The Taeguek Cipher - Book Review

[Ninjamom]

Only marginally off topic from the direction of drift in this thread:

I have been in contact with the good folks at Red Lion Karate in Red Lion, PA, about using their facilities for a seminar/workshop/practical on boon hae/forms applications some time early next year. So far, it looks like Master Jay Penfil (who applies these sames sorts of analyses to applications in TSD forms) will be on hand to lead one or a few sessions. I need to try to gauge interest so we can estimate what fees might be involved, size space needed, etc.

We have it narrowed down to two possible dates: Fri/Sat Jan 16/17 (this is the MLK Jr Holliday weekend) or Fri/Sat Feb 20/21. For planning purposes, I need to know:
1. Who here is interested in attending/participating?
2. Who would be willing to lead a session? (Stuart? Mr O'Neill? Terry? Others?)
3. What is your 'ideal mix' of guided instruction vs. trial-and-error application?
4. Any other specifics (length, format, group meal, etc) you'd like to suggest the event include (or not).

Please feel free to respond here or PM me. If there is enough interest, I will start a separate thread for planning this event.

 

[StuartA]

Jang Kwon is the Korean name for Chang Quan, the northern Chinese "Long Fist" form.

Ah! Why didnt ya say so

Here ya go Dan...

http://67akce.free.fr/videoKF/er duan chang quan.jpg

 

[StuartA]

Jang Kwon is the Korean name for Chang Quan, the northern Chinese "Long Fist" form. There are a lot of different versions of it about, but it is generally considered to be descended from Taizu Long Fist. It is incorporated into the syllabus of kwans in Yoon Pyung In's lineage (YMCA Kwon Bop Bu, Chang Moo Kwan, Kang Duk Won) and - allegedly - into that of Hwang Kee's Moo Duk Kwan, although there seems to be relatively little evidence that it was ever really part of MDK training.

Simon - RESPECT - you have done some serious research!

Dan, I assume you are aware that Stuart beat me to the mark by some considerable time regarding publishing a book on practical TKD pattern applications (see his website). His is concerned with the Chang Hon (ITF) set, and is highly recommendable.

Thank you brother!

Stuart

 

[StuartA]

Only marginally off topic from the direction of drift in this thread:

I have been in contact with the good folks at Red Lion Karate in Red Lion, PA, about using their facilities for a seminar/workshop/practical on boon hae/forms applications some time early next year. So far, it looks like Master Jay Penfil (who applies these sames sorts of analyses to applications in TSD forms) will be on hand to lead one or a few sessions. I need to try to gauge interest so we can estimate what fees might be involved, size space needed, etc.

We have it narrowed down to two possible dates: Fri/Sat Jan 16/17 (this is the MLK Jr Holliday weekend) or Fri/Sat Feb 20/21. For planning purposes, I need to know:
1. Who here is interested in attending/participating?
2. Who would be willing to lead a session? (Stuart? Mr O'Neill? Terry? Others?)
3. What is your 'ideal mix' of guided instruction vs. trial-and-error application?
4. Any other specifics (length, format, group meal, etc) you'd like to suggest the event include (or not).

Please feel free to respond here or PM me. If there is enough interest, I will start a separate thread for planning this event.

You know Im from the UK right?

1. Would do
2. If you wanna cover flights and accomadation, Im up for it!
3. Whatever the teachers/students. Im happy to teach and also haoppy to learn off al
4. Hey.. love dinner.. chinese, greek, italian.. choice is yours

Let me know,

Stuart

 

[Dan Anderson]

Stuart,

Sorry but that is not the form I'm looking for. Look at this footage;

The following is a link to a video of Grandmaster Kim Soo and Master Sean Kim (his son) demonstrating the Chuan-fa form Jang Kwon in 1992. Jang Kwon can be practiced separately as 2 individual forms, or can be practiced as a 2-person form (as demonstrated in this video): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcEYR...eature=related

You'll notice that from the ready position:
Move 1. Right step forward into cat stance, double "monkey paw" hook
Move 2. Draw left foot to right foot, double hammerfist strikes
Move 3. Right step (to right) to form left back stance, left down block...

THIS is the form I'm looking for. For the longest time I thought my former instructor made it up and then I saw the link to YouTube and viola! It was a real form. I'll keep looking.

Dan

 

[YoungMan]

Yes... lets.

Terry - can you put the applications (not the attacks) in the writtern text book in English.

Simon - Can you list any apps to the moves you have in your book + any other thoughts

Kwanjang, Youngman, Exile, Bluekey88 + everyone else, please have a look and give any apps you have been taught.

I went through the ITF Encys last night, and the KKW web site just now, so will shortly list stuff - please see http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=68512 for further info.

In the meantime, Ill start compiling all the info ready to post.

thanks,

Stuart

As I don't practice the Taegeuks, I'm not in a position to say what they are accomplishing. I do the Palgue and Koryo forms

 

[terryl965]

As I don't practice the Taegeuks, I'm not in a position to say what they are accomplishing. I do the Palgue and Koryo forms

Then lets also compare the Palgues and Koryo, ask away with some techs.

