As this thread is getting quite large and mainly concerns Simons book and the Taegueks, I feel it would be a good idea to (re)clarify my position on all this and my reasons for that reasoning, as I dont want it to look like its a witch hunt of Hae Man Park or any other masters.
First of all there are two influences involved in this. The things that influenced Taekwon-do as a whole and the things that purely influenced the patterns. For Taekwon-do there are any number of influences, this is clear from my own research of the Ch'ang hon system and though TKD is by and large influenced by Shotokan, it also has influence in varying degrees and guises from Judo, Hapkido, Taek Kwon and other arts.
However, the patterns fo Ch'ang Hon are by and large influenced by Shotokan (with WTF patterns being influenced by Ch'ang Hon and thus by design, also Shotokan) and not other arts. They have the Korean twist on them, but they are still following the same template of Shotokan and it is this area, and this area alone that we are discussing here.
Okay, now I strongly believe that there is a black hole in Shotokans history regarding kata applications. It isnt just a belief, but fact backed up by lots of reseach and evidence, both by myself and the Karate researchers.
According to research, pre-shotokan Karate was the arts practiced only by the palace guards for defence of the King of Okinawa and as such it was top secret. The king died in 1879 and thus the 'official secrecy' sworn by all who studied was disolved. Funakoshi was a body guard in training, he was not a full bodyguard and as such had not learnt the full bodyguarding system and when the king died, his training was not completed. He had learnt Itsous kata, but not the fine details, which were only filled in when a body guard was to take it up as an official duty/job and then sworn to the same secrecy of the others.
So Funakoshi didnt learn the finer details of the patterns, just the shell (p/k/b).. Itsou, set about redesigning the Karate system for the Okinawa schools, thus it took a less lethal approach, untilizing blocks rather than grab/break than techniques. Funakoshi then took Karate to Japan in the same mode as Itsous "school system", thus indepth/dangerous applications didnt travel across from Itsou to Funakoshi, Itsou to the schools and Okinawa to Japan. the buck stopped with Itsou and started again with Funakoshi in a different guise. Plus there is the added thoughts that perhaps the oppressed (Okinawans) didnt want to teach the oppressors their system, so again, gave them the "school system".
Okinawa>Japan>Korea = Taekwondo. However, though the finer details were not transmitted across, the basic buidling blocks of kata were. These were remodelled by many Karate systems and of course TKD. However, they were still used/modelled with the same outlook as Funakoshi had and thus the p/k/b variety continued in various forms & guises, carry all the while the building blocks for a deeper understanding of them.
Anyone who was instrumental in forming kata from 1901 to 1998 (give of take) used the Funakoshi Shotokan model (Im refering to TKD & Karate here). Therefore, they were all based on the p/k/b mentality, but all carried with them the building blocks to make them more than the sum of thier parts - if they had verved away from this, it wouldnt have been possible in the same way.
So when I talk of masters not knowing the deeper applications to patterns, I am not refering to a single master, but to all that fall into the time period I gave mentioned above. Like it or not, as patterns carry forward, whether conciously or not, certain attributes were carried along with them... and its these attributes that allow people like Iain Abernethy and Simon to either unlock them, or make them more than they previously were. Its not a slight on the masters that didnt know/realise or their martial knowledge.. Ch'ang for example teaches many throwing techniques, there are sections in Gen Chois manuals on them.. but ion the surface, these are not in the patterns, not as standard applications put forth by the guys that created them.. though when digging a little deeper they are there, many JJ guys easily recognise them! So the martial knowledge was there, just not with regards to applying it in the patterns (IMO.. as Simons opinion differs).
It doesnt mean individuals didnt utilize them in a more pragmatic manner, Im sure certain karate instructors did, I know TKD drill instructors did, Dillman and others did.. but the issue was that due to communication at the time, these were relatively small instances compared to the wave of p/k/b kata/patterns going around. Its only now, with modern technology, that insights, theories, research, evidence etc. can be shared and discussed openly that the relativness of it all becomes more of a force to be reckoned with and of course we need those that are willing to question and go against the docterines of the last 100 years. In essense, Karate & TKD have come full circle and I (and others) feel its time to embrace that and throw away the shackles of the past 100+ years!
It reminds me of a TV advert I saw. Say I was a caveman and aliens felt it would be good for us to have the wheel, they they dropped some stone circles with holes in them and in one they put an axel, thinking its quite simple to make the leap from stone circle to cart. However, i have never seen a wheel, or a cart and the wheel was lying flat with a pole sticking out the centre... great I thought, must be a new washing line (like i have seen already) - so I connected the pole with vine and hung my lion clothes out to dry! Point is, it would take almost a 'vision' for someone to realise in the 1950s to 1970s, that patterns, evolved with more more than p/k/b until modern technology, openess and sharing, walls and barriers coming down (plus the odd light bulb moment) allowed someone to gather evidence to the contary when they finally went "a-ha... I wonder"!
Anyway, thats my take on things and why I argue against certain issues. I just dont want anyone to think I dislike a certain person or art, because I hold the pioneers and masters in great respect, I just see things differently, as 'our time' allows me to do so.
Stuart
Ps. there is also evidence to support that those since 1901 kata/patterns are used as a mass training system for large groups, originally, before Itsou introduced them to the schools of okinawa, kata were a more personal thing. One instructor would teach one or two students his kata, they would then amend and change the kata to suit their fighting style etc. etc. Uniformed group practice is another area that has travelled across, when in fact, this wasnt the original intention either - but again, many do not know this and thus it continued as the 'way it was meant to be'
PPs. If we kept to the doctrines of people on the premise that they are a high authority and thus know better, we would still believe the earth was flat and that babies should sleep on their fronts to avoid cot deaths (and old and new example of why it is good to question)
First of all there are two influences involved in this. The things that influenced Taekwon-do as a whole and the things that purely influenced the patterns. For Taekwon-do there are any number of influences, this is clear from my own research of the Ch'ang hon system and though TKD is by and large influenced by Shotokan, it also has influence in varying degrees and guises from Judo, Hapkido, Taek Kwon and other arts.
