BJJ vs TKD...yep, let's kick the dead horse

[Daniel Sullivan]

Great googly moogly!! I just read this entire thread and all I can say is shoot the horse again, because it sure aint dead.

Seriously: I have read some seriously erroneous comments made on this thread, and by people that I would not have expected them from. Things like, "a three year old can take anyone down" or joint locks and choke holds being bad. And I'm not even going to address the multiple infractions of the "90% of all fights go to the ground" comment by multiple people (inaccurate at best). I'm not picking on anyone here, so to whoever made those statements (I don't honestly remember, as this thread has over nintey posts), my apologies if it comes across as picking on you specifically.

Then there was name calling and insults.

Why such animosity when takewondoists (Kukkiwon anyway) and Brazillan Jiu Jitsu practitioners both have an equal problem: say "WTF" or "BJJ" to a most people and strking art or grappling art is not what they will think you're driving at.

There's quite a bit that practitioners of both arts can learn from eachother, as there isn't really a whole lot of overlap between modern Taekwondo and Brazillian Jiujitsu. And regarding taekwondo, there are very few traditional schools as compared to the number of modern and/or sport schools, so if your traditional TKD school (which I'd probably be in heaven training at) teaches SD oriented grappling, then guess what? You're in the minority (sadly).

I seldom read a thread on this site that leaves a bad taste in my mouth, but this one is one of the few. And meaning no disrespect to the OP. Yes, some very insightful statements were made, particularly when the thread shifted to history, but in terms of talking about the content of both arts, this has been pretty much a 'mine is better than yours' thread from my perspective.

My apologies. Rant ended.

Daniel

 

[BrandonLucas]

Great googly moogly!! I just read this entire thread and all I can say is shoot the horse again, because it sure aint dead.

Seriously: I have read some seriously erroneous comments made on this thread, and by people that I would not have expected them from. Things like, "a three year old can take anyone down" or joint locks and choke holds being bad. And I'm not even going to address the multiple infractions of the "90% of all fights go to the ground" comment by multiple people (inaccurate at best). I'm not picking on anyone here, so to whoever made those statements (I don't honestly remember, as this thread has over nintey posts), my apologies if it comes across as picking on you specifically.

Then there was name calling and insults.

Why such animosity when takewondoists (Kukkiwon anyway) and Brazillan Jiu Jitsu practitioners both have an equal problem: say "WTF" or "BJJ" to a most people and strking art or grappling art is not what they will think you're driving at.

There's quite a bit that practitioners of both arts can learn from eachother, as there isn't really a whole lot of overlap between modern Taekwondo and Brazillian Jiujitsu. And regarding taekwondo, there are very few traditional schools as compared to the number of modern and/or sport schools, so if your traditional TKD school (which I'd probably be in heaven training at) teaches SD oriented grappling, then guess what? You're in the minority (sadly).

I seldom read a thread on this site that leaves a bad taste in my mouth, but this one is one of the few. And meaning no disrespect to the OP. Yes, some very insightful statements were made, particularly when the thread shifted to history, but in terms of talking about the content of both arts, this has been pretty much a 'mine is better than yours' thread from my perspective.

My apologies. Rant ended.

Daniel

No disrepect taken....

I started this thread because the topic was starting to derail another thread. Honestly, I didn't think it would go as far as what it has.

I didn't intend on starting a "my art is better than your art" thing, and I still dont' think that's entirely what happened. I do agree that things seemed to get a little out of hand, though.

I still stand by what I said in my OP...I think that if someone were to study both arts, they would compliment eachother nicely, regardless of the apparent SD quality of either. I also think that the art someone studies depends on what they are comfortable studying...are they more comfortable striking or rolling? Whichever a person is more comfortable with should be the primary art, and the other would be the crosstrained art...to fill in the gaps.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I still stand by what I said in my OP...I think that if someone were to study both arts, they would compliment eachother nicely, regardless of the apparent SD quality of either. I also think that the art someone studies depends on what they are comfortable studying...are they more comfortable striking or rolling? Whichever a person is more comfortable with should be the primary art, and the other would be the crosstrained art...to fill in the gaps.

I would definitely agree with that.

Daniel

 

[Xue Sheng]

I still stand by what I said in my OP...I think that if someone were to study both arts, they would compliment eachother nicely, regardless of the apparent SD quality of either. I also think that the art someone studies depends on what they are comfortable studying...are they more comfortable striking or rolling? Whichever a person is more comfortable with should be the primary art, and the other would be the crosstrained art...to fill in the gaps.

