the river in a pretty boat to make a living out of it. Im a full time instructor and though Im never gonna be rich I make a living, as do many others. Not once have I ever entertained the notion of a TKD Birthday Party at my dojang!

Those guys doing that, arnt making a living, they are making a killing, at the arts & the students expense, both financially and morally!

Y'know... I probably oughta stop while I'm behind...:lol: but I didn't say and have never said that commercialism automatically equals some form of selling out. In fact, I was agreeing with and expanding on Tellner's point that some of the way people talk down TKD is a result of jealousy!

A TKD birthday party!!! :jaw-dropping:

I'm impressed someone can have gone so far in pursuit of the dollar as to disrespect their place of training like this.

But I'm not really one to talk. The gongfu world is full of similar things. I don't think anyone in TKD has ever passed off operatic training as a martial art, have they?

Yes, they happen. For some unknown amount of dollars, you too can have a private party for your kid in some dojos/dojangs... I don't know exactly what they're doing... I figure some MA-oriented games and maybe a practice session before the cake & ice cream.

 

[Errant108]

I'm going to disagree and actually say that TKD deserves the majority of the criticism that it gets.

We have a completely bull똥 history which is essentially a completely fabricated appeal to a non-existing authority...

We practically invented the term McDojo, with a majority of schools serving as little more a jungle gyms aimed at scamming parents out of money, while pretending to teach their brats how to defend themselves...

We have sparring that amounts to games of tag, or center around rulesets that have nothing to do with developing actual combative ability...

We have blatant corruption at the highest levels of the art, rather than examples to follow.

TKD deserves all of the criticism it gets, and those who deny it are essentially sticking their heads in the sand.

I say all this as a former TKD instructor, and Olympic rules competitor.

 

[terryl965]

I'm going to disagree and actually say that TKD deserves the majority of the criticism that it gets.

We have a completely bull똥 history which is essentially a completely fabricated appeal to a non-existing authority...

We practically invented the term McDojo, with a majority of schools serving as little more a jungle gyms aimed at scamming parents out of money, while pretending to teach their brats how to defend themselves...

We have sparring that amounts to games of tag, or center around rulesets that have nothing to do with developing actual combative ability...

We have blatant corruption at the highest levels of the art, rather than examples to follow.

TKD deserves all of the criticism it gets, and those who deny it are essentially sticking their heads in the sand.

I say all this as a former TKD instructor, and Olympic rules competitor.

Errant for the most part you are true TKD has been given a chance to grow and we-they-us have blown it. But with thatsaid there are still schools that try to do the right thing by TKD and we are just overwelmed by so many people trying to fleece the flock. I myself see a new way of Traditional TKD and it will be here soon enough and it will back the combat essence to the art.

I know I live in a dream world but one can see the writing on the wall.

 

[Errant108]

But with thatsaid there are still schools that try to do the right thing by TKD and we are just overwelmed by so many people trying to fleece the flock. I myself see a new way of Traditional TKD and it will be here soon enough and it will back the combat essence to the art.

I know I live in a dream world but one can see the writing on the wall.

Everyone's always will to say "my school's not like that". If that's the case, why does the majority opinion exist?

Until the change is visible to the vast majority of the martial arts world, it's not really going to matter. The majority opinion of TKD will be the accurate one, and the few outlying schools that differ will be largely irrelevant.

 

[terryl965]

Everyone's always will to say "my school's not like that". If that's the case, why does the majority opinion exist?

Until the change is visible to the vast majority of the martial arts world, it's not really going to matter. The majority opinion of TKD will be the accurate one, and the few outlying schools that differ will be largely irrelevant.

I would have to dis-agree, change can happen with a few and those few will always be seperated even in most circles

 

[StuartA]

I'm going to disagree and actually say that TKD deserves the majority of the criticism that it gets.

Hello my friend.. I hope all is well with you.

You & I, I feel, are actually in agreement. The key word here is majority, and the missing words are of TKD schools.

A school of TKd isnt TKD its a school that professes to teaching it.. if that teaching is incorrect or lacking, it doesnt matter to the general public, because tehy dont know.

However, you, I and a fair few others know different!

Stuart

 

[theletch1]

Hello my friend.. I hope all is well with you.

You & I, I feel, are actually in agreement. The key word here is majority, and the missing words are of TKD schools.

A school of TKd isnt TKD its a school that professes to teaching it.. if that teaching is incorrect or lacking, it doesnt matter to the general public, because tehy dont know.

However, you, I and a fair few others know different!

Stuart

Before joining up here at MT I was one of the general public that had a very dim view of TKD. After years of posting and interacting with TKD practitioners here I've come to understand what it is that you're talking about in the section of your post that I bolded. I've come to realize over time that every art is like that, though. I'm an aikido-ka and my art gets a lot of flack for being too soft or not effective for SD. The same argument that you use for TKD fits for aikido...and most other arts for that matter. Good post.

 

[StuartA]

Before joining up here at MT I was one of the general public that had a very dim view of TKD. After years of posting and interacting with TKD practitioners here I've come to understand what it is that you're talking about in the section of your post that I bolded. I've come to realize over time that every art is like that, though. I'm an aikido-ka and my art gets a lot of flack for being too soft or not effective for SD. The same argument that you use for TKD fits for aikido...and most other arts for that matter. Good post.

Aikido eh! Tell that to the Tokyo police (Angry White Pyjamas anyone). Most arts are missunderstood by those who havnt researched them to a decent degree... even those that do them.

