chrispillertkd
Senior Master
I mean the concept of "a good reason" is rather subjective, which means that it can be interpreted in a wide variety of ways. Which means it's open to abuse.
No, it just means they are older.
Pax,
Chris
The 'stabless' knife comes to England
- Thread starter Deaf Smith
- Start date
I mean the concept of "a good reason" is rather subjective, which means that it can be interpreted in a wide variety of ways. Which means it's open to abuse.
No, it just means they are older.
Pax,
Chris
chrispillertkd
Senior Master
I realize your country is trying to control what it sees as a widespread problem, but this reads like "Preparedness is a crime." In the U.S. with the history of using weapons one had lying around in the Revolution and the Second Amendment and settling such a large country at times when the nearest lawman might be hundreds of miles away, we tend to view the right to carry in sefl-defense very differently.
celtic_crippler
Senior Master
From my point of view it would be because of what I consider to be common sense:
I'm not "bashing" English law, just trying to shed some light on how many Americans view this topic and why, from our perspective, such laws do more to hinder our safety than not.
- A criminal, by their nature, does not follow the law; therefore, does not heed any law prohibiting the carrying of a weapon.
- A law-abiding citizen, by thier nature, does follow the law and therefore does not carry a weapon when the law prohibits it.
- So, when the unarmed law-abiding citizen is confronted by the armed criminal it puts them at a further disadvantage in terms of being able to protect themselves or a loved one from physical harm or even death.
Like your laws though, excessive force is frowned upon. If you excerpt more force in defending yourself than was deemed reasonable to the event, you can find yourself in a lot of hot water.
I personally would like to thank you for the input and providing the "English Perspective" as otherwise we may not have that benefit. So, please continue to post as I for one, find it very interesting and a valuable learning experience.
You see, you are used to written laws, we are more creative and of course it's open to interpretation but no one defending themselves legitimately has been done here.
Ok, you can carry work knives,pen knives etc axes whatever legally, you can carry cricket bats if you play that sport etc etc so you won't have a shortage of things to put in your vehicle or pocket will you? If you do Krav Maga or watch Bas Rutten's videos you will know there is no shortage of weapons available to you, imagination not petty sarcasm works. Major sarcasm like mine does sometimes
My chief instructor does door work and has never had problems disarming knife carriers threatening him, he broke ones arm the other week and no didn't get charged.
Perhaps we could have a thread covering all the weapons you can find just around you?
celtic_crippler
Senior Master
:uhohh:
I should point out that if you actually kill someone while defending yourself as long as that's reasonable force there's no problem under the law. The CPS takes into account factors such as fear, adrenaline, fear for your family friends etc and what action you took. It basically needs to be reassured that you didn't set out to murder someone coldbloodedly ie invite an enemy round to your house bash his head in and then claim self defence lol.
the perception of crime here is greater than the actual crime, the figures are the lowest ever funnily enough. However the media and the internet highlight every single case and it gets blown out of proportion by the 'talking heads' The majority of people her never need to carry a weapon and the majority will go their whole lives without ever seeing a violent crime.
Laws don't get old here unless they work.
the perception of crime here is greater than the actual crime, the figures are the lowest ever funnily enough. However the media and the internet highlight every single case and it gets blown out of proportion by the 'talking heads' The majority of people her never need to carry a weapon and the majority will go their whole lives without ever seeing a violent crime.
Laws don't get old here unless they work.
FieldDiscipline wrote and gave this link about a murder
It is an interesting story and very telling in the details in my opinion.
　
　
The youths involved with the murder. I notice the age of the youths, The same things go on over here. The age of youths in Florida for instance that are staying on parents health insurance (certain parts of Florida are heavily populated by retirees) has been raised to thirty years old and still classified as minors. The age when demanding personal responsibility is rising and rising while at the same time our youths are being exposed to adult sexual norms at a younger and younger age. We are as a society telling little girls and boys to be adult like in expressions of sexuality at preteen ages while at the same time telling young adults it is ok to be a worthless piece of refuge as it is not their fault and they are special.
