Do you train against a real fight? ..punches/kicks flying fast and furious?
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still learning
Senior Master
Hello, Thank-you for sharing that. My Professor is Martin T. Buell, who started his own school of martial art...Universal Kempo Karate schools Assoc.
My Professor train under Professor Thomas Young, Professor Adriano, Paul Seronia, Al Reyes, Walter Godin.
Our system came from Kajukenpo....Our Professor took many things from Kajukenpo....and add his "ways".
Every martial art schools.....can always improve the way they train their students.
This is what I am seeking.....another way to improve the training methods.
I am an outlaw in thinking at Universal Kempo......NO longer a sheep.....seeking NEW ways....more effective than what is taught today...CAN WE improve all the training? ......SURE!
Many things in Science of the past...which was base to be true....today some of those things are proven wrong....NOT to prove wrong..but to seek a better way of training!
Always seeking....better methods of learning.....
Runners no longer train in the ways of the 50's and 60's
Swimmers no longer train in the ways of the 50' 60's
Martial arts? .....better ways will be discover....and one day NO longer train in the ways of the past.......always seek find "better ways"
Limit the thinking this is all you need to know? ......one will never advqnce
That is why today so many people cross train...
Before BJJ came into light? ...NO one believe learning grappling was important....GRACES family change that thinking
Before Bruce Lee came to light? ...his thinking has change many believers of the past ways of training.....
Always question the learning......if it right for you....than KEEP it! ...Aloha
SL,
Like I said, if you feel that your training is not giving you what you want, then I suggest you find something that does. Keep in mind, that it may not necessarily be the art, but the way you are doing your training. Like I've said to you, when I train my techs. my instructor doesnt just stand there. Sure, in the beginning, its necessary in order to get the moves down, but after that, you need to keep it real.
Keep in mind, that the techs. are a building block. You may not pull off an entire tech., but instead only a part of it. Doesnt mean that the art is useless though.
Trust me, I'm the first one to talk about training with some realism, aliveness and the importance of cross training or cross referencing other arts. The art works, but you need to put in some work as well. Nothing comes easy.
Most of you have it the way I see it. Training is for ideal situations. You have to start off on how to defend against one punch, kick, or grab. Then you build on that to combinations. You learn how to put them together. You focus on repetition of the basic techniques.
Street fighters do come in fast and furious, and they do throw as much as they can as fast as they can. Many times this is because they are afraid and don't want you to get a chance, and many times these are what I call flurry punches...they sting a little, but don't do excessive damage. Don't get me wrong there are people who street fight who are extremely strong and skilled, and it would be a major mistake to ever think otherwise til the fight is over.
To me, though, there is a difference between a street fight and an attacker trying to rob you, assault you sexually, kidnap you, etc. Street fights are two guys or multiple people duking it out for pride or face, or whatever. My advice fight dirty, you usually see this coming.
An attacker trying to rob, rape, kidnap, whatever, will try to sneak up on you, because the element of surprise is their friend.
All you can do is practice, and practice hard. Get someone in a padded suit, but make sure they react appropriately when you fight back. But have them attack you with a barrage of crazy strikes, kicks, grabs. Have them take you down if they can, and fight dirty to get them off of you. Don't quit, don't give up, there's plenty of time to catch your breath later.
Best, and I hope none of you ever have to find out for real,
Brian
Street fighters do come in fast and furious, and they do throw as much as they can as fast as they can. Many times this is because they are afraid and don't want you to get a chance, and many times these are what I call flurry punches...they sting a little, but don't do excessive damage. Don't get me wrong there are people who street fight who are extremely strong and skilled, and it would be a major mistake to ever think otherwise til the fight is over.
To me, though, there is a difference between a street fight and an attacker trying to rob you, assault you sexually, kidnap you, etc. Street fights are two guys or multiple people duking it out for pride or face, or whatever. My advice fight dirty, you usually see this coming.
An attacker trying to rob, rape, kidnap, whatever, will try to sneak up on you, because the element of surprise is their friend.
