The stance, Gee Kim Yeung Ma

[APL76]

Nah. You got this part mixed up. Hunter or "Hunschuld" was the guy that said the stance pictured was wrong. And, if I'm correct his primary lineage... the one he trains most deeply, in not in the Yip Man lineage ...although he previously trained Yip Man WC.

Other than that, the drawing above, though imperfect, is pretty much representative of what I've seen in a lot of Yip Man Wing Chun, including my own lineage. The feet are a little wide ...or perhaps the figure's shoulders are too narrow? Oh, and tilting your head back to stick out your chin and expose your throat is kinda dumb... but now I'm just nit-picking. It's just a diagram after all.

As for the rest of what you said, ...yeah, I agree!

I wasn't meaning to suggest that anyone here who is a Yip Man person were all saying it's wrong; rather noting that given that for the majority of Yip Man wing chun, which is from his Hong Kong era, and which forms the overwhelming majority of wing chun taught around the world, they typically see sinking down in the stance with the knees in as wrong. Therefore it would be unsurprising to get that sort of feedback. I should have been clearer.

 

[APL76]

"Sum Nung Hei Gung it was explained to me that it was added training to help balance the negative effects of the stance he used".

While I hesitate to contradict what you were told when you learned the breathing exercises since I, of course, don't know everything, I can tell you with 100% certainty that:

1) (from what I have heard him say, and then translated into English by one of my si hings) Sum Nung said that when you do the stance properly, particularly with the hips tilted forwards properly, it aligns things between the soles of the feet, through the legs to the hips as to encourage the flow of chi and is recommended for general good health. My own sifu, also a Chinese medicine Dr who learned wing chun from Sum Nung though he didn't learn Chinese medicine from him, also stresses that training the stance properly (and good foundation training in general) trains and strengthens the legs and particularly the feet which is recommended for general health and longevity; incidentally, training the breathing exercises properly builds on this in training the legs and feet.

2) What Sum Nung taught my sifu, who then teaches me, re the breathing exercises is that when you train hard you expend chi. (Now I'm repeating this as I understand it from my sifu and I'm no Chinese medicine Dr) There are two primary types of chi, what you are born with and what you can ??? Cultivate? through things like chi gung. If you use-up the chi you were born with you die. Unfortunately when you train hard you use-up chi, so, if you train hard and draw on the chi that you can top-up through chi gung, you never use-up the finite chi you were born with. It is the chi that you can top-up, kidney chi if I'm not mistaken, that you strengthen through the breathing exercises. Anyway, that's my undoubtedly over simplistic explanation of what I was told. In 23 years I have never heard my sifu say that the breathing is to compensate for ill effects of the stance but ALWAYS co compensate for the chi expended when you train hard irrespective of the type of training.

Sum Nung wing chun is explicitly internal and external, we see that you need to be extremely relaxed and everything needs to be natural and fluid however it also requires quite tight structure. This means that you need to contort your body into some pretty difficult shapes to get, and in addition to that, also make them completely relaxed at the same time. On top of all that you need to make them natural and automatic. It all does become completely natural to do but it takes a hell of a lot more training than Yip Man wing chun. All of that is why I generally teach Yip Man wing chun to anyone who comes along and keep the Sum Nung stuff for people who have the dedication and endurance to do it.

 

[APL76]

Just had a conversation with he teacher, and without physically being there I don't think it is clear as to the issue. I did get great advice as to how to relax into the stance, but it is not a relaxation issue, it is, and I hate to say this, a physical limitation issue. My hips can't rotate that far, and too compensate I end up twisting my knees and that is bad, very bad, especially after the knee surgeries.

Pan Nam did something that looked more like horse stance than a wing chun stance.