 

[tko4u]

I see a lot of arguing here. In the end, I believe the taegueks are on the kukkiwon website, there they are done as they are meant to be done. Im not sure why everyone is arguing. Maybe spend more time practicing form and less time arguing about them. After all, practice makes you perfect.

 

[exile]

I see a lot of arguing here. In the end, I believe the taegueks are on the kukkiwon website, there they are done as they are meant to be done. Im not sure why everyone is arguing. Maybe spend more time practicing form and less time arguing about them. After all, practice makes you perfect.

First of all: people are discussing and debating. Which is the point of a discussion board, and which is how ideas get to compete so that the best of them get sorted out. What's wrong with arguing? If there are competing analyses and solutions, how are we going to establish which hold water and which don't without arguing?

Second: 'meant to be done' by whom? By people who are applying a literal punch/block/kick interpretation, or people who put together a set of fighting sequences disguised, as a matter of long tradition starting with Itosu, as punches, blocks and kicks? The claim is that there are valuable techniques to be obtained by decoding TKD hyungs in this way. If there are less effective obvious applications, and more effective concealed applications, what does it matter if people who were unaware of the latter intended for us to do the former?

Third: when you say 'practicing', I get the distinct impression you mean 'performing', not studying. Not extracting the combat applications, not training those applications under pressure. What is the point of memorizing a bunch of mathematical calculations so you can write them down perfectly every time from memory, if you have no idea of what the mathematics is about, how the calculation is being carried out, or what the answer means?

Fourth: practice doesn't make perfect if you're not practicing correctly. The people who are involved in this discussion are trying to establish just what it is that needs to be practiced, which is the point of the various analyses that are under discussion.

Take a look at the actual book that's being discussed, or at the thread here, and you'll have a better idea of what is at issue, I think. Before you can learn to do something, you need to have a clear idea of just what it is you're doing, and what the point of it is, eh?

 

[StuartA]

As I don't practice the Taegeuks, I'm not in a position to say what they are accomplishing. I do the Palgue and Koryo forms

Oh! Thought you did! Anyways, no matter, neither do I... just have a look at the examples and see if theres any similar moves/combinatiions in the forms you do and let us know what your taught for them.

Stuart

 

[MasL]

Deleted: posted in wrong thread

 

[SJON]

Oh! Thought you did! Anyways, no matter, neither do I... just have a look at the examples and see if theres any similar moves/combinatiions in the forms you do and let us know what your taught for them.
Stuart

The consecutive rising forearms can be found in Palgwe 3, and the knifehand-spearhand combination can be found in Palgwe 8, although in both the following move is different from in the Taegeuks.

 

[YoungMan]

I can't tell you how many times I've seen people deliver this palm block-spear hand combo to chest level, where the spear hand would contact the sternum. They apparently want their fingers broken.

 

[bluekey88]

We've always trained it to aim downwards towards teh abdomen or groin...possibly even the inner thigh area. It's a risky maneauver that needs to go towards soft targets (throat, eyes, groin, etc.)

Peace,
Erik

 

[FearlessFreep]

FF, you thinking is too confined..

I just wanted to let you know that I hadn't stopped thinking about this. Yes, my thinking was... confined... intentionally, based on some separate thoughts I'd been having for awhile but I realized I sorta hoped midway into the discussion from my a certain direction if my own. Yes, my thinking was 'confined' in this example, but for a certain reason of my own. but I thank you for your comments and illustrations and just wanted to let you know that they were very helpful and that my lack of reply wasn't meant to indicate disagreement or anything negative about the exchange

 

[StuartA]

I can't tell you how many times I've seen people deliver this palm block-spear hand combo to chest level, where the spear hand would contact the sternum. They apparently want their fingers broken.

This is what we are talking about.. Im not sure about the forms you do, but most others with this movement teach it as you describe (albiet solar plexus as opposed to chest which is still a hard target to hit int he heat of conflict).. are you refering to the incorrect targetting (ie chest rather than solar plexus) or the whole application as a strike itself?

Thanks for the input,

Stuart

 

[StuartA]

No worries my friend, I take it you dont want to elaborate on this reason?

Eitherway, your input is valuable and Im glad your considering and looking at things and posting.

Stuart

I just wanted to let you know that I hadn't stopped thinking about this. Yes, my thinking was... confined... intentionally, based on some separate thoughts I'd been having for awhile but I realized I sorta hoped midway into the discussion from my a certain direction if my own. Yes, my thinking was 'confined' in this example, but for a certain reason of my own. but I thank you for your comments and illustrations and just wanted to let you know that they were very helpful and that my lack of reply wasn't meant to indicate disagreement or anything negative about the exchange

 

[Dan Anderson]

I can't tell you how many times I've seen people deliver this palm block-spear hand combo to chest level, where the spear hand would contact the sternum. They apparently want their fingers broken.

Think of it as a parry down and the spear hand cross body's the chest for a balance break into a throw. Works beautifully.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[exile]

Think of it as a parry down and the spear hand cross body's the chest for a balance break into a throw. Works beautifully.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

I think this is similar or related to the application I alluded to before, where the palm, not the fingers, is the impact surface.

 

[StuartA]

I think this is similar or related to the application I alluded to before, where the palm, not the fingers, is the impact surface.

Mine to, as mines a throw :uhyeah: