The two hand "X" block against a kick?
- Thread starter still learning
- Start date
still learning
Senior Master
Hello, In most of the other "Kata's" ...the movement before and after does not lead to this choke or lock of the upper body.
I have a very old "KATA" tape done, by Mr Kenneth Funikoshi...showing step by step and with his students helping to show what the attacks,blocks and movement means step by step...(film in Hawaii on a beach park call "Magic Island,on the Island of Oahu where city of Honolulu is located.)
The "X" block is showing a block to the kick and there is a counter to it!
(Shotokan Karate) Gichin Funikoshi of Japan train "Kenneth" ....I will need to review the tape to find the exact Shotokan Kata's...it is use in!
For our Universal Kempo...It is in our Pinion Kempo Kata five.....
Please check with your own Sensi's for there thoughts on this "X" blocks....is it a block to the kicks or another hidden movement.....
According to Mr Kenneth Funikoshi ....Kata...it is a block to the kick!
Aloha,
Just maybe...
It's both. And more.
Many moves in forms have a straightforward explanation, in the fantasy of the form. They also have more hidden explanations in the function of that form. Just 'cause the "official" interpretation is a punch to the solar plexus -- that doesn't mean that you can't use the exact same punch to hit Shaq in the groin, right?
The one time I recall using an X-block in sparring was a last ditch defence against the last of a series of spinning and jumping kicks where my opponent surprised me by both continuing to press home his attack and by reversing the direction of his spinning hook kick.
The block worked just fine but had the unfortunate effect of absorbing all the power of the kick into me, thus proffering me an inpromptu flying lesson backwards onto a table tennis table (which promptly collapsed
).
In Lau, we trained to usually use the crossed wrist block against kicks that we have moved off the line of. It allows you to prevent the kick from changing direction into you and also allows you to take initiative by seizing the leg and indulging in several forms of close range nastiness. My favourite in sparring (where smacking someone in the groin with a hammer fist or a knife hand across the throat is somewhat frowned upon) was to raise and push the captured leg whilst sweeping the other.
The block worked just fine but had the unfortunate effect of absorbing all the power of the kick into me, thus proffering me an inpromptu flying lesson backwards onto a table tennis table (which promptly collapsed
).In Lau, we trained to usually use the crossed wrist block against kicks that we have moved off the line of. It allows you to prevent the kick from changing direction into you and also allows you to take initiative by seizing the leg and indulging in several forms of close range nastiness. My favourite in sparring (where smacking someone in the groin with a hammer fist or a knife hand across the throat is somewhat frowned upon) was to raise and push the captured leg whilst sweeping the other.
newGuy12
Master of Arts
Yes!!!
Ask an American Kenpo Man about this! GM Ed Parker said that he got insight from watching motions in reverse on a film.
Every block is a strike, every strike is a block. How is it so? Maybe I don't know how it is so, but I know that it IS so. These meanings are "hidden". It is the "occult" (hidden) nature of these things. They are deep. What I mean is, they have one superficial meaning, and then OTHER meanings as well.
Where are the American Kenpo people when you need them??? They can explain these things!
still learning
Senior Master
Hello, NOT sure if this could help you with some answers here...? Ed Parker was saying the "way you block" ..should be hard like a strike, and when you strike...it can act like a block! by stopping the person from farther attacks.
Karate is known for a saying "one punch..one kill" ...this is just a way of saying our punches or blocks need to be that strong and that one punch or block should end the fight! That is the goal of every karate student to reach.
In Shotokan training there is alot of very Hard and strong blocking and punches. Deep powerful stances in the training.
The hidden meanings in Kata? .....UM? ....could it be just that instead of punching to the head? ...one can change it to a knife hand strike to the throat?
The "X" block is just a Block with two hands and nothing more? ...like if something is falling on our heads....many of us raise both hands to block or protect our heads ....kinda like a natural movements ..base on experiences of things falling on us?
OK guys...this is just my thoughts on this.....my feeling on this? ....
Aloha, ( from another planet) ....X does not equal "Y" ....or does it?
PS: Hidden .....something you hide? ..."Y" would Karate Master's who made the Kata? ....hide something from their students? ..and not explain the hidden meanings? after all those years training under their Master's?
X usually marks the spot on many kata maps ....mines has several x's...um? ...the big X vs little x? .....what does this mean? just kidding here..
Hidden meanings in Kata...something that was told to us...each generations now past this on? .....how come by now? ....there is still a mystery...with so many Masters' and Professors, and computers....we can't fiqure this Hidden meanings?
maybe? ...there is NONE? ...........OK could be?
Like when we raise our hands with palms facing out...(an aggressor want to beat us up) .....our hands up and palms out ...means we surrender to you...we do not want a fight ........
Yet the hands up and palms out is : READY TO DEFEND AND STRIKE QUICKLY....IS this the hidden meaning of this technique? Possible to finger poke the other person or straight knife hand to the throat? or push the attack hands down to open up for an attack?
Can this be the same? ......NOT?
Pretending is a good thing.....(like smiling ...can have hidden meanings)
Remember those old storys...it takes only 14 muscles to smile and 72 muscles to frown.....better to smile because you will use less muscles.....( work those other muscles...will only increase having less friends?)
still learning
Senior Master
Hello, Just another thought on "Hidden" parts of Kata's?
It could also mean certain parts of the Kata's may have a duel or muliple reasons that can be apply...?
Aloha, .....Kata will always be questionable?
It could also mean certain parts of the Kata's may have a duel or muliple reasons that can be apply...?
Aloha, .....Kata will always be questionable?
Brian S
Purple Belt
Exactly.
I believe it 's (lower x-"block") application is more along the lines of grappling or dealing with a downed or bent over opponent than stand up blocking.
When dealing with blocks I think the term "uke" is the problem.
X-block = Juji uke, uke means to receive.
"block" is a sucky Americanized misenterpretation of the word "uke."
block = an unspecified parry, jam, guard, check, forearm strikes, etc.
vs.
'block' = the sucky kind of hard blocking a straght punch, downward strike, etc...
Therefore, there are no blocks in kata.
Why would you need to conform to a specific technique to block? Why are there so many different ways to block? There's not, there is only misenterpretation and misunderstanding of the applications. That makes sucky karate in my opinion.
Brian S
Purple Belt
I think that is partially right ,but that is also partially misguided as well.
The thinking along these lines is that when you "block" you are actually striking your opponent in a hard way to injure him. "BE TOUGHER" "HIT THEM HARD WITH THE BLOCK!!" not.
A "block" is not a block at all. It is a strike, a joint lock, a throw, etc, but never a block.
uke means to receive.
Cirdan
Senior Master
Finally.
And we have only tried to tell you this a few hundred times.
It is all parts, all sequences, every single tiny movement not just a part here and there. Now you see the wall of the box. Take your own advice and break through it, step outside.
The next step is realising the principles of movement are more important than induvidual techniques. This is what makes your art flow from the kata.
(edit) VERY good points Brian_S!
newGuy12
Master of Arts
That statement carries a lot of weight. That says a lot! It sounds like something Bruce Lee would say!
Sometimes, too a block is a strike like this --> I have a high block. If I take that same motion and I give a forearm strike to the throat, what is that motion then? It is now a strike.
Aloha --> when the computer fails to make the dial-up connection, sometimes the error "no dial tone" actually means "no dial tone"!!! In that case, there is no big mystery. Other times, its not so simple!
No, thats not correct. This is and has been my point as well as a few others. This is showing me at least that you don't understand kata at all. You just said an X block is just that..a block and nothing more. Yet, Newguy12 posted a link to Ian Abernathy(sp) showing the meaning of an X block and I spoke of a Dillman seminar where he showed another application for the X.
Why should our teachers show us everything? Should we not work to find things on our own? Doc Chapel has said the same thing about "Big Red" which is the American Kenpo book that lists all of the SD techniques. It is not a complete breakdown of everything. Its a guide. Just like our teachers guide us, but they expect us to find things for ourselves.
