The Sword in Hapkido

[glad2bhere]

"......By the way,Bruce...who do you train with from the ASU...."

I didn't know that I did. Is there someone I am training with who is part of the ASU?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Paul B]

My mistake.."The Saotome folks where I teach...."

Tricky thing, that reading comp....

 

[glad2bhere]

Not to worry....

But it did give me time to reflect on your Ona Ha Itto Ryu thought.

The part about Choi I have been saying for a while. But there is another piece that is a bit more subtle----- kind of a "what if" question.

Lets say that Choi actually learned every single thing that Takeda had to offer. Then lets say that Choi turns around in Korea and teaches EVERYTHING that he learned from Takeda, so that learning from Takeda would be like learning from Choi and vice versa. With me so far?

Question: If Choi teaches the identical thing as Takeda, why would I want to learn from Choi when I could get the info directly from Takeda? Do you know what I mean? In my case, for instance, I am enamoured of the Korean culture. I study Korean martial arts because it reflects a way of looking at the world that synchs with me. So why would I want to learn Japanese material taught with a Korean flavor. Why not just learn the Japanese stuff? See what I mean? Ji and Kim and a lot of other people were doing what Koreans do best--- they endure; they overcome; they improvise. The fact is that Choi didn't teach what was identical to Takeda. We don't know what he taught. But like any good evolutionary model Chois' stuff was different enough to allow for survival, and Kim and Ji after him, and Myung and Myong after them and so forth. So..... getting back to swordwork. If Choi learned OHIR from Takeda and taught the same to his students why wouldn't we just go to Japan and learn OHIR directly from the Japanese? After all it IS their art, right?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Kumbajah]

Not to worry....

If Choi teaches the identical thing as Takeda, why would I want to learn from Choi when I could get the info directly from Takeda?

Maybe just location. More Hapkido Dojangs then DRAJJ.

So why would I want to learn Japanese material taught with a Korean flavor. Why not just learn the Japanese stuff?

Hey - That attitude will put alot of TKD out of dojangs out of Business.

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Brian:

"....Maybe just location. More Hapkido Dojangs then DRAJJ...."

Ah, but then what is it that we are really dealing with? If its a matter of location then what is being bought and sold is not authenticity but convenience, yes? For instance, what does it matter if I learn Chinese Kwan Dao, or the MYTBTJ "Wol-Do" material, right? And what about the sword stuff we are talking about? Does it really matter if the HDGD sword is a construction after 1963? Does it matter if I teach, say, Obata's SHINKENDO but tell all my students that its some exotic Korean Sword material? And how about the very popular ground-fighting that BJJ has to offer today? What if I start trickling a bit of BJJ into my YMK Hapkido a bit at a time and make like YMK Hapkido had it all along, right? If Choi did not teach exactly what he learned in Japan why do "I" have to teach exactly what MY teacher taught me? And do my students owe me anything in teaching ONLY what I teach them? Ya see my point? People are talking about consistency in a system characterized by variance. what is the practitioners' responsiblity--- to manage consistency, manage variance, keep my variance consistent or allow my consistency to vary!! :idunno: :idunno: :idunno: :mp5: :idunno:

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Kumbajah]

This is why I mark to start of Hapkido with Ji. He took Choi's Yawara and added the different kicks, curved canes etc. If Choi taught exactly what he learned and Ji taught exactly what he learned from Choi I would call the art Choi Ryu AJJ or something similar.

Arts evolve I may learn everything that you have to teach but may favor one aspect. If I start to teach my instruction will be differently emphasized. Without evolution there would be no gun defense, no defense against western boxing etc. So in my mind the evolution doesn't comes from adding the flavor of week MA but learning to defend against the flavor of the week.

BJJ as an example - many more people are studying the art. Do you have to learn it? Maybe maybe not - but you do need to be familiar with the methodology so that you can defend against it. Ji's hapkido came into development when there were a lot Judoka so there is a lot defenses against the Judo grips and techniques. It still is based on the Hapki principles but using those principles to address the common threat. If caporea becomes the rage you will have to learn to defend against it. They come at weird angles. Not to say that your traditional training might be enough to pull you through but it would be prudent in my mind to at least have a couple of those kicks thrown at you in the dojang first.

So to bring this back to the thread topic - this is where sword fits into hapkido. Being able to address the threat.

2¢

B

 

[American HKD]

Greetings,

My opinion is that if Choi didn't teach sword is because is was an irrelevant and out dated weapon by the time he learned from Takada, or or he simply didn't know it.

Kumdo seems like a good sword art nice forms, cutting practice, etc. to compliment Hapkido.

For me I rather practice just tech. rather than forms, sort of like you'd get in the Ninjitsu schools, but I'll agree HKD could use some more sword material for those who want to do it.

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Stuart:

".....For me I rather practice just tech. rather than forms, sort of like you'd get in the Ninjitsu schools, but I'll agree HKD could use some more sword material for those who want to do it....."

Then, just for fun....and building on your comment......

If we were to expand on the slim pickings in Choi's material to a more formalized sword curriculum--- and WITHIN the Hapkido arts---- what direction would you like to see things added. The reason I am wording it this way is that for the purposes of my question I want to rule out things like Shinkendo as a resource and limit ourselves to more orthodox material.

Would you want to see more Chinese material? More Jian? More Dao?

Would you want to see more Japanese influence? More Kenjutsu? More Kendo?

Would you want to see more spontaneously generated material from Korea itself such as HDGD or ShinKumdo?

Would you want to see an expansion into other sword architectures such as the polearms?

All of the options I have mentioned are already available but we are talking about a very discrete aspect of the Hapkido arts-- the Choi tradition. How would you see expanding sword work regarding this particular Hapkido tradition? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Master Todd Miller]

DJN Choi taught enough sword to relate to empty hand technique. It is my understanding that he prefered the short knife to the sword. It is important to understand that the principles of sword & knife are the same.