I wonder Tez3 out of the nineteen murders you cited above thread. What was the ages of the youths murdered and if the cases were solved what were the ages of those convicted of the crimes. Out of curiosity how many of the murderers were above the age of 16?
　
　
They all admit to being a part of the murder but not being the ‘one’ that did the stabbing, and apparently stuck to their stories. One of the benefits of having tough prison countenancing guidelines is that often violent offenders will bargain to try to avoid them. It is a good tool when you have multiple suspects.
　
　
So at least in this case blaming the knife, the tool of the murder, seems like the very easy way of pointing the blame towards an inanimate object, turning the inanimate object into something evil rather than looking at the society that produced these youths that committed the crime. Could higher and stricter sentencing have saved the young man from being stabbed eleven times? At least one of the murderers would not have been there had he still been serving his time, and according to the link you just provided up thread, he called his two buddies to the scene to have his back. I wonder what the record of the other two youths involved look like. If they knew that they would get life in prison (or worse the death penalty) would they have been so willing to use violence?
I wonder of the opinion of those living over there, is perhaps the violence and the acceptance and excusing of the violence perhaps as much if not more to blame than the tool used to accomplish the violence? We are often having this ongoing debate over here in the States. Europe is very often held up as an example as how to do it 'right', so I find these threads and your thoughts and opinions educational.
Regarding the non-pointy knife as has been stated above thread, nothing new and it can certainly still penetrate beef or pork, just might take a little more force. Those youths willing to beat down another youth and stab him eleven times certainly displayed that they had the will and the means to use such force. The designer and the manufacturers and the media covering this blade are trying to make money off of the fearful who have submitted themseles to obvious fear mongering and manipulation. Questionable morals but hardly illegal and rather clever.
Regarding knife laws, if 'good kids' feel that they need to have a knife on them for protection from 'armed bad 20 year old children' I think that it points out that they think that having a knife on them, risking breaking the law, makes more since than running for the auto and the cricket bat under the seat. This decision to risk breaking the law in order to give them the means of defense is telling.
Regarding knife violence as violence is key to easing the problem over there in my opinion. The violence is a symptom. Whether you blame the youths lack of respect for the laws of the society on pent up frustrations, on lack of opportunity/education, slap on the wrist justice systems, poverty, lack of respect for the lives and property of others, ease of acquiring weapons, drug use or over crowding, they are different than we are cultural excuses, all the above in my opinion are still symptoms of an obvious overlying problem. When we pimp out or sons and daughters, when our children kill merely for the sake of killing, when we as adults turn a blind eye to our own responsibilities and our lack of courage there is a sickness and a weakness highlighted. Having the courage to face that will tell a societies ability for long term survival.
Regards
Brian King
It is an interesting story and very telling in the details in my opinion.
　
　
The youths involved with the murder. I notice the age of the youths, The same things go on over here. The age of youths in Florida for instance that are staying on parents health insurance (certain parts of Florida are heavily populated by retirees) has been raised to thirty years old and still classified as minors. The age when demanding personal responsibility is rising and rising while at the same time our youths are being exposed to adult sexual norms at a younger and younger age. We are as a society telling little girls and boys to be adult like in expressions of sexuality at preteen ages while at the same time telling young adults it is ok to be a worthless piece of refuge as it is not their fault and they are special.
I wonder Tez3 out of the nineteen murders you cited above thread. What was the ages of the youths murdered and if the cases were solved what were the ages of those convicted of the crimes. Out of curiosity how many of the murderers were above the age of 16?
　
　
They all admit to being a part of the murder but not being the ‘one’ that did the stabbing, and apparently stuck to their stories. One of the benefits of having tough prison countenancing guidelines is that often violent offenders will bargain to try to avoid them. It is a good tool when you have multiple suspects.
