This place has become a flame factory

[Lord-Humongous]

It's like the Ninjitsu forum on another board, LOL. It amazes me how people can become so preoccupied with details about who said what 50 years ago. Shouldn't we focus on training? Martial arts aren't about petty arguments that have no bearing on where we are today.

 

[dancingalone]

I like balance. It's true that things have tilted towards the historical side, but that is what people are discussing right now.

If you prefer another topic, start one. Chances are that someone else will join in given that the TKD is one of the most popular here at MT. I would if it is something that interests me and I know something about it.

 

[terryl965]

It is the way of a TKD warrior to always be right no-matter what.:asian:

 

[chrispillertkd]

Oh, it's not that bad. I don't think, anyway.

I like the historical aspect of things but since there's really not many published works that include verifiable sources most of the stuff posted on this board (and others) is hearsay. For me it's not so much a matter of arguing about who said what 50 years ago so much as can the people making the claims offer any evidence for what they say. If so, that's awesome. If not, asking me to take their word for it only goes so far. I hope that's an attitude shared by many others here.

Pax and Merry Christmas,

Chris

 

[StudentCarl]

I think you judge too quickly without experience. This is a bigger and more diverse group than you realize. Please contribute some substance if that's what you think is lacking, instead of doing what you criticize.

 

[Lord-Humongous]

This is a bigger and more diverse group than you realize. Please contribute some substance if that's what you think is lacking, instead of doing what you criticize.

Noted, I'll post a thread in a moment. I've got an issue that I need some input on.

 

[granfire]

I think we get a we bit carried away some times when our passions come into play.

While some of the history stuff is getting heated at times I don't think we had any flaming...

 

[KarateMomUSA]

It's like the Ninjitsu forum on another board, LOL. It amazes me how people can become so preoccupied with details about who said what 50 years ago. Shouldn't we focus on training? Martial arts aren't about petty arguments that have no bearing on where we are today.

I am very preoccupied with details from 50 years ago, as I think it is about time that we shed some light on them & finally get to the bottom of this often confused & controversial topic. I think it is important for TKD & its students. I believe that it is necessary to clear the air before we can move forward & I think with all my heart that TKD should move forward. I also think that it is deeply important that we credit the many Korean men who made what so many around the world do, possible. It is not only for us, but for every future student of TKD.
You know that the Kukki TKD version of history does not credit any TKD leaders for leading & developing Kukki TKD. It still officially promotes the 2,000 year old myth. We know that a motivation for this is that not 1 person developed Kukki TKD & also that to acknowledge the original 5 kwan founders is to also highlight the karate roots. That simply was done for nationalist interests. GM Lee Chong Woo said their teachers had to be sacrificed for those same nationalist purposes. That is sad & frankly no longer needed, as no one buys the 2,000 year old myth & the cat is already out of that karate bag!
Likewise not a single person developed Chang Hon TKD, or the original TKD. While Gen Choi was the principle founder, he did not operate along. There are far too many of his original TKD Pioneers that deserved to be credited & thanked hopefully when they are still alive. Gen Choi highlighted himself for egotistical reasons & to use as a wedge in his never ending battle against the forces in south Korea that he despised.

I for one have not done anything that I think is remotely close to lighting a flame. If I do, I will apologize, make amends as best as I can & remove myself anything that others feel is out of line.

I seek knowledge & have learned so much here from these deep exchanges. I am thankful for that. I do focus on teaching & training. That happens at the dojang. Here I try to learn & share. I would respectfully suggest that if any poster wishes to start a topic on non-historical & non-political topics they are free to do so. If interested, I & I am sure others will follow those threads & share if we have something worth while to contribute.

I only hope that others will remain open minded, as a mind is like a parachute, it works best when open!

 

[Tanaka]

It's like the Ninjitsu forum on another board, LOL. It amazes me how people can become so preoccupied with details about who said what 50 years ago. Shouldn't we focus on training? Martial arts aren't about petty arguments that have no bearing on where we are today.

I think martial arts is more than just "physical" training which is what I think you're hinting.
Before I really got into martial arts; I thought it was just about learning to fight. Well now... I see a history, philosophy, and physical techniques. And not only have I been studying physical techniques but I also been learning the academic side of martial arts.

I can't speak for Korean arts, but it's not just mere politics. Ninjutsu is a tradition. And maintaining that tradition is just as important as learning the physical aspects taught within Ninjutsu. That is why they're always battling the many frauds who try to steal from their tradition.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

The problem that I have is that the catalyst for most all of these arguments in the TKD section is the very tired art vs. sport debate. It has been done to death and it always deteriorates.

Daniel

 

[terryl965]

The problem that I have is that the catalyst for most all of these arguments in the TKD section is the very tired art vs. sport debate. It has been done to death and it always deteriorates.