Some of DJN Choi's senior students studied sword work more in depth. The simple truth is that DJN Choi just was not as interested in sword work. This takes nothing away from his skill as he knew enough to understand the techniques. Another point to bring is the Jukdo(bamboo) and Mok Kum(wood) are both used very differently. The Judo is used for hitting or tapping & the Mok Kum is used for cutting, slashing or stabbing. When DJN Choi returned to Korea the resources of Korea had been seriously depleted this is probably why he used the Jukdo rather than the Mok Kum. I have seen knife against sword in KMA. The original dan bong that was used was a short Kumdo Jukdo.

My main point is that DJN Choi had a very good understanding of sword, dan bong, cane and the iron scrap(throwing knife).

 

[American HKD]

Dear Stuart:

".....For me I rather practice just tech. rather than forms, sort of like you'd get in the Ninjitsu schools, but I'll agree HKD could use some more sword material for those who want to do it....."

Then, just for fun....and building on your comment......

If we were to expand on the slim pickings in Choi's material to a more formalized sword curriculum--- and WITHIN the Hapkido arts---- what direction would you like to see things added. The reason I am wording it this way is that for the purposes of my question I want to rule out things like Shinkendo as a resource and limit ourselves to more orthodox material.

Would you want to see more Chinese material? More Jian? More Dao?

Would you want to see more Japanese influence? More Kenjutsu? More Kendo?

Would you want to see more spontaneously generated material from Korea itself such as HDGD or ShinKumdo?

Would you want to see an expansion into other sword architectures such as the polearms?

All of the options I have mentioned are already available but we are talking about a very discrete aspect of the Hapkido arts-- the Choi tradition. How would you see expanding sword work regarding this particular Hapkido tradition? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Greetings,

I'm not a sword expert so my opinion would be somewhat limited, I did however study some ninjutsu sword and some HKD sword.

Ninja sword is learning the cuts, blocks, footwork, and then actual application, which is how HKD works with out forms so our arts train in a very similar fashion.

I do think the ninjutsu has more material to offer than HKD and I would like to see this kind of theme expanded on in HKD.

 

[WilliamJ]

".......Also why do you study other sword systems, what's different from the HKD stuff?..."

What would you rather I studied-- BJJ?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Trust me on this, there is no sword work in BJJ. :uhyeah: :jediduel:
You must be thinking of Brazilian Iaido.

 

[American HKD]

Trust me on this, there is no sword work in BJJ. :uhyeah: :jediduel:
You must be thinking of Brazilian Iaido.

Bruce likes to be a wise guy, so talking to him could be quite an expirience.

BTW I'd like BJJ sword material

 

[glad2bhere]

Oh. c'mon...... we could be on to something here.

artyon:

Brazilian Hapkido

artyon:

The quickdraw sword material could include how to deploy a Butterfly Knife from out of your shorts--- just trying to think "outa the box" %-}

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[WilliamJ]

All Brazilian techniques must work for thongs as well as shorts.

 

[shesulsa]

All Brazilian techniques must work for thongs as well as shorts.

:rofl:

 

[American HKD]

Greetings,

Brazilian Hapkido

That would be the worlds best style don't ya think with ninjutsu sword tech.?

 

[iron_ox]

As far as the existence of forms in Hapkido, the Hapkido I train in has forms for MT Hand as well as weapons. Sorry to hear about yours. Choi was presented with these forms by KS Myung and identified them as an acceptable expression of Hapkido training. So I guess everybody who is not using GM Myungs forms needs to make appointments with GM Myung to learn the "real" Hapkido, yes!?!

Line forms to the right, folks.........................

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Can you please enlighten us as to exactly when this "presentation" took place? I am sure that the historians out there would like to have the inclusion of hyung as form training aids documented in a time line.

 

[American HKD]

Greetings

Kevin don't you know B.S. when you hear it?

Myung's published Hapkido history is a joke, he also says he considers Choi his teacher, yet all his high dan ranks are from Ji Han Jae and a a young instructor he was part of Ji's Sung Mu Kwan.

Where's his rank directly from Choi???

Lets get real!!!

:flame:

 

[iron_ox]

Hello Stuart,

In all fairness, Bruce has stated a point of fact. All of us knowing how fastidious he is with documented information, and fortunately for us not the anecdotal kind, I am still very curious.

Since the sign outside my dojang says "Hapkido" I want to ensure that I am teaching the complete art - if hyungs were in fact presented to Dojunim Choi, I want to know when, and at what venue so that I can try to assertain why I have not been taught these important elements. (And why no one outside that particular organization has them either...)

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Stuart:

".....Myung's published Hapkido history is a joke, he also says he considers Choi his teacher, yet all his high dan ranks are from Ji Han Jae and a a young instructor he was part of Ji's Sung Mu Kwan...."

But that is why I used that particular example, yes? One can say the same of the breathing (dan jeon breathing), the cane, the stick, the uniform, use of ranks--- pretty much whatever area one wants to grab the Hapkido arts. And I have not even brought up the wide variance between the Kwon Bup, the Ship Pal Gwe, The Kuk Sool Won, the Hwa Rang Do, the Han Pul etc etc regarding the forms that they do and why all of them are different from each other. Even the sword form BON KUK GUM BUP has no less than 6 variations that I have found to date and thats something of a standard by which other material is measured. And thats what brings us back around to the manner in which the term "Hapkido" is used or interpreted. So far my Lifes' experience with Hapkido suggests that the interpretation needs to be global, but the practice needs to be traditional and that is the Path I follow. Other peoples mileage may vary......

Best Wishes,

Bruce