My sifu showed me a book of Pan Nam wing chun that Pan Nam gave him. In it there are photos of Pan Nam doing his horse stance looking wing chun stance and I pointed at it and said to my sifu "That's not a wing chun stance". My sifu laughed at me and said "Are you going to go and tell him that that's not wing chun? Lots of people have tried and gotten beaten". Point being, if you can get a bit of stability and cover lack of mobility in other ways you can still be good at wing chun. Pan Nam was the big name wing chun fighter in Fat San at one stage, he didn't even do what we would call a typical wing chun stance.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Do you realize that the WC stance is the stance that most wrestlers love to apply their "double legs" on?

You want to bend your legs inward, Your wrestler opponent will help you to bend your legs inward a bit more than you really want to.

So why use that stance and give your wrestler opponent an advantage?

 

[APL76]

Do you realize that the WC stance is the stance that most wrestlers love to apply their "double legs" on?

You want to bend your legs inward, Your wrestler opponent will help you to bend your legs inward a bit more than you really want to.

So why use that stance and give your wrestler opponent an advantage?

If you stand around like that so that a wrestler can grab you by the legs you a) are using it incorrectly and as such 2) probably deserve it.

 

[_Simon_]

Wow, fascinating stance! Our Sanchin dachi/stance was similar, both feet pointing inwards, knees bent a bit, but one foot in front. Yeah not sure about it really.. the emphasised internal hip rotation and pressure on the knees..

But I guess if the muscles supporting the knees and hips are properly engaged and keeping the structure in place (as opposed to it collapsing in and the joints bearing the load) and also that it's not trained excessively... but not sure!

Also modify according to your body and where it's at

P.s. another non-wing chun guy infiltrating!

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Our Sanchin dachi/stance was similar, both feet pointing inwards, knees bent a bit, but one foot in front.

From a wrestler's point of view, do not let your opponent's hand (or leg) to reach to your back leg is important. In order to do so, your back foot need to keep some distance from your front foot.

Of course if you use wide side way stance, your opponent can still get your leading leg. But there are many effective counters to deal with single leg.

We are talking about logic here. It has nothing to do with style.

 

[wckf92]

We are talking about logic here.

As Spock would say..."logic states, we are not going to just stand there in a knock-kneed TRAINING stance as the mean wrestler approaches".

 

[obi_juan_salami]

I think everything is a matter of degrees. I know of only one of Yip Man's 1st gen students who advocated for the "knock knee'd" stance and if I'm not mistaken it was Leung Sheung. Fist-width apart at the knees. OUCH!!!

i think the view that the stance is "knocked kneed" is a steryotype started by people only watching it rather than practicing or just general incorrect practice. doing the stance knock kneed WOULD be horrible for your health. knock kneed being that your knees are forced in sideways or not being the direction the toes are pointing. a correct (by our standards) yee jee kim yeung ma should have the knees bent and sunk down quite low. the toes point in so that the deep bend in the knees is a natural like it would be for running or walking. to do it like this you need to develop flexibility in the hips and strength in the legs, all of which is gain by doing the stance itself. this results in stronger knees rather than injured or deformed ones and faster footwork.

 

[obi_juan_salami]

the knees do come under pressure and its up to the prqctitioner to manage that through the duration you practice it and how deep you sink. but its through that pressure over time the ligaments, tendons and muscles are strengthened.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The YJKYM is to use your shin bone to bite into your opponent's leg. But I have not seen many WC guys use "shin bite" it in fighting. If you don't use YJKYM in fighting, why do you train it?

 

[obi_juan_salami]

The YJKYM is to use your shin bone to bite into your opponent's leg. But I have not seen many WC guys use "shin bite" it in fighting. If you don't use YJKYM in fighting, why do you train it?

we do use it in fighting in many different ways 'shin bite' being one of them. just because its not on the net or you havnt seen it doesnt necessarily mean it doesnt exist

 

[JowGaWolf]

I can't do it.

After discussions with the person I will be training with (and I will be asking him this too), ad repeated looks in the mirror, I realized there is absolutely no way I will ever be able to get into anything close to a proper Gee Kim Yeung Ma

Really, I cannot physically get into this stance. Arthritis in the hips, knees, and prior knee surgeries make is physically impossible for me to get into this stance. It was hard years ago, due to my hips being angled further back than they should be. But now, it is impossible.