Daniel

Daniel I agree, but TKD has been devided into these two catagory's and like it or not the two does not mix well with each other. I have found a way to balance it at my school but too many people have there minds made up on this subject. It is a no win stituation for anybody.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Daniel I agree, but TKD has been devided into these two catagory's and like it or not the two does not mix well with each other. I have found a way to balance it at my school but too many people have there minds made up on this subject. It is a no win stituation for anybody.

I don't have a problem with the two categories, and frankly, those who are into one should have no trouble respecting the other. Those who see no difference have a different perspective and I can respect it.

I think that the subject can be discussed, but once the personal digs begin, things just go downhill.

Daniel

 

[dowan50]

I would agree and appreciate the original forum starting with the General. The factual exchanges have been interesting and informative as well as some of the learned historians or librarians for that matter who have shared their personal discussions with the Pioneers not as dogma but a giving and sharing of personal experience. I like to think of Martial Art from a Naturopathic philosophy of not only but also all extremes are bad for you anything to the total exclusion of another may be bad or to much of a good thing.

Anyone who owes their art, skill or even their life to an original Pioneer or root master/prominent student of a Pioneer believes and has great respect for what they have taught them both historically, physically and mentally especially when that may span three or four decades. History is only natural for those who wish to understand their linage as far as they can and seek out others in that same vein for friendship and support.

I think it is sad for anyone who is beyond black belt or even higher in rank that has no knowledge of who their instructor got his experience from and owes their loyalty and respect to. It seems there is a trend of younger people that are a universe unto them selves not wanting anyone to tell them anything.

I agree history debates have no bearing on your physical status but it could change your motivation for training and even how you train that evolves over time. Having a closer connection to the root Chi of an original Pioneer or a master of that pioneer does matter. Experienced officials and judges see it all the time in competition. When you replicate a thing over and over with out staying close to the original it gets watered down so history and tradition does matter.

I do find it interesting how people will take a hard position that eliminates human nature based on a technicality such as GM Choi was no longer a Korean citizen so there for he did not commit treason? It may work out that way on paper but Koreans like many ethic peoples hold very hard traditional standards along family, regional and cultural lines. A Korea born Korean does not stop being Korean regardless of location and blood feud's or grudges over what is considered disloyalty or some type of insult run long a deep. To deny that would be to ignore their nature?

Getting back to hard facts and reference material all written material is based on data which can be manipulated based on the bias of the author? So knowing who or what group wrote the material and what their motivations are tends to give credit or not to the statements. I know for every one post on these forum there are 500 that read and never say anything for fear of being attacked by the who are you or where did you get that but hear say is ok if it comes from people of experience and I feel if 50 people of a certain quality are all saying the same thing possibly it is worth listening to? Please lets not have 50 people post the world is flat? Experience and common sense should enter in somewhere?

Karate Mom I too believe that MA is more than just punches and kicks and some of us have dedicated our lives to carrying on the legacy of our masters who brought their art and way of life to thousands that are now in 3rd and 4th generation now.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

I would agree and appreciate the original forum starting with the General. The factual exchanges have been interesting and informative as well as some of the learned historians or librarians for that matter who have shared their personal discussions with the Pioneers not as dogma but a giving and sharing of personal experience.
Getting back to hard facts and reference material all written material is based on data which can be manipulated based on the bias of the author? So knowing who or what group wrote the material and what their motivations are tends to give credit or not to the statements.

Yes this is true. Not only is it motivation of the source, but also as I keep harping & we do again, it is so very important to understand the history of Korea & Korean politics as the context of the times that TKD developed in influenced the process, the people involved & the reporting of it all!

What we also have to know clearly that it all started from common roots, then took 2 major & separate paths of development. If we all understood that basic fact, we would eliminate much of the contention which would clear up most of the confusion, causing far less controversy now & in the future!

Karate Mom I too believe that MA is more than just punches and kicks and some of us have dedicated our lives to carrying on the legacy of our masters who brought their art and way of life to thousands that are now in 3rd and 4th generation now.

Yes & I find it disrespectful to an extent to not acknowledge contributions by such great martial artists, just because they took a different path of focus & development. Courtesy & integrity are basic tenets that all martial artists should adhere to, especially to & towards fellow martial artists & martial art leaders, due to the special bond that we all share.

 

[miguksaram]

It's like the Ninjitsu forum on another board, LOL. It amazes me how people can become so preoccupied with details about who said what 50 years ago. Shouldn't we focus on training? Martial arts aren't about petty arguments that have no bearing on where we are today.

Those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it. While you may not be interested in the history of where your art is from, many of us are. There have been many threads on training advice given on this forum. Just start searching the archives and you will find opinoins on everything from how to throw a decent sidekick all the way up to how deep should your stance be.

However, if you need to focus on training, then why are you even posting on a board in the first place. You should be at the dojo/dojang bugging your instructor.