The Sword in Hapkido

[iron_ox]

Greetings

Kevin don't you know B.S. when you hear it?

Myung's published Hapkido history is a joke, he also says he considers Choi his teacher, yet all his high dan ranks are from Ji Han Jae and a a young instructor he was part of Ji's Sung Mu Kwan.

Where's his rank directly from Choi???

Lets get real!!!

:flame:

Hello Stuart,

I hear the crickets chirping..... :ultracool

 

[shesulsa]

Moderator's note:

Please keep the conversation polite and respectful.

Georgia Ketchmark
MT Moderator

 

[American HKD]

Dear Stuart:

".....Myung's published Hapkido history is a joke, he also says he considers Choi his teacher, yet all his high dan ranks are from Ji Han Jae and a a young instructor he was part of Ji's Sung Mu Kwan...."

But that is why I used that particular example, yes? One can say the same of the breathing (dan jeon breathing), the cane, the stick, the uniform, use of ranks--- pretty much whatever area one wants to grab the Hapkido arts. And I have not even brought up the wide variance between the Kwon Bup, the Ship Pal Gwe, The Kuk Sool Won, the Hwa Rang Do, the Han Pul etc etc regarding the forms that they do and why all of them are different from each other. Even the sword form BON KUK GUM BUP has no less than 6 variations that I have found to date and thats something of a standard by which other material is measured. And thats what brings us back around to the manner in which the term "Hapkido" is used or interpreted. So far my Lifes' experience with Hapkido suggests that the interpretation needs to be global, but the practice needs to be traditional and that is the Path I follow. Other peoples mileage may vary......

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Bruce,

You commented that Choi somehow approved HS Myungs material as "True Hapkido Tech" even though the material came from outside of Choi's teachings (Kumdo) Hyungs, MT Hand Hyungs, etc.

All I'm refering to, is where and how can you reconcile your statement as HARD AND FAST FACTS, when as a point of accuracy Myung is known to portray fiction as real facts.

Moreover not to single you out but the same is true with the KSW and HRD people and thier ficticious historys.

I believe Hapkido to be the most histically accurate in it's portrail of where our system came from. Ji Han Jae totally recognizes Choi's connection to a Japanese Yawara system, no mysterious monks or chinese secret influences or secret moutain trainning.

Keeping it real is what I perfer.

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Stuart:

All I can say is that you are preaching to the choir!!

Have you noticed that I take no issue with anything you are saying?
Somewhere along the line we need to start learning from our mistakes.
Let me use myself.

Everybody with any awareness of Hapkido at all know what a penchant I have for documentation and facts. And even with that penchant all one has to say is, "I don't accept that fact or proof". I used my example of the Hyungs because we both know that variance and construction are characteristic if not rife in the Hapkido arts. Every person including myself who has practiced Hapkido has introduced variance to a greater or lesser degree. Every single person. Not one excption that I know of. The rest of it is all rationalization. Just go down the line.

Choi Yong Sul varied from what he learned in Japan BUT he could do that because he started a NEW art.

Ji Han Jae, Kim Moo Woong, Lee Joo Bang, Suh In Hyuk all introduced variance but that was because they introduced a NEW art, yes?

Scads of people introduce variance but thats because they have started a NEW organization or a NEW Kwan. And the conflict is actually very simple:

1,) Person A claims the moral high ground as NOT having varied while

2.) Proving that OTHER people HAVE varied.

There is also a secondary interpretation:

1.) Person A will justify their variance as acceptable while

2.) Demonstarting how another persons' variance CANNOT be justified.

And people would rather play this game over and over again, generation over generation than admit that variance is a part of what we do to grow and that tolerance and acceptance of that variance is necessary to maintain the Hwa. And this continues because people WANT it this way. They WANT the conflict. They LOOK for the conflict. Its not healthy, or realistic or even rational. It is, however, the way that people want it.

You are preaching to the Choir, Stuart.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Kumbajah]

I believe Hapkido to be the most histically accurate in it's portrail of where our system came from. Ji Han Jae totally recognizes Choi's connection to a Japanese Yawara system, no mysterious monks or chinese secret influences or secret moutain trainning.

Keeping it real is what I perfer.

In all fairness - Taoist Lee and Grandma - not really well documented figures from Ji.

If you are going to "keep it real" - keep it real.

Brian

 

[American HKD]

In all fairness - Taoist Lee and Grandma - not really well documented figures from Ji.

If you are going to "keep it real" - keep it real.

Brian

Brian

I can't account for those influences in Doju Ji life, but there's no reason to doubt him either.

Ji's credability is in tact, he is not known to make up tall tales about his life and his history is quite varifiable.

I had a very close physic friend for many years who was quite influencial in my life, my carreer, my wife, etc. I can't prove to you how those expiriences helped me, never the less they did.

So when Ji say's he was spritually influenced by a old women he called grandma, I must respect that.

He also claims to have learned kicking and staff from a man he called Taoist Lee I also believe that, they are the very tech. you and I practice today.

 

[Master Todd Miller]

variance is a part of what we do to grow and that tolerance and acceptance of that variance is necessary to maintain the Hwa.

Variance is fine, the problem I have is when those that decide to vary from what they originally learned had very little training with the Founder Choi, Yong Sul!

Tolerance is a good thing but there is also a time when we should not tolerate lies and unethical behavior.


Harmony is there for those that choose it for their lives. This does not mean that one has to agree with every single line of bull that is thrown into the Hapkido world!

 

[American HKD]

Dear Stuart:

All I can say is that you are preaching to the choir!!

Have you noticed that I take no issue with anything you are saying?
Somewhere along the line we need to start learning from our mistakes.
Let me use myself.

Everybody with any awareness of Hapkido at all know what a penchant I have for documentation and facts. And even with that penchant all one has to say is, "I don't accept that fact or proof". I used my example of the Hyungs because we both know that variance and construction are characteristic if not rife in the Hapkido arts. Every person including myself who has practiced Hapkido has introduced variance to a greater or lesser degree. Every single person. Not one excption that I know of. The rest of it is all rationalization. Just go down the line.

Choi Yong Sul varied from what he learned in Japan BUT he could do that because he started a NEW art.

Ji Han Jae, Kim Moo Woong, Lee Joo Bang, Suh In Hyuk all introduced variance but that was because they introduced a NEW art, yes?

Scads of people introduce variance but thats because they have started a NEW organization or a NEW Kwan. And the conflict is actually very simple:

1,) Person A claims the moral high ground as NOT having varied while

2.) Proving that OTHER people HAVE varied.

There is also a secondary interpretation:

1.) Person A will justify their variance as acceptable while

2.) Demonstarting how another persons' variance CANNOT be justified.

And people would rather play this game over and over again, generation over generation than admit that variance is a part of what we do to grow and that tolerance and acceptance of that variance is necessary to maintain the Hwa. And this continues because people WANT it this way. They WANT the conflict. They LOOK for the conflict. Its not healthy, or realistic or even rational. It is, however, the way that people want it.

You are preaching to the Choir, Stuart.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

I guess your right about playing the same game over and over again.

I suppose everyone is going to have thier own little piece of the Hapkido pie no matter what.

If I understand you correctly your saying is we should (Respect any and all view points about HKD no matter how far off base they may be)

Don't you think that liberal approach may be doing a grave dis-service to Hapkido and the founders?

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Stuart:

".....If I understand you correctly your saying is we should (Respect any and all view points about HKD no matter how far off base they may be)

Don't you think that liberal approach may be doing a grave dis-service to Hapkido and the founders?...."

In a word "no", because its not WHAT we are doing, its the WAY that we are doing it, that makes the difference. Please let me take your statesments cited above one at a time.

"....If I understand you correctly your saying is we should (Respect any and all view points about HKD no matter how far off base they may be)....."

No. What I am saying is quit pretending that there is some one single right way and then tout that way as THE way and bang on everyone else who doesn't do it THAT way. Quit pretending that each and every person who has lead in Hapkido adhered to some absolute, inviolate curriculum. There is simply no evidence for it. Certainly there will be fringe elements who want to add too much variance and they will find themselves marginalized by most practitioners who are within a general range. These will be people who want to mix in this and that but still call what they do "Hapkido". The rest of the Hapkido population will remain within a range of material with some variance.