How much of an obstacle is this, if you want to pursue Wing Chun

my thoughts on Kung Fu in general is that stances have various degrees of play in them. Different heights, different widths. But they all maintain similar structure and weight distribution, or maybe more accurately similar methods for directing your weight. So regardless of what my stance is, I'm still trying to direct my weight to the same structural points so that it's distributed in my feet the same way. In other words my legs may change but how the weight sinks at my feet stays the same.

In terms of stance in this sense I think it's more about how we direct the weight into our feet than anything else. Even when I stand like a normal person, I can feel my body shift weight, cat, horse, goat, or bow stances. I would be surprised if your teacher wouldn't allow any flexibility in this area.

If this stance was locked in stone then people would be forced to fight in it, never to leave it.

 

[JowGaWolf]

From a wrestler's point of view, do not let your opponent's hand (or leg) to reach to your back leg is important. In order to do so, your back foot need to keep some distance from your front foot.

yep. you and must be brothers in a different life time. You are 100% accurate with this. From the point of body mechanics a person can only retreat as far as the rear foot (without jumping). If that rear foot is in the line of fire then you are in trouble. If anything should be in the safe zone, it should be that rear foot..

I specifically attack the rear lead because of this truth. So many people are willing to put that rear leg in the danger zone.

 

[hunschuld]

Sorry for the delay.

if everyone is saying the stance should be natural then I have no problems.

My point is there is not 'Natural' for wing chun and then natural for everything else.

The most important meridians flow on the inside of the legs. Doing an action that voluntarily inhibits the chi flow along these meridians would be considered a problem to be addressed.

Many versions of wing chun use a square or squarish horse stance. Pan Nam is not alone. You see this is Cho family style,Pao Fa Lien, Kulo and others. Knee squeezing tends to be a Foshan thing

Mobility and keeping your legs from being easily swept are two very important things

Generalizations about Yip Man Wing chun should not be made. He taught many variations. Leung Sheung is different than Wong Shun Leung and he is different than Chu Shong Tin and he is different than Ho Kam Ming and he is different than Yip Ching and he is different that Yip Chun and he is different than Leung Ting and on it goes.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Mobility and keeping your legs from being easily swept are two very important things.

- The inward foot turning can expose your heel to be swept. Your opponent's foot can reach to your heel.

- The outward foot turning can counter the foot sweep. Your opponent's foot cannot reach to your heel.

 

[JowGaWolf]

- The inward foot turning can expose your heel to be swept. Your opponent's foot can reach to your heel.

- The outward foot turning can counter the foot sweep. Your opponent's foot cannot reach to your heel.

For me, forget that you have legs and I will take them, sweep or hook, they will be mine.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

For me, forget that you have legs and I will take them, sweep or hook, they will be mine.

If your feet are

- parallel, I will need to move my back foot side way before I can sweep you.
- inward, I can sweep your heel without moving my back leg side way.
- outward, even if I move my back foot side way, my back foot still cannot reach to your heel.

Anything that you do can be easier for your opponent is bad for yourself.

 

[Callen]

The inward foot turning can expose your heel to be swept. Your opponent's foot can reach to your heel.

Luckily Yee Jee Kim Yeung Ma is not a fighting stance, so there's no real worry of being swept in this instance.

 

[obi_juan_salami]

Luckily Yee Jee Kim Yeung Ma is not a fighting stance, so there's no real worry of being swept in this instance.

we use it in fighting.. i think the main misunderatanding here is a static stance being 'vulnerable'. yes if you dont move you will get swept/taken down. thats why there is foot work, speed/strength training, and heaven forbid techniques! any and every position has vulnerabilities, including this stance. its how diligently you have trained, how well you have prepared and how well you know the principles (so you dont find yourself in the wrong position at the wrong time) and of course the skill of your opponent vs your own that determines your success/defeat.

if you stand still of course anything can happen to you.