I would agree with that as well.

Heck I have thought for sometime now that Wing Chun and Judo would be a good blend.

 

[Tez3]

I don't practice Judo myself, and am unfamilier with its origins. As I previously stated, I'm not really trying to argue this point at all...I'm just asking for facts....which you have provided, and I appreciate that.

I guess maybe the question I should be asking is exactly how is BJJ not reasonable for SD? I don't care if everyone and their grandmother that has competed in the UFC uses it, and since UFC is a sport now, what they do isn't necessarily SD...I want to know why BJJ isn't good to use in an SD situation. And really, I don't think someone who has no training in the art can answer that question.

If someone who has trained in BJJ comes to this thread and says, "Yes, I know that BJJ doesn't have reasonable SD qualities, and I only train in it for fitness and sport," then I'll be more apt to believe that. Either that, or someone who has had to deal with a BJJ practitioner in an SD situation, whether simulated or real.

It's the same way that I can say that sport TKD doesn't help anyone in SD situations...I've "scrapped" (friendly fighting, not life threatening) with 2 or 3 sport TKD guys...and when they were forced to keep their hands up, their entire arsenal went away. As a matter of fact, at least one of those "matches" with them went to the ground...I was able to control what happend as I have some experience in highschool wrestling.

But I can also tell you that I've "scrapped" with a BJJ guy before...and while he didn't completely dominate me, he knew how to control the fight by taking it to the ground. I sprawled and did the standard take down defense, but the guy knew what he was doing, and was faster than me, so he was able to take me down...but the thing is, once we got to the ground, we didn't just stay there like you see in the UFC....he quickly tried for a sidechoke and then an armbar...I got out of both fairly quickly, and the fight went back up to our feet.

It was pretty much a progression of taking me down, trying subs, and when he couldn't apply any subs, he just settled on wearing me out....and sure, you can sit there and argue all day long that if I had buddies, then he would have been "in trouble"...but I didn't have buddies with me, and I'm quite sure if I had, he would have handled the fight differently.

All I'm saying is don't count something out until you've experienced it.

NO NO NO!! The UFC is a company like Microsoft, Ford and Burger King etc! It's a business not a sport, it has stockholders,owners, directors that sort of thing. Mixed Martial Arts is the sport.

 

[Twin Fist]

Oh, lighten up Francis............

KIDDING
LOL

Great googly moogly!! I just read this entire thread and all I can say is shoot the horse again, because it sure aint dead.

Seriously: I have read some seriously erroneous comments made on this thread, and by people that I would not have expected them from. Things like, "a three year old can take anyone down" or joint locks and choke holds being bad. And I'm not even going to address the multiple infractions of the "90% of all fights go to the ground" comment by multiple people (inaccurate at best). I'm not picking on anyone here, so to whoever made those statements (I don't honestly remember, as this thread has over nintey posts), my apologies if it comes across as picking on you specifically.

Then there was name calling and insults.

Why such animosity when takewondoists (Kukkiwon anyway) and Brazillan Jiu Jitsu practitioners both have an equal problem: say "WTF" or "BJJ" to a most people and strking art or grappling art is not what they will think you're driving at.

There's quite a bit that practitioners of both arts can learn from eachother, as there isn't really a whole lot of overlap between modern Taekwondo and Brazillian Jiujitsu. And regarding taekwondo, there are very few traditional schools as compared to the number of modern and/or sport schools, so if your traditional TKD school (which I'd probably be in heaven training at) teaches SD oriented grappling, then guess what? You're in the minority (sadly).

I seldom read a thread on this site that leaves a bad taste in my mouth, but this one is one of the few. And meaning no disrespect to the OP. Yes, some very insightful statements were made, particularly when the thread shifted to history, but in terms of talking about the content of both arts, this has been pretty much a 'mine is better than yours' thread from my perspective.

My apologies. Rant ended.

Daniel

 

[Tez3]

Of course a three year old can take a man down!! I've seen it! the best child for this technique should be head height to the uke's lower torso , the child stands face to face with uke several feet away, child takes a good run at uke getting a fast turn of speed and clearly seeing no need to stop once his head connects to uke! damn good technique takes a man down everytime, uke's female companions need to be revived asap though as possibly one could collapse from raucous laughter! Oh and as an afterthought, an ice pack please for the uke.