".....Don't you think that liberal approach may be doing a grave dis-service to Hapkido and the founders?...."

But that is exactly my point. I didn't introduce this concept. If you look at every single person including Choi himself-- both before Choi and after Choi--- the behavior has always been to allow for variance. We TALK about NOT having variance--- and we beat-up on people who suggest variance-- but in actual practice each practitioner introduces variance. Some people merge curriculum when they join an organization. Some people actually drop their own (or greatly reduce) curriculum when they move to another teacher. The variance is ther and lets not pretend it isn't is all I'm saying. Where we go off the deep end is when someone does not learn the original material themselves and right away starts mixing and matching material--- but still calling it Hapkido. Different situation. ICHF is probably the best example of this over time.

Now our past leaders have given us some things to work on. For some of our teachers there is inclusion of Taoist breathing, swordwork, sticks, rope and MT Hand. Some people have some, all or none of these. What is given into our hands to make better, we make better. If Hapkido for your teacher or your kwan or your organization is "building kid's swing sets" then you search to identify the best possible approach for turning out the best possible swing-sets, yes?

In my own case Dojunim Kim says "I teach what Dojunim Choi taught me." Thats it. Thats what he does. That and "wear your uniform everyday." That and "each attack is a problem to be solved". The Kwan I belong to (Yon Mu Kwan) tells me I am mandated to polish each of these things I have just reported using the Four Pillars. And this is Hapkido for me. Not for Choi. Not for Ji. Not for Rosenberg. For me. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[American HKD]

Dear Stuart:

".....If I understand you correctly your saying is we should (Respect any and all view points about HKD no matter how far off base they may be)

Don't you think that liberal approach may be doing a grave dis-service to Hapkido and the founders?...."

In a word "no", because its not WHAT we are doing, its the WAY that we are doing it, that makes the difference. Please let me take your statesments cited above one at a time.

"....If I understand you correctly your saying is we should (Respect any and all view points about HKD no matter how far off base they may be)....."

No. What I am saying is quit pretending that there is some one single right way and then tout that way as THE way and bang on everyone else who doesn't do it THAT way. Quit pretending that each and every person who has lead in Hapkido adhered to some absolute, inviolate curriculum. There is simply no evidence for it. Certainly there will be fringe elements who want to add too much variance and they will find themselves marginalized by most practitioners who are within a general range. These will be people who want to mix in this and that but still call what they do "Hapkido". The rest of the Hapkido population will remain within a range of material with some variance.

".....Don't you think that liberal approach may be doing a grave dis-service to Hapkido and the founders?...."

But that is exactly my point. I didn't introduce this concept. If you look at every single person including Choi himself-- both before Choi and after Choi--- the behavior has always been to allow for variance. We TALK about NOT having variance--- and we beat-up on people who suggest variance-- but in actual practice each practitioner introduces variance. Some people merge curriculum when they join an organization. Some people actually drop their own (or greatly reduce) curriculum when they move to another teacher. The variance is ther and lets not pretend it isn't is all I'm saying. Where we go off the deep end is when someone does not learn the original material themselves and right away starts mixing and matching material--- but still calling it Hapkido. Different situation. ICHF is probably the best example of this over time.

Now our past leaders have given us some things to work on. For some of our teachers there is inclusion of Taoist breathing, swordwork, sticks, rope and MT Hand. Some people have some, all or none of these. What is given into our hands to make better, we make better. If Hapkido for your teacher or your kwan or your organization is "building kid's swing sets" then you search to identify the best possible approach for turning out the best possible swing-sets, yes?

In my own case Dojunim Kim says "I teach what Dojunim Choi taught me." Thats it. Thats what he does. That and "wear your uniform everyday." That and "each attack is a problem to be solved". The Kwan I belong to (Yon Mu Kwan) tells me I am mandated to polish each of these things I have just reported using the Four Pillars. And this is Hapkido for me. Not for Choi. Not for Ji. Not for Rosenberg. For me. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Greetings

I can agree with variances such as the differences between,

Sin Moo, Yon Moo Kwan, Jung Ki kwan, Jin Pal, WHA, KHF Kwans, and other along those lines, because in actuallity we are from the same source with only minor differences.