All you can do is practice, and practice hard. Get someone in a padded suit, but make sure they react appropriately when you fight back. But have them attack you with a barrage of crazy strikes, kicks, grabs. Have them take you down if they can, and fight dirty to get them off of you. Don't quit, don't give up, there's plenty of time to catch your breath later.
Best, and I hope none of you ever have to find out for real,
Brian
Sorros
Orange Belt
That is totally the reason quit doing any style that punches and kick in the air. I wasn't until I studied Krav Maga that I realised, If you don't use focus mitts and hand held pads, to actually hit and kick something while training. You really not trainig for a fight. The air punchers and kickers have no defence when homeboy jacks you up against a wall or throws you on the ground.
Most of your martial arts are tost when a good grappler or jujitsu guy gets hold of them.
Well said...In the academy we put the rookies in the Redman suits and make one the suspect and one the cop..A small taste of realism of just how fast a fight can be...
still learning
Senior Master
Hello, When one puts on boxing gloves to play or practice with a friends....with real live hard hitting punches? ....you realize quickly how different it is from our martial art training. (OK boxing with friends...has rules and NO kicking)....just working our boxing skills here.
Getting hit.....and hitting back? ...boxing is a hard art to learn! especially ducking and weaveing.
Boxers tells me it takes a few months in the ring before alot of the punches don't hurt anymore ...or feels less painful?
Training and reality can be two very different things?
There is an old story of FBI agents gun training...they would shoot three times pick up their shells and than shoot again.
One day these agents got into a gun battle....afterwards many of them found empty shells in their pockets like in practice training! fire three shots stop to pick up the shells.....funny huh?
The real test of your training may come from an actual incident? ....hope this never does to you!
Aloha , (Training lesssons and real lessons? ...so many times so different!)
Getting hit.....and hitting back? ...boxing is a hard art to learn! especially ducking and weaveing.
Boxers tells me it takes a few months in the ring before alot of the punches don't hurt anymore ...or feels less painful?
Training and reality can be two very different things?
There is an old story of FBI agents gun training...they would shoot three times pick up their shells and than shoot again.
One day these agents got into a gun battle....afterwards many of them found empty shells in their pockets like in practice training! fire three shots stop to pick up the shells.....funny huh?
The real test of your training may come from an actual incident? ....hope this never does to you!
Aloha , (Training lesssons and real lessons? ...so many times so different!)
Drag'n
Green Belt
Still learning, I'm going to go against everybody else and agree with you.
I started asking those same questions after many years of traditional training.
Its not so much that the techniques won't work, but the way in which they are often trained thats the problem.
I see soo many vids of people demonstrating "self defence", where an uke throws a half hearted reverse lunge punch ( the easiest attack in the world to defend against, but the one you'll never see in a real fight) and the defnder will block and then counter with a 5 or 6 (or more!) move combination while the uke just stands there and lets him do it.
A lot of guys can get veery good at putting together these lightning fast impressive combos, but in total ignorance of how a real fight works.
Well what do you expect? Most of these kind of people have never really trained with any realistic contact, let alone been in a real fight.
Of course they will defend it buy saying such things as:
"its the building blocks, the ABC's of combat" .
" Of course you use it differently in a real situation." etc.....
Nothing wrong with that statement . I agree.
Youve got to learn to walk before you can run.
BUT, a lot of MAists dont go past that ABC level to get to learning words and actually having a conversation.
The training stops short of taking them to the point of being able to apply it
in a real struggle.
The bottom line is if you want to learn how to fight , you've got to do just that. Fight.
Unfortunately training with realism is difficult. Its dangerous and it hurts.
But with smart use of protective gear and a little bit of control you can take it to a pretty real level.
Those techniques that cant be applied safely in a sparring situation can at least be drilled in a realistic way.
Defending against undetermined random attacks where the attacker also reacts to movements from the defender, and shows some resistance, rather then just standing there, is something to consider . Also training against combination attacks.
I think anybody who is serious about learning how to fight will ask the same questions you are.
As a serious martial artist I think we all need to constantly re evaluate our training practice and search for a higher and more effective level.