 

[Marginal]

Of course a three year old can take a man down!! I've seen it! the best child for this technique should be head height to the uke's lower torso , the child stands face to face with uke several feet away, child takes a good run at uke getting a fast turn of speed and clearly seeing no need to stop once his head connects to uke! damn good technique takes a man down everytime, uke's female companions need to be revived asap though as possibly one could collapse from raucous laughter! Oh and as an afterthought, an ice pack please for the uke.

Heck, I watched my 45lb dog throw my dad once. She liked to walk backwards and forwards 'cause it tended to make her leash pop off after a while. One time she backs right up into my dad's shin, then shoots forward, and my dad looked like he'd just been hit by a one arm shoulder throw. He went straight head over heels, and landed flat on his back.

 

[bigfootsquatch]

"Jigoro Kano was the founder of Judo, however, Judo is simply a style of Jiu-jitsu and not a separate martial art. Kano was not the first to use the name Judo, the Jiu-jitsu schools he studied at, which would be the source of much of his Judo's techniques had used the phrase before he made it famous in the late 1800's. "


www.jiu-jitsu.net

Its all over the site that you quoted. Guess googling an art you know nothing about doesnt work very well.

This may have already been addressed, but Judo is not a style of jiu jitsu/jujutsu. It is a combination of the various schools of japanese jj. For instance, throwing techniques are from the Kito JJ, and grappling and striking from Tenshin Shin'yo. There are other schools of jujutsu that were also combined to form Judo. It should also be said that most traditional japanese JJ schools did not practice randori, but relied on kata. Kano not only combined his knowledge of the various jujutsu styles he studied, but he also revolutionized the training approach, and many japanese jujutsu schools had trouble keeping their students.

So it is not really fair to say that judo is a style of jujutsu. It is more like an evolution of it(not saying it is better). My source is from Kodokan Judo by Jigoro Kano, so maybe that help clears up any confusion.

 

[jarrod]

i don't think it's derogatory towards judo to refer to it as a style of jujitsu. it was perceived as such in it's early days, with it being referred to both as kodokan jujitsu & kodokan judo. it was inargueably very innovative, in either case, & i think that if it was a style of jujitsu in the past it can't be considered one now with the immense emphasis placed on the sporting aspect of it.

jf

 

[Marginal]

i don't think it's derogatory towards judo to refer to it as a style of jujitsu. it was perceived as such in it's early days, with it being referred to both as kodokan jujitsu & kodokan judo. it was inargueably very innovative, in either case, & i think that if it was a style of jujitsu in the past it can't be considered one now with the immense emphasis placed on the sporting aspect of it.

It's worth saying that a MA with a sporting focus isn't necessarily bad. It all depends on the rule set, and how far that rule set varies from effective application. Boxing's a sport, but it's still effective as self defense for example. MT's very much a ring sport as well. The two don't have to be mutually exclusive.

The whole reason anyone practicing BJJ would want to seperate themselves from Judo is because of the mindset early UFC's generated. "If it doesn't work in the octagon right away, it sucks!" Since Judo didn't fare all that well in early MMA, it clearly was yet another horrible TMA from which nothing good has ever come. (Small wonder not everyone thinks highly of the core art responsible for generating that particular loudmouth mindset.) Not sure why tying it to JJ somehow makes it better. Kata practice = "That art is dirt horrible!!!" in the same circles.

 

[seasoned]

May the best man “person” win. I have seen a lot of turnovers in my day, and the end result is, that the better person wins every time. It is not how much you know, but how much you can take. Heck, I’ve seen new students come into MA that were down right dangerous, every art has them.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Oh, lighten up Francis............

KIDDING
LOL

Nobody calls me that! Everybody calls me psycho!

Dan

 

[BrandonLucas]

NO NO NO!! The UFC is a company like Microsoft, Ford and Burger King etc! It's a business not a sport, it has stockholders,owners, directors that sort of thing. Mixed Martial Arts is the sport.

I understand that UFC is a business, but they are, in my opinion, the company responsible for making Mixed Martial Arts a sport...and, also in my opinion, I don't consider Mixed Martial Arts a sport in its entirety...

I was trying to convey this message in a thread in the general martial arts forum, but I don't think I was saying things clearly...

The UFC is the one who put the rules on the fighters, who just happened to train in multiple martial arts at the time. The fighters started training in multiple martial arts as it was a necessity to beat other fighters with a more complete fighting style, i.e. a mixture of striking and grappling.

After the UFC (as well as other orgs...just using UFC as it is the most popular) started creating rules the fighters had to abide by, the style of training changed to accomodate the rules, thus MMA training became sport-oriented.