The far out systems that allow for any such deviations that actually alters the Art into some else or major deviations that become unrecognizable as HKD is beyong my tolerance level.

Back to the sword ideas which started this divergence.

What would be acceptable sword tech in Hapkido, I don't personally know?

 

[glad2bhere]

As far as I can see we already have it, except that some people do more of it than others. Some people don't do any swordwork whatsoever. Some use a juk-to and some a muk-kum. others have moved to jin gum and still others have moved that up to yet other edged weapons. Personally I think the conflict comes in when somebody Z rank or status finds themselves in the presence of an individual of "lesser status" who knows more. Intellectually its not suppose to be like that, but often turns out that way. But rather than say "hhhmmm thats a productive contribution to the art" the usual response is "oh that stuff is unnecessary crap" or "not too worry about that because GM "F" never taught that".

Now if we slipped from the philosophical to the concrete, I would lay Korean sword out in this fashion.

12 cuts

12 parries

8 stances

8 kinds of footwork

8 One-man Forms

8 Two-man Forms

8 Kinds of Cutting

One-step Engagement. All this is done with a Ye-do. After that you are on to the other four sword architectures.

Taken as a separate art you are looking at 2nd BB in about 5 years and every bit of it relates directly to everything the typical Hapkido person learns in MT Hand. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Paul B]

Just a thought to add..

For all of you that had an involuntary twitch when you read 2nd BB in 5 yrs. .........Breath.......

When learning the sword as a separate art,it needs to be said that it is not really comparable to a typical MT hand class. It is grueling,sadistic(lol) and extremely frustrating,as there is literally zero margin for error. As a necessary result,training is repetitious and microscopically detailed to say the least. Most people don't like learning a traditional sword system for these very reasons.

I wonder how many people would really appreciate an introduction of such swordwork into their Hapkido? *just to play the devil's advocate*:lookie:

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Paul:

"......For all of you that had an involuntary twitch when you read 2nd BB in 5 yrs. .........Breath........."

Not to diminish your comment in any way. I just want to say something here.
In the Hapkido arts, what goes on in the schools and the Kwans is just a start and I think this piece gets lost a lot of the time. Going to a class and doing what the teacher says gives you an opportunity to get something going with yourself. In my own case I could have stopped with the sword GM Myung taught me. Nobody said I had to go farther. Myung got my feet pointed in a direction, but I was the one who elected to keep walking. Different people are attracted to different things. We are talking about sword here and thats a passion of mine. Were we talking about cane or stick or staff I bet other people would chime in and I would probably be less interested. Its the same with Hapkido groundwork. Hapkido HAS groundwork. Its a handful of techniques and little more. If a person finds this interesting maybe they do more with it on their own but thats on them. Hapkido gives the basic introduction and the individual builds from there.

So, if we have Hapkido providing basic Kum-Bup, thats fine. For me I think we need more of it, but as it stands there is a basic introduction to how to hold the sword, move with it and maybe even cut something.Hapkido shows us the door, and how to open it, maybe even holds our hand as we walk through it. From that point on how far we take it and in what direction is up to us, yes? FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[ajs1976]

Hapkido HAS groundwork. Its a handful of techniques and little more. If a person finds this interesting maybe they do more with it on their own but thats on them. Hapkido gives the basic introduction and the individual builds from there.

If a person starts exploring their interests deeper then what hapkido presents, at what point does it start corrupting their hapkido? Or is this only a concern when someone starts teaching these new methods / techniques as Hapkido?

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Andy:

Here's how I make that distinction.

a.) What my teacher passes to me is the art of Hapkido

b.) What I do with this is "my Hapkido".

Now I am standing at a crossroads.

I can a.) teach only what my teacher taught me. This is the safe Path. I can always use 'well, thats what I was taught" to explain any questions someone might pose.