Its just like Arnis. I took a lesson a few weeks ago. My teacher was showing me things, and it was amazing how similar they were to other things, yet I never put 2 and 2 together until then. You see, I already knew what he was showing me, I already had the movements, as they were already contained in other things, yet I didn't see it until then.
Yes, that would be a huge library of books. I'm sure if it came down to it, one book may contain only a few techniques, depending on how in depth the breakdown was.
still learning
Senior Master
Hello, I am amaze how many people believe our "OLD Masters who made the "Kata"s and taught Karate/Martial arts to their students and ...
HAD HIDDEN Techniques in them....and shield them from this knowledge..not telling them...about it?
"X" Block...look at the movements before and after the technique....it is ONLY A BLOCK......with two hands....many of Katas had movements that is very specfic...and weird in a way to modern fighting or may not be practical for todays defense.
Because someone mention there is "hidden" things....Today everyone is looking at Kata as a PUZZLE? .....Why?
Like looking into clouds...IT is just a cloud...yet we see horses,faces,and other things....it is still a cloud in the sky!
Kata did not come from Big Red or England where these guys are saying what they see or do not tell? They may make their own ones..and confuse everyone with hidden stuffs.
THE MASTERS WHO MADE THE KATA HAD NOT INTENTIONS OF HIDING TECHNIQUES WITH-IN THE kATA'S......WHY WOULD THEY IF THEY DID AND NOT TELL THEIR OWN STUDENTS?
Auto mechanics has many tools some can be use for more than one purpose or other ways to apply.....yet there are specfic use of a certain tool than cannot no other way....WHY WOULD TEACHERS OF MECHANIC HIDE...all the uses?
OR any other teachers? Who felt the need to teach and help there own students learn? WHY HIDE HIDDEN THINGS TO YOUR OWN STUDENTS?
A block is a block and strike is a strike....yet each block is taught to be like a strike....and a strike could act as a block.....
It reminds me of my younger days...I use to believe everything the teachers told us and what non-fiction books said....I really believe all those written materials....
Than one day...friends,others tells you what is said by teachers and books...IS NOT ALWAYS CORRECT! (as young kids growing up) and you find out for YOURSELF! THIS IS TRUE!
I do not believe people like Gichin, and others who taught the first kata's made hidden stuffs in them....they just left it out..because of the dangerous techniques or it could be change to be more than just a punch..it could change to be grab, or whatever instead....THIS IS WHAT IS MEANT BY hidden...today only!
NOT SECRETS TO BE DISCOVER LATER! ....Aloha
HAD HIDDEN Techniques in them....and shield them from this knowledge..not telling them...about it?
"X" Block...look at the movements before and after the technique....it is ONLY A BLOCK......with two hands....many of Katas had movements that is very specfic...and weird in a way to modern fighting or may not be practical for todays defense.
Because someone mention there is "hidden" things....Today everyone is looking at Kata as a PUZZLE? .....Why?
Like looking into clouds...IT is just a cloud...yet we see horses,faces,and other things....it is still a cloud in the sky!
Kata did not come from Big Red or England where these guys are saying what they see or do not tell? They may make their own ones..and confuse everyone with hidden stuffs.
THE MASTERS WHO MADE THE KATA HAD NOT INTENTIONS OF HIDING TECHNIQUES WITH-IN THE kATA'S......WHY WOULD THEY IF THEY DID AND NOT TELL THEIR OWN STUDENTS?
Auto mechanics has many tools some can be use for more than one purpose or other ways to apply.....yet there are specfic use of a certain tool than cannot no other way....WHY WOULD TEACHERS OF MECHANIC HIDE...all the uses?
OR any other teachers? Who felt the need to teach and help there own students learn? WHY HIDE HIDDEN THINGS TO YOUR OWN STUDENTS?
A block is a block and strike is a strike....yet each block is taught to be like a strike....and a strike could act as a block.....
It reminds me of my younger days...I use to believe everything the teachers told us and what non-fiction books said....I really believe all those written materials....
Than one day...friends,others tells you what is said by teachers and books...IS NOT ALWAYS CORRECT! (as young kids growing up) and you find out for YOURSELF! THIS IS TRUE!
I do not believe people like Gichin, and others who taught the first kata's made hidden stuffs in them....they just left it out..because of the dangerous techniques or it could be change to be more than just a punch..it could change to be grab, or whatever instead....THIS IS WHAT IS MEANT BY hidden...today only!
NOT SECRETS TO BE DISCOVER LATER! ....Aloha
SL - Because they said so. The Masters who created the Kata told us that the technique that we are talking about really was a choke, a grab, an entrance to an armbar, a double strike, a clinch, a joint lock, etc.
Calling it an "x-block" is misleading. Why were we mislead, I can't tell you. All I can say is that continuing to call the technique an "x-block" propagates this misunderstanding. It demonstrates that you were trained WRONG in karate. So was I. So were a great many others...until a few of us asked the same questions you are asking and then went back to the source while they were still living.
Now we know the truth. It never was an x block. It never was intended to be an x block. And if you don't think an "x block" is an effective technique, my advice is to find a teacher that can show you what it really is.
Look at people like this...
http://video.google.com/videoplay?d...=15&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=2
That is what you really can do with "x-block". Aren't you at all curious about that? Can you keep saying that this or that technique is ineffective after you've seen that? You just don't know what is possible and if you really want to understand, you can find out if you want to.
One last vid to demonstrate what techniques really are from kata...
http://video.google.com/videoplay?d...=15&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=2
Look at these videos and wonder why you don't know this stuff. That is a very important question.
Also, make an effort to learn the truth. You'll greatly decrease your level of frustration that way...and maybe you'll find some worth in something you discounted.
Calling it an "x-block" is misleading. Why were we mislead, I can't tell you. All I can say is that continuing to call the technique an "x-block" propagates this misunderstanding. It demonstrates that you were trained WRONG in karate. So was I. So were a great many others...until a few of us asked the same questions you are asking and then went back to the source while they were still living.
Now we know the truth. It never was an x block. It never was intended to be an x block. And if you don't think an "x block" is an effective technique, my advice is to find a teacher that can show you what it really is.
Look at people like this...
http://video.google.com/videoplay?d...=15&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=2
That is what you really can do with "x-block". Aren't you at all curious about that? Can you keep saying that this or that technique is ineffective after you've seen that? You just don't know what is possible and if you really want to understand, you can find out if you want to.
One last vid to demonstrate what techniques really are from kata...
http://video.google.com/videoplay?d...=15&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=2
Look at these videos and wonder why you don't know this stuff. That is a very important question.
Also, make an effort to learn the truth. You'll greatly decrease your level of frustration that way...and maybe you'll find some worth in something you discounted.
Still_Learning, masters are just that - people who have devoted their life to understanding the intricacies of a martial art (or they should be, anyway). Differences are good - they make the world much more interesting and prevent boredom... and differing perspectives are, after all, why most people choose to discuss things. You yourself started this thread to discuss "The two hand "X" block against a kick?" Your initial post included this description and question:
To return to a discussion of x-blocks, I know several varieties - X-pressing, X-rising, X-checking, with either closed fists or knifehands - and their applications vary based on how and where they are used. I find X-checking to be useful for certain kicks - especially reverse turning kick, which, for those who are not familiar with our terminology, involves turning backward and swinging the entire leg completely around to the front, a kick that relies heavily on momentum and is often referred to as "the baseball bat kick", because you swing your leg like a baseball bat. If you catch this type of kick before it comes all the way around and has built up its momentum, it is possible to deflect the kick with an X-checking block by catching the kick at an angle. Is it something I'd do all the time? Probably not... but when I'm trying to stop a leg swinging at me full speed, full extension, and aimed at my upper torso or head, I really don't think 1 arm is going to stop it. So if I can't duck or evade such a kick, then yes, X-checking block is one of my options. Is it likely to occur in a street fight? Probably not... but how many people in a street fight will use such a kick anyway?
There are plenty of techniques I have learned that have no apparent/immediate application to street fighting - and this is one of them. I don't generally use it in sparring, and therefore am unlikely to use it in a street fight, should I ever find myself involved in one. However, learning to apply this, and other seemingly-useless techniques, has taught me a great deal about how the body moves and reacts, how to use angles, how to move in multiple directions, and how to judge the effect of my actions on another person - all of them quite useful concepts for self-defense.
To return to a discussion of x-blocks, I know several varieties - X-pressing, X-rising, X-checking, with either closed fists or knifehands - and their applications vary based on how and where they are used. I find X-checking to be useful for certain kicks - especially reverse turning kick, which, for those who are not familiar with our terminology, involves turning backward and swinging the entire leg completely around to the front, a kick that relies heavily on momentum and is often referred to as "the baseball bat kick", because you swing your leg like a baseball bat. If you catch this type of kick before it comes all the way around and has built up its momentum, it is possible to deflect the kick with an X-checking block by catching the kick at an angle. Is it something I'd do all the time? Probably not... but when I'm trying to stop a leg swinging at me full speed, full extension, and aimed at my upper torso or head, I really don't think 1 arm is going to stop it. So if I can't duck or evade such a kick, then yes, X-checking block is one of my options. Is it likely to occur in a street fight? Probably not... but how many people in a street fight will use such a kick anyway?
There are plenty of techniques I have learned that have no apparent/immediate application to street fighting - and this is one of them. I don't generally use it in sparring, and therefore am unlikely to use it in a street fight, should I ever find myself involved in one. However, learning to apply this, and other seemingly-useless techniques, has taught me a great deal about how the body moves and reacts, how to use angles, how to move in multiple directions, and how to judge the effect of my actions on another person - all of them quite useful concepts for self-defense.
Maybe the creators of the various kata didn't deliberately hide things in them. Instead, they developed a way to pass along a combination of applications in a practical shorthand... And a means of analyzing and assessing the principles of their system at the same time?
You can fight with our basic forms directly. Our first form starts with a forward full step, an upward block, a pivot, and ends the set with a punch. The most basic application taught is that you're blocking a strike to your head, and counterpunching. But... change the timing a hair, put the emphasis on the covering hand, not the block, and it starts to morph into a throw. Or, with another slightly different emphasis, it becomes an offensive move! But -- the "essence" of the form is neither; it's the concept, demonstrated in different ways in each set, of defending yourself with immediate counters and without really giving up ground.
So... if one student asks me "is that set blocking a punch to the head", I can honestly say yes. But I might tell another student that it's a way to set up a throw... and still be honest.
Some of our more advanced forms have several "correct" interpretations. That doesn't make any of them wrong, nor does it change the basic movements. It's just how they're used.
You can fight with our basic forms directly. Our first form starts with a forward full step, an upward block, a pivot, and ends the set with a punch. The most basic application taught is that you're blocking a strike to your head, and counterpunching. But... change the timing a hair, put the emphasis on the covering hand, not the block, and it starts to morph into a throw. Or, with another slightly different emphasis, it becomes an offensive move! But -- the "essence" of the form is neither; it's the concept, demonstrated in different ways in each set, of defending yourself with immediate counters and without really giving up ground.
So... if one student asks me "is that set blocking a punch to the head", I can honestly say yes. But I might tell another student that it's a way to set up a throw... and still be honest.
Some of our more advanced forms have several "correct" interpretations. That doesn't make any of them wrong, nor does it change the basic movements. It's just how they're used.
Cirdan
Senior Master
Sir, if that is what you want to think, thats fine. I've explained many times, but you don't listen. You're looking at the X as just an X, yet, there are many variations and applications that can be applies, but you don't want to look for them. I wish you well in your training.
I'm thinking you have no idea what I am referring to when I say "Big Red."
And you know this how?? Did you ask them personally? Were you there to study with them?
Your issue is that people with much more experience than you, are trying to explain things to you, but you refuse to listen, and keep repeating yourself over and over and over and over and over. I still want to know why you think that they didn't hide anything from their students, in hopes that their students would do something you refuse to do...think for yourself.
Mike
Similar threads
