The truth on Self-Defense and TaijiQuan / Tai Chi Chuan

[Xue Sheng]

Since I have mentioned them several times I thought I should add the core principals of Taijiquan as it comes from the Chen Family and Yang Family

The fundamental principles for Chen style taijiquan are summarized as follows:

• Keep the head suspended from above (虚领顶劲, xū lǐng dǐng jìn)
• Keep the body centered and upright (立身中正, lìshēn zhōngzhèng)
• Loosen the shoulders and sink the elbows (松肩沉肘, sōng jiān chén zhǒu)
• Hollow the chest and settle the waist (含胸塌腰, hán xiōng tā yāo)
• Drop the heart/mind energy [to the dantian] (心气下降, xīn qì xià jiàng)
• Breathe naturally (呼吸自然, hū xī zì rán)
• Loosen the hips and keep the knees bent (松胯屈膝, sōng kuà qū xī)
• The crotch is arch shaped (裆劲开圆, dāng jìn kāi yuán)
• Empty and solid separate clearly (虚实分明, xū shí fēn míng)
• The top and bottom coordinate (上下相随. shàng xià xiāng suí)
• Hardness and softness facilitate each other (刚柔相济, gāng róu xiāng jì)
• Fast and slow alternate (快慢相间, (kuài màn xiāng jiàn)
• The external shape travels a curve; (外形走弧线, wài xíng zǒu hú xiàn)
• The internal energy travels a spiral path (内劲走螺旋, nèi jìn zǒu luó xuán)
• The body leads the hand (以身领手, yǐ shēn lǐng shǒu)
• The back waist is an axis (以腰为轴, yǐ yāo wèi zhóu)

THE TEN ESSENTIAL PRINCIPLES OF YANG CHENG FU - Ironically from a Wu style site

The two that are easiest to see that are not being followed are from a Yang perspective are

‘Yong Yi, Bu Yong Li’ - Use mind intention not physical force
‘Shang Xia Xiang Sui’ - Upper and Lower mutually follow

Which from the Chen perspective are

Empty and solid separate clearly (虚实分明, xū shí fēn míng)
The top and bottom coordinate (上下相随. shàng xià xiāng suí)

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

You can watch the video to see some of the reasons people use the thumb up version of the hook.

For myself, I use whatever orientation allows me to get the best alignment for landing my knuckles on the target. The changes depending on the height and distance of the target.

For a close range shovel hook to the ribs, my palm is lightly upwards.
For a close range hook to the head, my palm is towards me and my thumb is up.
For a medium range hook to the head, my palm is down, thumb towards me.
For a really long range hook or an overhand right, my thumb starts to turn downwards and my palm starts to face away from me.


Your chances of being able to catch a boxer's punch and wristlock him are essentially nonexistent. I'm only a mediocre boxer, but I would happily give $100 to anyone who can wristlock me off of my hook punch during sparring, just for the chance to see how they did it. (I don't anticipate having the chance to pay out that $100.)

At the range I throw the thumb up/palm in hook, the forearm is not the surface you will hit with a hard block. The forearm is lined up directly behind the fist in along the path of the punch. If you succeed in applying a hard block, it will be to the bicep of the punching arm. (And that would be the same at that range whether I had the thumb up or in.)

Ok now I want very badly to see you and @Kung Fu Wang try this out.

 

[Dirty Dog]

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[Tony Dismukes]

Ok now I want very badly to see you and @Kung Fu Wang try this out.

I would love to have the chance to meet KFW some days and pick his brain for some Shuai Jiao tips. It’s one of the grappling arts I haven’t had a chance to try and experience in person yet.

 

[windwalker099]

The two that are easiest to see that are not being followed are from a Yang perspective are

‘Yong Yi, Bu Yong Li’ - Use mind intention not physical force
‘Shang Xia Xiang Sui’ - Upper and Lower mutually follow

Which from the Chen perspective are

Empty and solid separate clearly (虚实分明, xū shí fēn míng)
The top and bottom coordinate (上下相随. shàng xià xiāng suí)

Do you feel they are different, only different interpretations...
or are they "your" interpretations of the differences

not looking for a definitive, right or wrong, only in the interest of discussion

Have my own thoughts on this interested in reading others...

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Honestly, I do consider Judo and BJJ to be the same art - or at least facets of the same art. The fundamental principles are the same and getting better at one will only make you better at the other.

The change in the name is just down to an historical accident of marketing and attempts to claim ownership of the art. The difference in curriculum focus is due to difference in the sport competition rules. But if you are training the two as martial arts without so much concern for winning tournaments, then they pretty much just blend together. There's a reason @elder999 will tease that BJJ stands for Basically Just Judo.

(The same goes for Sambo, BTW. Everything I've learned from Sambo fits seamlessly within my BJJ.)

Aikido is a little different. It's part of the extended jujutsu family, but it's more like a distant cousin, both in lineage and application. I can certainly identify principles from Aikido which are important in my conception of BJJ. But Aikido has gone down a very specialized path in training methods and contextual applications of those principles. (Also, from an historical standpoint it would be difficult to track down a common ancestor of Aikido and BJJ, assuming that one even exists.)

I need a second body so I can train more in this stuff that I know so little about.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Since I have mentioned them several times I thought I should add the core principals of Taijiquan as it comes from the Chen Family and Yang Family

The fundamental principles for Chen style taijiquan are summarized as follows:

• Keep the head suspended from above (虚领顶劲, xū lǐng dǐng jìn)
• Keep the body centered and upright (立身中正, lìshēn zhōngzhèng)
• Loosen the shoulders and sink the elbows (松肩沉肘, sōng jiān chén zhǒu)
• Hollow the chest and settle the waist (含胸塌腰, hán xiōng tā yāo)
• Drop the heart/mind energy [to the dantian] (心气下降, xīn qì xià jiàng)
• Breathe naturally (呼吸自然, hū xī zì rán)
• Loosen the hips and keep the knees bent (松胯屈膝, sōng kuà qū xī)
• The crotch is arch shaped (裆劲开圆, dāng jìn kāi yuán)
• Empty and solid separate clearly (虚实分明, xū shí fēn míng)
• The top and bottom coordinate (上下相随. shàng xià xiāng suí)
• Hardness and softness facilitate each other (刚柔相济, gāng róu xiāng jì)
• Fast and slow alternate (快慢相间, (kuài màn xiāng jiàn)
• The external shape travels a curve; (外形走弧线, wài xíng zǒu hú xiàn)
• The internal energy travels a spiral path (内劲走螺旋, nèi jìn zǒu luó xuán)
• The body leads the hand (以身领手, yǐ shēn lǐng shǒu)
• The back waist is an axis (以腰为轴, yǐ yāo wèi zhóu)

THE TEN ESSENTIAL PRINCIPLES OF YANG CHENG FU - Ironically from a Wu style site

The two that are easiest to see that are not being followed are from a Yang perspective are

‘Yong Yi, Bu Yong Li’ - Use mind intention not physical force
‘Shang Xia Xiang Sui’ - Upper and Lower mutually follow

Which from the Chen perspective are

Empty and solid separate clearly (虚实分明, xū shí fēn míng)
The top and bottom coordinate (上下相随. shàng xià xiāng suí)

Yes all this was/is part of my training as well.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Since I have mentioned them several times I thought I should add the core principals of Taijiquan as it comes from the Chen Family and Yang Family

The fundamental principles for Chen style taijiquan are summarized as follows:

• Keep the head suspended from above (虚领顶劲, xū lǐng dǐng jìn)
• Keep the body centered and upright (立身中正, lìshēn zhōngzhèng)
• Loosen the shoulders and sink the elbows (松肩沉肘, sōng jiān chén zhǒu)
• Hollow the chest and settle the waist (含胸塌腰, hán xiōng tā yāo)
• Drop the heart/mind energy [to the dantian] (心气下降, xīn qì xià jiàng)
• Breathe naturally (呼吸自然, hū xī zì rán)
• Loosen the hips and keep the knees bent (松胯屈膝, sōng kuà qū xī)
• The crotch is arch shaped (裆劲开圆, dāng jìn kāi yuán)
• Empty and solid separate clearly (虚实分明, xū shí fēn míng)
• The top and bottom coordinate (上下相随. shàng xià xiāng suí)
• Hardness and softness facilitate each other (刚柔相济, gāng róu xiāng jì)
• Fast and slow alternate (快慢相间, (kuài màn xiāng jiàn)
• The external shape travels a curve; (外形走弧线, wài xíng zǒu hú xiàn)
• The internal energy travels a spiral path (内劲走螺旋, nèi jìn zǒu luó xuán)
• The body leads the hand (以身领手, yǐ shēn lǐng shǒu)
• The back waist is an axis (以腰为轴, yǐ yāo wèi zhóu)