I can b.) teach "my Hapkido" and include the variances. Arguably this is the tougher Path because everybody with a belly-button is going to make me justify this decision 9-ways from Sunday.

This is where most of the chaos in the Hapkido community comes from. People introduce variance to what they were taught and either criticize other people for doing the same thing (while justifying their own behavior) or DON'T introduce change and criticize others for introducing change.

For me, the process is relatively simple. I teach what my teacher taught me, and then I build on that. Its what I have been told to do and its what I do. The ONLY difference is that before a person starts "adding" or "building" they need to decide that Hapkido is the center-structure of what they want. Don't take bits of Hapkido, Judo, Aikido and Karate, whip them together and still call it Hapkido. In my case, Hapkido has sword. I teach more sword than my teacher taught me. For someone like, say, Bong Soo Han, he teaches Hapkido but he puts more emphasis on the kicking than most people and Choi ever did. For Jeff Allen, he practices Hapkido but he puts more emphasis on an Aikido-like approach (just using an example--- I really don't know exactly what Jeff does; I'm just trying to make a point.) Do all of these examples still abide by the Three Pillars? Do they share common ancestry? Do they share an overall approach to accomplishing a goal? THIS IS WHY I keep making such a thing about looking at Hapkido the way it IS and not the way we would like it to be! This is why I think we are better served by looking at how we are the same rather than beating on each other for our differences. This is no different than any other martial art in the world. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[howard]

Hi Paul,

...training is repetitious and microscopically detailed to say the least. Most people don't like learning a traditional sword system for these very reasons...*:lookie:

Most also don't like hapkido training for these very reasons. :lookie:

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Howard:

And you may not realize it but you are speaking to the heart of the matter.

Hapkido is what it is.

Its hard work. Its no frills. Just like Buddhism people are constantly trying to make the Hapkido arts "prettier", softer, more appealing or just "something else" because in its natural practice it is a nasty, tough way to live ones' life that can produce nasty tough results. Most of us will never have to see this side of it, so we practice the art over and over again for the results it has on developing our character rather than our fighting skills. However, this is the RESULT of the art and not the art itself. The art itself is what it is and people want to repackage it to make it more saleable, desireable or more appropriate in modern society.

Now--- after you strip away all the dewey-eyed hero-worship, the exotic talk of "Ki developement", rank and standing, organizations, political wrangling and revenue generation, you are STILL going to have to face the fact that Hapkido is a rough, no frills, tough and nasty way to live ones' life that produces tough and nasty results. And all the nunchukas, Japanese terminology, fancy uniforms and political affiliation are not going to change that. Hapkido is NOT for everybody and thats just the plain facts. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[American HKD]

Greetings,

Bruce how come your making some sense in your last couple of posts, are you taking some new vitamins?

I agree with some important facts Bruce laid out,

1. Hapkido has very good foundational material (ground included) what each person wants to do with it is up to them (i.e. specialize).

Example: BJJ took exisiting Judo material and expanded on it, however they unfortunatly left out other aspects of MA in doing so.

2. Hapkido has Baisic sword skills, how far do you want to take them is up to you.

For me so far I elected not to do much sword work and perfer sticks, staffs, and canes.

We are lucky to train in a very compete system and I believe it's all there for the taking.

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Stuart:

Up until just a little while ago I was making a very strong effort to make sure people would "understand". The more I was told they didn't understand the harder I worked to explain myself. It got into a vicious cycle. I would explain, and they would say they didn't understand. So I would explain harder and they would indicate more strenuously that they didn't understand etc etc etc. I guess I have fallen under the spell of the Lenten Season and Given-up explaining myself for Lent.

The Hapkido arts are going to stand or fall apart on their own merit. People are going to understand or not understand based on their own motives, goals and abilities. Its not that I don't care. Its just that Life is too short. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Paul B]

Hi Paul,


Most also don't like hapkido training for these very reasons. :lookie:

LOL!...I was thinking "Now somebody's going to say this about Hapkido,too"as I typed it. I would also add a qualifier...*at a good Dojang*

Good stuff all around. We have a choice to go forward and dig deeper or stay with a smattering of techniques,sounds about right. Thanks guys.