The Taeguek Cipher - Book Review

[Miles]

FWIW, my student who usually translates for GM Park was not at the seminar so I didn't get a chance to ask him about boonhae in the Taegueks.

However, having said that, GM Park demonstrates blocks as arm-bars and set-ups for blocks as parrying motions. At the Kukkiwon, GM Lee demonstrated a scissor block as a catch and simultaneous elbow break.

 

[SJON]

Now we're getting somewhere!

Miles, can you talk me through some examples of the kind of "blocks as armbars" and "preparations as parries" that GM Park demonstrates.

Maybe there are more similarities between our approaches than we suspected.

Best regards,

Simon

 

[StuartA]

GM Lee demonstrated a scissor block as a catch and simultaneous elbow break.

Good stuff... but whats a scissor block? (picture perhaps as maybe it comes undera different term for others like me)

Cheers,

Stuart

 

[bluekey88]

The scissor block start from a posiiton where one arm is in a low block position and the other arm is in an outside block position. You then swing your arms at the elbows simultaneously loike winshield wiper so that the outside block become s a low block and the low block becomes an outside block. The "scissor past eash other.

In Taeguk Chiljang, there are two double scissor blocks at moves 12 and 13 respectively. These can also be found in Kata heian san dan (for reference purposes...if thery are in the Chang hon forms, I couldn't sya where)

Peace,
Erik

 

[StuartA]

As I suspected... we have a similar block in pattern Hwa-Rang. I too teach an arm-lock application to it

Cheers,

Stuart

 

[IcemanSK]

Out of interest is this the Park, Hae Man many are refering to?

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=7HO0yRJ-btM

Stuart

I did notice in this video that GM Park did use other than "standard" TKD techniques. Including a "pull out" after a wrist grab & a "foot stomp" in Tae Guek Oh Jang.

 

[terryl965]

G.M. Park does move outside the relms alot of the times, but he has never really gone into details like I would like to see. He is good with poomsae's.

 

[exile]

The scissor block start from a posiiton where one arm is in a low block position and the other arm is in an outside block position. You then swing your arms at the elbows simultaneously loike winshield wiper so that the outside block become s a low block and the low block becomes an outside block. The "scissor past eash other.

In Taeguk Chiljang, there are two double scissor blocks at moves 12 and 13 respectively. These can also be found in Kata heian san dan (for reference purposes...if thery are in the Chang hon forms, I couldn't sya where)

Peace,
Erik

There's a scissors block in Palgwe Oh Jang as well at the very beginning; from joon bi, you go into that position as the first move, prior to the double knifehand down block to the left. The version we do at my dojang hams it up a bit with flamboyant circular motions to lead up to the scissors pass. Not a version purists would like, probably, but it's a bit of self-indulgent fun....

 

[FearlessFreep]

Can anyone give me a good practical usage of the scissors block? I've run into this is Taegeuk Chil-Jang and been asked by junior students and always thought my internal answers were unclear and my spoken answers were lame?

 

[exile]

Can anyone give me a good practical usage of the scissors block? I've run into this is Taegeuk Chil-Jang and been asked by junior students and always thought my internal answers were unclear and my spoken answers were lame?

I see a knee in the groin or abdomen, bringing the attacker's upper body down, followed by a hair- or ear-grab and pulldown (the downward part of the block), with a simultaneous rising fist impacting the attacker's descending throat (the upward part). Something along those lines...

 

[StuartA]

I did notice in this video that GM Park did use other than "standard" TKD techniques. Including a "pull out" after a wrist grab & a "foot stomp" in Tae Guek Oh Jang.

Pull = standard release technique.. same can be found (as a release technique) in the Chang Hons. The foot stamp was good though, and shows he like a little creativeness in the patterns (a lesson there perhaps!)... unless its a stamp in the actual pattern (which I dont know). Wont mention the rising block or X-stance/backfist applications however :uhyeah:

Stuart

 

[StuartA]

Can anyone give me a good practical usage of the scissors block? I've run into this is Taegeuk Chil-Jang and been asked by junior students and always thought my internal answers were unclear and my spoken answers were lame?

I have it as an arm trap/lock and also a combination parry/PP strike.. not sure of the stances used in Chil-Jang, so they may effect it (ours are done in a closed stance)

Stuart

 

[FearlessFreep]

I have it as an arm trap/lock and also a combination parry/PP strike

Stuart

Intriguing...can you break it down? Or have a video?

Admitedly, I am a bit cynical about a lot of motions in the Taeguek forms. Good for some thing but I rarely look for direct, practical application of every motion. So I'm not saying I expect a realistic answer, but I am curious and willing to learn

 

[StuartA]

Intriguing...can you break it down? Or have a video?

No video, but will try to break them down.