Whether or not the ground was cushioned or not in the cage, the fact still remained that grappling continued to give strikers from all MA's a hard time. And the strikers from the early UFC's were far more SD oriented than the strikers are in today's UFC.

That's why I am referring to UFC as a sport...because, to me, mixing martial arts, or crosstraining martial arts, shouldn't be considered only in the interest of sport...it's a great idea for SD as well. UFC "sported up" the mixing of martial arts, making the training shift in regards to what strikes were and were not allowed. So now, you may have the new MMA guys that train for UFC that are not getting the SD training, as in they aren't practicing small joint locks and puches to the back of the head and spine area.

And really, it's not entirely the UFC's fault...they were forced to change the rules because of the seperate states' boxing comission's rules...if the UFC was going to continue, it had to adapt...which wasn't a bad thing at all, IMO.

That's why I am referring to UFC the way that I am..and I mean no disrepect by this at all...but the act of mixing martial arts is not a sport...not until they step into that Octagon or ring or whatever and are made to fight by a certain ruleset.

 

[Tez3]

I understand that UFC is a business, but they are, in my opinion, the company responsible for making Mixed Martial Arts a sport...and, also in my opinion, I don't consider Mixed Martial Arts a sport in its entirety...

I was trying to convey this message in a thread in the general martial arts forum, but I don't think I was saying things clearly...

The UFC is the one who put the rules on the fighters, who just happened to train in multiple martial arts at the time. The fighters started training in multiple martial arts as it was a necessity to beat other fighters with a more complete fighting style, i.e. a mixture of striking and grappling.

After the UFC (as well as other orgs...just using UFC as it is the most popular) started creating rules the fighters had to abide by, the style of training changed to accomodate the rules, thus MMA training became sport-oriented.

Whether or not the ground was cushioned or not in the cage, the fact still remained that grappling continued to give strikers from all MA's a hard time. And the strikers from the early UFC's were far more SD oriented than the strikers are in today's UFC.

That's why I am referring to UFC as a sport...because, to me, mixing martial arts, or crosstraining martial arts, shouldn't be considered only in the interest of sport...it's a great idea for SD as well. UFC "sported up" the mixing of martial arts, making the training shift in regards to what strikes were and were not allowed. So now, you may have the new MMA guys that train for UFC that are not getting the SD training, as in they aren't practicing small joint locks and puches to the back of the head and spine area.

And really, it's not entirely the UFC's fault...they were forced to change the rules because of the seperate states' boxing comission's rules...if the UFC was going to continue, it had to adapt...which wasn't a bad thing at all, IMO.

That's why I am referring to UFC the way that I am..and I mean no disrepect by this at all...but the act of mixing martial arts is not a sport...not until they step into that Octagon or ring or whatever and are made to fight by a certain ruleset.

This refers to America, in the UK and Europe the UFC didn't bring it here other promotions did. We've been more influenced by Pride and the other Japanese shows than the Americans. The UFC is only now starting to take off here with Mike Bisping, up until then Cage Rage, Cagewarriors and Ultimate Combat were more important. Cage Rage still pulls in crowds larger than the UK UFC.
The UFC hasn't set the rules here, we do. We are also probably more grounded in TMAs than the States too. We haven't evolved from the UFC model which is why perhaps we haven't developed the same way.

 

[BrandonLucas]

This refers to America, in the UK and Europe the UFC didn't bring it here other promotions did. We've been more influenced by Pride and the other Japanese shows than the Americans. The UFC is only now starting to take off here with Mike Bisping, up until then Cage Rage, Cagewarriors and Ultimate Combat were more important. Cage Rage still pulls in crowds larger than the UK UFC.
The UFC hasn't set the rules here, we do. We are also probably more grounded in TMAs than the States too. We haven't evolved from the UFC model which is why perhaps we haven't developed the same way.

That would make sense, especially with what you're saying about the TMA's...you're closer to the east where most of the TMA's were created than we are...so we get a slightly filtered version of things....

Also, our way of living here is different than it is over there, which probably contributes to a great many differences that we're seeing. I don't think that there was anything around from other countries at the time when UFC first came out in the 90's with UFC 1, though...that's why I attribute the changes mostly to the UFC and not so much other fighting orgs of the same type.

 

[Xue Sheng]

IThe UFC is the one who put the rules on the fighters, who just happened to train in multiple martial arts at the time. The fighters started training in multiple martial arts as it was a necessity to beat other fighters with a more complete fighting style, i.e. a mixture of striking and grappling.

After the UFC (as well as other orgs...just using UFC as it is the most popular) started creating rules the fighters had to abide by, the style of training changed to accomodate the rules, thus MMA training became sport-oriented.

Interesting, and I had not thought of this before in association with MMA but Sanda (Sanshou) has 2 distinct branches that do look pretty different in training and application. The first was Military/Police Sanda that later became sport Sanda. Would Pre UFC be all that different than post UFC MMA?

This refers to America, in the UK and Europe the UFC didn't bring it here other promotions did. We've been more influenced by Pride and the other Japanese shows than the Americans. The UFC is only now starting to take off here with Mike Bisping, up until then Cage Rage, Cagewarriors and Ultimate Combat were more important. Cage Rage still pulls in crowds larger than the UK UFC.
The UFC hasn't set the rules here, we do. We are also probably more grounded in TMAs than the States too. We haven't evolved from the UFC model which is why perhaps we haven't developed the same way.

Similar question, did MMA change as the ruling organizations appeared in England?

 

[Tez3]

Interesting, and I had not thought of this before in association with MMA but Sanda (Sanshou) has 2 distinct branches that do look pretty different in training and application. The first was Military/Police Sanda that later became sport Sanda. Would Pre UFC be all that different than post UFC MMA?



Similar question, did MMA change as the ruling organizations appeared in England?

:lfao:


What ruling organisations? We have absolutely none at all!!

 

[Tez3]

There's not that many of us, fighters or promotions so we generally agree on what rules we want to use, it does vary between promotions though. Fighters will decide which shows they want to fight on. we have a couple of outstanding referees and they tend to lead the way on which rules work and which don't, fighter safety is the first consideration, 'entertainment' value second. It's more done by consensus, if the fighters and coaches don't like the rules they won't fight on the show.
We are all agreed on a few things though like no children fighting ( and then they are junior bouts when they do start at approx 16 though we've had 14 and 15 yr olds), the three main rule sets, amateur, semi pro and pro.

 

[BrandonLucas]

Interesting, and I had not thought of this before in association with MMA but Sanda (Sanshou) has 2 distinct branches that do look pretty different in training and application. The first was Military/Police Sanda that later became sport Sanda. Would Pre UFC be all that different than post UFC MMA?



Similar question, did MMA change as the ruling organizations appeared in England?

From watching the first few UFC's and similar fighting competitions of their kind, I would say yes.

Fighters today are far more well-rounded than they were 10 - 15 years ago, but on the other side of the coin, they have far more rules and limitations in place in the tournements now than they did before.

In fact, I can list all the rules from the first UFC's off the top of my head:

1. No eye gouging
2. No fish hooking
3. No small joint locks
4. No groin shots
5. No biting
6. No weapons

That was it, if I'm not mistaken. I couldn't quote 1/4 of the rules that are in place now.

If you take that into consideration, it would make sense that if your goal was to compete and do well in the UFC or similar orgs, then you would want to train within the ruleset.

Not only that, but the in the first UFC's, the tournement was single-elimination style. Fighters had to fight multiple times, and there were no weight classes to speak of. It was really the closest thing to real fighting as one could get without really fighting.

It's kind of a paradoxical situation...the fighters from the first UFC's (I'm using this term as a generic org) were mostly trained in one core art. They entered into a tournement with virtually no rules (I wouldn't count what I listed above as "rules" of any kind, really). We didn't really see any of these fighters use training from multiple martial arts to their advantage, but they didn't have anything limiting their use of most techniques from any art.

The fighters now are very well versed in multiple martial arts, and train specifically for the fights, but have many limitations placed on them.

And really, the training is the biggest factor...as I was typing, I realized what the key is here between the 2 generations of fighters...the fighters from the first UFC's didn't train specifically for their slotted fight, forsaking all other aspects of their personal lives to train...it wasn't their job. The fighters now are mostly fighting as their sole means of income, or training to fight for that reason, so they have the opportunity to dedicate far more of their time for training. As far as the fighters who haven't achieved a large enough bank to only train all day every day, the UFC has provided a goal for them to train harder for than the previous UFC's did...the first UFC's were just tournements with 1 cash prize at the end for 1 winner....the UFC now (as well as the other orgs out there) treat it more like boxing, where each fighter earns a purse, win or lose.

I think that coupled with the ruleset could be the difference.