THE TEN ESSENTIAL PRINCIPLES OF YANG CHENG FU - Ironically from a Wu style site

The two that are easiest to see that are not being followed are from a Yang perspective are

‘Yong Yi, Bu Yong Li’ - Use mind intention not physical force
‘Shang Xia Xiang Sui’ - Upper and Lower mutually follow

Which from the Chen perspective are

Empty and solid separate clearly (虚实分明, xū shí fēn míng)
The top and bottom coordinate (上下相随. shàng xià xiāng suí)

To my mind this is what makes TCC distinctly different from all other arts. These are the coordinations that cannot be learned quickly and instead must be marinated into the practice over time.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

ATTENTION ALL USERS:

This is a reminder that religious and political discussions do not belong here. Take them to our sister site
US Message Board Political Discussion Forum instead. Else threads get locked, warnings get issued, accounts get suspended or banned.

@Dirty Dog
MartialTalk Senior Moderator

To be fair, no actual religion or religious figure was mentioned.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I would love to have the chance to meet KFW some days and pick his brain for some Shuai Jiao tips. It’s one of the grappling arts I haven’t had a chance to try and experience in person yet.

Please invite me, I promise to shut up and be a good student.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Do you feel they are different, only different interpretations...
or are they "your" interpretations of the differences

not looking for a definitive, right or wrong, only in the interest of discussion

Have my own thoughts on this interested in reading others...

From my very limited understanding, I believe that those are descriptions of the idea or feeling one should be attempting to find in the body during the form or application. Please correct me if I misunderstand the concept.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Do you feel they are different, only different interpretations...
or are they "your" interpretations of the differences

not looking for a definitive, right or wrong, only in the interest of discussion

Have my own thoughts on this interested in reading others...

Not sure what you are asking

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I can't quite picture what you're saying here, John. Can you say it a different way for me?

Trying to point thumb 45 degree outward, this is very hard to do.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I don’t understand what you mean when you say the body doesn’t work that way. Could you elaborate?

Again, try to turn your thumb 45 degree outward (toward your opponent's head). This is very hard to do (at least for me).

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I think the question was more why "hook" should be interpreted as just the boxing hook ...

I just borrow the boxing term instead of using the CMA term "circular punch".

To me,

- leading arm punch = jab.
- back arm punch = cross.
- circular punch = hook.
- vertical up, or 45 degree upward punch = uppercut.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Again, try to turn your thumb 45 degree outward (toward your opponent's head). This is very hard to do (at least for me).

I just borrow the boxing term instead of using the CMA term "circular punch".

To me,

- leading arm punch = jab.
- back arm punch = cross.
- circular punch = hook.
- vertical up, or 45 degree upward punch = uppercut.

The names are where I get confused, everyone has 6 names for each tool.

 

[drop bear]

Well how do you do it? I’m curious what you think is hinkey or not hinkey.

Like icey mike. Depends on the distance.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Like icey mike. Depends on the distance.

I usually only use “hooks“ up close, it may be that I don’t have the proper training to use them well at distance. It feels too slow and easy to avoid at distance. I have eaten a few straight right hands as a result of crossing the center line on a high distanced hook and missing. Any tips?

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Like icey mike. Depends on the distance.

I can’t stand listening to that guy. He isn’t as bad as Jake Mace but it’s close.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I usually only use “hooks“ up close, it may be that I don’t have the proper training to use them well at distance. It feels too slow and easy to avoid at distance. I have eaten a few straight right hands as a result of crossing the center line on a high distanced hook and missing. Any tips?