Unfortunatly it is human nature to judge a book by its cover (Ive experieneced this literally lol).. sadly, TKD has a lot more books, with a lot more dodgy covers whose content is just as bad.

People see what they want to see or what they first stumble upon, unfortunatly, as I said in a previous post, TKD offers much more of 'what is not so good about TKD' to the public (which includes other MA) and thus it (and us) gets tarnished as such.

So is the way of things!

Stuart

 

[FieldDiscipline]

Well said Stuart.

 

[tellner]

One of the problems is that as a relatively new martial art "Real TKD" is a moving target.

Fifty years ago "Real TKD" was Japanese Karate with a sprinkling of Chinese martial arts. Sometimes it was done by people in martial arts schools. Sometimes it was done by soldiers. Then it was like Karate but with high kicking and de-emphasized punching to differentiate it from the Japanese product. Then it was a very specific kicking game done as an Olympic sport and a form of unlicensed daycare for children. Then it was a serious street-effective martial art with punching, kicking, grappling, weapons defense and everything else that a person could want. At various times throughout it was a propaganda arm of the Korean government designed to promote the idea of Korean supremacy and manliness to a world which considered them third or at best second rate.

It all depends on who you ask and what they want TKD to be. Since what succeeds survives the kid's activity and exclusive sport lead the pack. That's where the money and the cameras are. So that's what most Tae Kwon Do is at the moment.

Well, Korea is a much richer country and more respected on the world stage. So the government doesn't need to tell as many stories about the ROK Marines and the Unmatched Studliness of The New Korea. MMA is more exciting and looks less contrived. And there's always the homoerotic appeal of muscular men in top physical shape beating the crap out of each other while wearing Speedos, so the sports angle is on the wane

Tae Kwon Do will just have to reinvent itself. This will mean a splintering and recombining of organizations and some serious changes in curriculum as instructors and students figure out what they are looking for and how to achieve it. There will be several new versions of "Real TKD" each absolutely convinced that it is the only True Art.

This will make it just the same as every other martial art in just about every time and place.

 

[tellner]

Aikido eh! Tell that to the Tokyo police (Angry White Pyjamas anyone). Most arts are missunderstood by those who havnt researched them to a decent degree... even those that do them.

It was a good book and offered some serious insights into Aikido and the people who do it. The thing to remember is that a martial art is a vehicle for a lot of things. The Uchi Deshi program the author joined worked for the police trainees. But it was more the training method than the curriculum. They got used to being injured and not giving a damn. They habitually trained to exhaustion and structural failure. They learned to obey orders unquestioningly and unhesitatingly. They learned to take abuse stoically. The instructors created a group identity and feelings of superiority to the common herd while beating certain sorts of personal identity out of them. In other words, it was a lot like WWII era Japanese military training.

They could have been learning Aikido or Shooto or Taiko drumming or Needlepoint under that regime. It would have had exactly the same effect.

It's just like TKD. The Fluffy Bunny variety of Aikido, the extreme nationalism heavy Omoto-kyo cultish Aikido, the police version, the self defense oriented version and the Confucian advance-through-each-level version are all Aikido and even represent various stages of the founder's personal development. Which one is real? That's up to the school and the individual practitioner. But if one group shouts loudest and makes it the normal normative version that will be the "Real" Aikido or Tae Kwon Do.

 

[SageGhost83]

There will be several new versions of "Real TKD" each absolutely convinced that it is the only True Art.

Which is why I think that it is inevitable that, at some point, TKD is going to return to the Kwan era or a reasonable facsimile thereof. I also think that it will be for the better.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I have to admit you nailed that one on the head. In a battle of most abused Taiji beats TKD. How can you POSSIBLY defend yourself moving 0.0008 miles an hour? :lol:

This is EXACTLY what I LIKE people fo believe :EG:

 

[StuartA]

There will be several new versions of "Real TKD" each absolutely convinced that it is the only True Art.

Isnt that what the three ITFs say now!!!

Personally, I dont care whose is the realist.. as long as it works, I leave the one true art to the monks!

Stuart

 

[neoinarien]

The fact that people care enough about it to bash it so much is a sure sign that it is a very good style. Every major style goes through this - Karate had its moments (and arguably still does), JKD drew the ire of many a classical purist, and even MMA and BJJ have detractors by the boatload. You see, the reason why people go out of their way to insult TKD, or any style for that matter, is because they are insecure in their own art and deep down inside they feel like they must come over to another art, but they live in denial and react by insulting. It happens across the board, even Taekwondoin engage in this behavior towards other styles (*cough* Muay Thai *cough* *cough*). Don't worry about what "everybody else" says about your style. The only thing that matters is what you say about your style. If you are truly secure in what you do, then you won't care about what everyone else is doing, well, at least on that one level - you kinda have to keep an eye on them just in case you get to spar with them :wink2:. TKD and Everyone Else? You could just as easily substitue TKD for any style and the logic would still hold true. TKD just happens to be one of the most popular styles today so its criticisms will stick out far more than the criticisms of the other styles. Trust me - I have done Shotokan for 4 years and to this day people still tell me how impractical it is and how stiff and rigid it is. The funny thing is that they have never trained in it themselves, and if they had trained in it then they would realize that the stiffness is only at the beginner level and that the style loosens up at the higher levels.

Sounds like relativism.

That's walking down a dangerous road to say that, 'if you critique my style you must be insecure in your own.'