For ease of understanding Im gonna go all ABC...

1. Arm trap lock
Get opponent to hold out right arm (aka a simulated grab)
Use the block by bringing your left arm down from above their onto their forearm, whilst your right arm comes up underneath their arm, to the elbow joint - split second after the first in order to bend the elbow. You should find their arm bends and goes behind them (or they turn slightly) allowing you get trap their arm behidn their back

2. Parry & PP Strike Combination
As a strike comes in (right arm), pivot body 90 degrees (so your facing their arm side ways (avoids blow and sets up counter).. at same time block the arm with your left (using back of forearm in sort of mid block position) simoutainiously striking to groin, following parry, change over, use left arm to pull theirs down (if you can) and strike to the carotid artery or jaw line with the right (use arm, if thumb of fist depending on height) - this was taught to me by a PP expert who happens to hold a 7th dan in TKD also (Chung Do kwan I believe - old skool)

Hope you get them, and remember... they are to secret for my Vol 2! :shooter:

Stuart

 

[Miles]

Now we're getting somewhere!

Miles, can you talk me through some examples of the kind of "blocks as armbars" and "preparations as parries" that GM Park demonstrates.

Maybe there are more similarities between our approaches than we suspected.

Best regards,

Simon

Sure! In TG5 at the end of the poomsae is a left low block followed by right inside middle block, then a front kick followed by a stomp and right front strike.

GM Park demonstrated that the right hand performing the front strike is a parry of a punch into the defender's left hand which pulls the attacker into the defender's right front strike. This is done while simultaneously stomping down the attacker's shin to instep.

BTW, hoping to get a copy of your book for Christmas.

 

[FearlessFreep]

No video, but will try to break them down.
...
Hope you get them, and remember...

Thanks, those follow and I can visualize it, although it did fit my expectations of not really being the scissors block(s) from Taegeuk Chil-Jang but rather an application of the general motions of a scissors block in a markedly different context.

 

[StuartA]

Thanks, those follow and I can visualize it, although it did fit my expectations of not really being the scissors block(s) from Taegeuk Chil-Jang but rather an application of the general motions of a scissors block in a markedly different context.

Sorry.. you lost me... can you explain?

what do you mean by " although it did fit my expectations of not really being the scissors block(s) from Taegeuk Chil-Jang" and "an application of the general motions of a scissors block in a markedly different context"

I looked at a diagram of Taegeuk Chil-Jang (below), and with exception of the stances and the turn used in the ch'ang hon pattern for No.2 app, I cant see much of a difference for the blocking motion and I cant see the stance making much of a difference (esp for the first app), so Im guessing the block is perfromed in a different motion or something!! Actually, looking at the pattern diagram below, the next two moves also fit the 1st application, as if the oppoenent is turned a grab and pull on the knee would attack his spine

BTW, in the first example app, a second motion (of same block) releases the right hand and enages the attacker left arm (now behind them) in a locked position!

Stuart

 

[IcemanSK]

Pull = standard release technique.. same can be found (as a release technique) in the Chang Hons. The foot stamp was good though, and shows he like a little creativeness in the patterns (a lesson there perhaps!)... unless its a stamp in the actual pattern (which I dont know). Wont mention the rising block or X-stance/backfist applications however :uhyeah:

Stuart

Stuart,
I know pull is a standard release technique. Yet many folks (including SJON in his book) ignore it in Tae Guek Oh jang in favor of something else. I brought it up because (even tho it seems obvious to many) it is not to everyone.

 

[FearlessFreep]

"so Im guessing the block is perfromed in a different motion or something!! "


Yes, motion 12A is the first step of the scissors block and is done in a forward extended stance (or deep front stance or however you call it). Also the 12A and 12B are really one move. Also both arm motions in 12A are executed simultaneously

What that means is that if you were to use a right hand grab to my right or left shoulder/center chest/etc... I would drop forward into a forward extended stance... distances don't make sense to then do the first part of the scissors block to break your grasp and turn it around and arm lock behind your back. Especially since the left arm motion in 12A is usually coming upward/outward, not downward.

Add to this is that 12A and 12B are really just "12" and are only separated in the diagram to illustrate the full set of arm motions. This doesn't flow into the arm lock portion of your App 1.

So...it would appear to me at least that....Taegeuk Chil-Jang uses a scissors block and your App 1 uses a a scissors block but the similarity in the motions is fairly broad

 

[TKDHermit]

can someone tell me in Taegeuk 5, after the sidekick, what's the slapping of the elbow for? lol.

and, generally in poomsae, how do you chamber a low block? as in i know blocking arm starts frm shoulder, but the "pull back" arm should it be pointed middle section or low section before pulling back? and how does that block work? -.- lol.

and as for crossblock, is there any rule as to which arm is on top or below?