However, the patterns fo Ch'ang Hon are by and large influenced by Shotokan (with WTF patterns being influenced by Ch'ang Hon and thus by design, also Shotokan) and not other arts. They have the Korean twist on them, but they are still following the same template of Shotokan and it is this area, and this area alone that we are discussing here.
Okay, now I strongly believe that there is a black hole in Shotokans history regarding kata applications. It isnt just a belief, but fact backed up by lots of reseach and evidence, both by myself and the Karate researchers.
According to research, pre-shotokan Karate was the arts practiced only by the palace guards for defence of the King of Okinawa and as such it was top secret. The king died in 1879 and thus the 'official secrecy' sworn by all who studied was disolved. Funakoshi was a body guard in training, he was not a full bodyguard and as such had not learnt the full bodyguarding system and when the king died, his training was not completed. He had learnt Itsous kata, but not the fine details, which were only filled in when a body guard was to take it up as an official duty/job and then sworn to the same secrecy of the others.
So Funakoshi didnt learn the finer details of the patterns, just the shell (p/k/b).. Itsou, set about redesigning the Karate system for the Okinawa schools, thus it took a less lethal approach, untilizing blocks rather than grab/break than techniques. Funakoshi then took Karate to Japan in the same mode as Itsous "school system", thus indepth/dangerous applications didnt travel across from Itsou to Funakoshi, Itsou to the schools and Okinawa to Japan. the buck stopped with Itsou and started again with Funakoshi in a different guise. Plus there is the added thoughts that perhaps the oppressed (Okinawans) didnt want to teach the oppressors their system, so again, gave them the "school system".
Okinawa>Japan>Korea = Taekwondo. However, though the finer details were not transmitted across, the basic buidling blocks of kata were. These were remodelled by many Karate systems and of course TKD. However, they were still used/modelled with the same outlook as Funakoshi had and thus the p/k/b variety continued in various forms & guises, carry all the while the building blocks for a deeper understanding of them.
Anyone who was instrumental in forming kata from 1901 to 1998 (give of take) used the Funakoshi Shotokan model (Im refering to TKD & Karate here). Therefore, they were all based on the p/k/b mentality, but all carried with them the building blocks to make them more than the sum of thier parts - if they had verved away from this, it wouldnt have been possible in the same way.
So when I talk of masters not knowing the deeper applications to patterns, I am not refering to a single master, but to all that fall into the time period I gave mentioned above. Like it or not, as patterns carry forward, whether conciously or not, certain attributes were carried along with them... and its these attributes that allow people like Iain Abernethy and Simon to either unlock them, or make them more than they previously were. Its not a slight on the masters that didnt know/realise or their martial knowledge.. Ch'ang for example teaches many throwing techniques, there are sections in Gen Chois manuals on them.. but ion the surface, these are not in the patterns, not as standard applications put forth by the guys that created them.. though when digging a little deeper they are there, many JJ guys easily recognise them! So the martial knowledge was there, just not with regards to applying it in the patterns (IMO.. as Simons opinion differs).
It doesnt mean individuals didnt utilize them in a more pragmatic manner, Im sure certain karate instructors did, I know TKD drill instructors did, Dillman and others did.. but the issue was that due to communication at the time, these were relatively small instances compared to the wave of p/k/b kata/patterns going around. Its only now, with modern technology, that insights, theories, research, evidence etc. can be shared and discussed openly that the relativness of it all becomes more of a force to be reckoned with and of course we need those that are willing to question and go against the docterines of the last 100 years. In essense, Karate & TKD have come full circle and I (and others) feel its time to embrace that and throw away the shackles of the past 100+ years!
It reminds me of a TV advert I saw. Say I was a caveman and aliens felt it would be good for us to have the wheel, they they dropped some stone circles with holes in them and in one they put an axel, thinking its quite simple to make the leap from stone circle to cart. However, i have never seen a wheel, or a cart and the wheel was lying flat with a pole sticking out the centre... great I thought, must be a new washing line (like i have seen already) - so I connected the pole with vine and hung my lion clothes out to dry! Point is, it would take almost a 'vision' for someone to realise in the 1950s to 1970s, that patterns, evolved with more more than p/k/b until modern technology, openess and sharing, walls and barriers coming down (plus the odd light bulb moment) allowed someone to gather evidence to the contary when they finally went "a-ha... I wonder"!
Anyway, thats my take on things and why I argue against certain issues. I just dont want anyone to think I dislike a certain person or art, because I hold the pioneers and masters in great respect, I just see things differently, as 'our time' allows me to do so.
Stuart
Ps. there is also evidence to support that those since 1901 kata/patterns are used as a mass training system for large groups, originally, before Itsou introduced them to the schools of okinawa, kata were a more personal thing. One instructor would teach one or two students his kata, they would then amend and change the kata to suit their fighting style etc. etc. Uniformed group practice is another area that has travelled across, when in fact, this wasnt the original intention either - but again, many do not know this and thus it continued as the 'way it was meant to be'
PPs. If we kept to the doctrines of people on the premise that they are a high authority and thus know better, we would still believe the earth was flat and that babies should sleep on their fronts to avoid cot deaths (and old and new example of why it is good to question)
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