Isnt that what these forums are for?
Good luck in your search.
I started asking those same questions after many years of traditional training.
Its not so much that the techniques won't work, but the way in which they are often trained thats the problem.
I see soo many vids of people demonstrating "self defence", where an uke throws a half hearted reverse lunge punch ( the easiest attack in the world to defend against, but the one you'll never see in a real fight) and the defnder will block and then counter with a 5 or 6 (or more!) move combination while the uke just stands there and lets him do it.
A lot of guys can get veery good at putting together these lightning fast impressive combos, but in total ignorance of how a real fight works.
Well what do you expect? Most of these kind of people have never really trained with any realistic contact, let alone been in a real fight.
Of course they will defend it buy saying such things as:
"its the building blocks, the ABC's of combat" .
" Of course you use it differently in a real situation." etc.....
Nothing wrong with that statement . I agree.
Youve got to learn to walk before you can run.
BUT, a lot of MAists dont go past that ABC level to get to learning words and actually having a conversation.
The training stops short of taking them to the point of being able to apply it
in a real struggle.
The bottom line is if you want to learn how to fight , you've got to do just that. Fight.
Unfortunately training with realism is difficult. Its dangerous and it hurts.
But with smart use of protective gear and a little bit of control you can take it to a pretty real level.
Those techniques that cant be applied safely in a sparring situation can at least be drilled in a realistic way.
Defending against undetermined random attacks where the attacker also reacts to movements from the defender, and shows some resistance, rather then just standing there, is something to consider . Also training against combination attacks.
I think anybody who is serious about learning how to fight will ask the same questions you are.
As a serious martial artist I think we all need to constantly re evaluate our training practice and search for a higher and more effective level.
Isnt that what these forums are for?
Good luck in your search.
FearlessFreep
Senior Master
I'll admit that I'm thinking of changing schools... for some of the reasons mentioned here.
The way I figure, people do MA for any number of a few reasons 1) Self-defense 2) Sport 3) Art 4) Conditioning and 5) Spirituality. 5 Doesn't apply to me, and I think while 4 is a nice side benefit, that if you just want to get/stay in shape, there are a lot of easier and cheaper ways to do it. Art is fine but starting at 35 and already being a musician, husband and father, I don't have the time in my life to devote to another artistic endeavor for art's sake. And I started too old I think to really be an 'artist' in this realm, so Art is another nice side benefit, but cannot be the goal. Which comes down to Sport and Self-Defense (for me... everyone has their own goals and motivations)
For me, I've always wanted my focus to be on self-defense, with some opportunities at sport as a safe way of testing myself. Unfortunately, my current school seems to be mostly focused on art. While occasionally we talk about the usage of techniques for self-defense, we rarely train in any way that drills anything even close. We do a lot of punch and kick drills but they are never against resistance. And they are never in the context of how/when to use them; how to set them up, etc.. I feel like I'm learning the abstraction of the art but not the application.
Which is a shame because I really like our instructor and he is *really good* at what he does, but... I'm not sure I'm getting out of the school what I'm there for. This has been pretty heavy on my mind for the last few weeks so I'm just free-associating out loud here
The way I figure, people do MA for any number of a few reasons 1) Self-defense 2) Sport 3) Art 4) Conditioning and 5) Spirituality. 5 Doesn't apply to me, and I think while 4 is a nice side benefit, that if you just want to get/stay in shape, there are a lot of easier and cheaper ways to do it. Art is fine but starting at 35 and already being a musician, husband and father, I don't have the time in my life to devote to another artistic endeavor for art's sake. And I started too old I think to really be an 'artist' in this realm, so Art is another nice side benefit, but cannot be the goal. Which comes down to Sport and Self-Defense (for me... everyone has their own goals and motivations)
For me, I've always wanted my focus to be on self-defense, with some opportunities at sport as a safe way of testing myself. Unfortunately, my current school seems to be mostly focused on art. While occasionally we talk about the usage of techniques for self-defense, we rarely train in any way that drills anything even close. We do a lot of punch and kick drills but they are never against resistance. And they are never in the context of how/when to use them; how to set them up, etc.. I feel like I'm learning the abstraction of the art but not the application.
Which is a shame because I really like our instructor and he is *really good* at what he does, but... I'm not sure I'm getting out of the school what I'm there for. This has been pretty heavy on my mind for the last few weeks so I'm just free-associating out loud here
FearlessFreep
Senior Master
Which doesn't really help me. It is fun but...
I'm an amateur/semi-pro musician attempting to go more full time (at least 50% with my software development work). I'm also a husband with six kids. While it's nice that the things in my life are fun, I really can't justify the time/expense of an activity for which 'fun' is the goal
I think that is the best reason to justify it... If everything you do has to have a purpose, well, I'd burn out pretty quick.
FearlessFreep
Senior Master
Well, if you went to a cooking class because you wanted to cook but you didn't learn to cook but you did have fun, would it be worth the expense if you actually wanted to learn how to cook?
If I went to a cooking class, having fun would largely involve making tasty things, and if I get that result, I'd call it a success 
Football, hockey, tennis, golf, model airplanes, train sets, poker, video games, concert tickets, etc. All things people spend money on for no practical use except to have fun and learn about the activity they are doing. Outside of that activity there is no "real" use though.
Football, hockey, tennis, golf, model airplanes, train sets, poker, video games, concert tickets, etc. All things people spend money on for no practical use except to have fun and learn about the activity they are doing. Outside of that activity there is no "real" use though.
FearlessFreep
Senior Master
If I went to a cooking class, having fun would largely involve making tasty things, and if I get that result, I'd call it a success
That was kinda my point, I'm going to the cooking class but not making tasty things.... In this case 'tasty things' is "Self-defense with a side order of Sport". What I'm getting is a lot of table setting
That was kinda my point, I'm going to the cooking class but not making tasty things.... In this case 'tasty things' is "Self-defense with a side order of Sport". What I'm getting is a lot of table setting
I have to agree... Play is a perfectly justified end for an activity. The more we've learned of animals, the more we find that they play throughout their lives; maybe they know something?
You just have to balance your activities; if you only do things for fun, you won't meet your responsibilities. But if you never try to have fun... you'll burn out, burn up, and just generally fry yourself.
This is true. If it was such a pain, and not a requirement to make money to get food or pay the rent, people would not do it.
FearlessFreep
Senior Master
I guess I sorta assumed you wouldn't do it if it wasn't fun, so 'having fun' as an underlying requirement is a given. Mostly what I was thinking about was the idea of whether was you are getting out of the class as a personal accomplishment is what you are hoping to get out of a class.
What I hope to get out of the class is to be more skilled in personal self-defense and to have some fun in the sport of the martial arts along the way. Everybody trains different but in my own situation I'm just getting the feeling that the way we train is not moving me toward either of those goals.
What I hope to get out of the class is to be more skilled in personal self-defense and to have some fun in the sport of the martial arts along the way. Everybody trains different but in my own situation I'm just getting the feeling that the way we train is not moving me toward either of those goals.
Drag'n,
I quoted SLs post in addition to your as I think it bears some relevance. IMHO, I think that there is an assumption here, mostly on the part of SL. Seems to me that he thinks that nobody trains with realism, he thinks that nobody has ever used a technique, either in part or in full, in a real situation, and that nobody takes their training to the next level.
IMO, unless someone knows how everyone out there trains, how can he say the things he does? As I said in an earlier post...you need to start off slow, in the 'Ideal Phase' and gradually work to the "What if/Even If" phase. You need to put on gear and have someone really take a swing at you. You need to spar. I'm fortunate to train at a school and have an instructor that does all these things. I don't think that these things are addressed at SLs school, therefore, he assumes that nobody else does either. In another thread, I suggested to him that if hes not happy with his training, he needs to sit down and re-evaluate it..plain and simple. I gave him a link to a few Kajukenbo schools in Hawaii, where he lives, and suggested that he check them out, as they just may give him the realistic training he's looking for.
Mike
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