　
　
So at least in this case blaming the knife, the tool of the murder, seems like the very easy way of pointing the blame towards an inanimate object, turning the inanimate object into something evil rather than looking at the society that produced these youths that committed the crime. Could higher and stricter sentencing have saved the young man from being stabbed eleven times? At least one of the murderers would not have been there had he still been serving his time, and according to the link you just provided up thread, he called his two buddies to the scene to have his back. I wonder what the record of the other two youths involved look like. If they knew that they would get life in prison (or worse the death penalty) would they have been so willing to use violence?
I wonder of the opinion of those living over there, is perhaps the violence and the acceptance and excusing of the violence perhaps as much if not more to blame than the tool used to accomplish the violence? We are often having this ongoing debate over here in the States. Europe is very often held up as an example as how to do it 'right', so I find these threads and your thoughts and opinions educational.
Regarding the non-pointy knife as has been stated above thread, nothing new and it can certainly still penetrate beef or pork, just might take a little more force. Those youths willing to beat down another youth and stab him eleven times certainly displayed that they had the will and the means to use such force. The designer and the manufacturers and the media covering this blade are trying to make money off of the fearful who have submitted themseles to obvious fear mongering and manipulation. Questionable morals but hardly illegal and rather clever.
Regarding knife laws, if 'good kids' feel that they need to have a knife on them for protection from 'armed bad 20 year old children' I think that it points out that they think that having a knife on them, risking breaking the law, makes more since than running for the auto and the cricket bat under the seat. This decision to risk breaking the law in order to give them the means of defense is telling.
Regarding knife violence as violence is key to easing the problem over there in my opinion. The violence is a symptom. Whether you blame the youths lack of respect for the laws of the society on pent up frustrations, on lack of opportunity/education, slap on the wrist justice systems, poverty, lack of respect for the lives and property of others, ease of acquiring weapons, drug use or over crowding, they are different than we are cultural excuses, all the above in my opinion are still symptoms of an obvious overlying problem. When we pimp out or sons and daughters, when our children kill merely for the sake of killing, when we as adults turn a blind eye to our own responsibilities and our lack of courage there is a sickness and a weakness highlighted. Having the courage to face that will tell a societies ability for long term survival.
Regards
Brian King
CoryKS
Senior Master
I wish we could say that. When our laws don't work, we're expected to throw more money at them until they do.
chrispillertkd
Senior Master
Well, I see you havne't totally lost your sense of humor.
Ok, you can carry work knives,pen knives etc axes whatever legally, you can carry cricket bats if you play that sport etc etc so you won't have a shortage of things to put in your vehicle or pocket will you? If you do Krav Maga or watch Bas Rutten's videos you will know there is no shortage of weapons available to you, imagination not petty sarcasm works. Major sarcasm like mine does sometimes
Oh, I've known about makeshift weapons longer than modern MMA has been around. They're just fine as long as you're not up against someone who knows what they're doing woth an actual weapon. But if you think using a bic against a guy armed with a knife, a club or a gun is desireable, let alone going to offer you anything more than a pray of working well, good luck with all that.
It's your own business if your country denies you the right to bear arms. Just glad mine doesn't.
That's great for him. Now if everybody in the entire country was as adept at unarmed defense as he was you'd really have something there. Except for the people who would invariably use their knowledge for ill. In which case you'd be in a worse state than you are now.
I'm sure that would be an interesting thread to read. There are eight things on the table next to me right now that could be used to kill someone and another two that would work as a makeshift defensive weapon. But there's no way in hell I'd put my trust in them or require someone else to do so.
Pax,
Chris
Chris, I don't what you've been reading about our countries but we actually have very little need to be armed. It's all about perception.
Like abortion violent crime brings emotion to the discussion but looked at objectively we don't have such a huge problem as first appears. If I say well 20 kids were murdered by knife attacks in such and such city in one year people will be horrified but loooked at coldly out of a population of a couple of million people 20 isn't very many but what politician or police officer is going to point that out? It sounds cold blooded. Then point out that half of those deaths were drug related and a quarter gang related. It sounds now as if that city has a drug problem and gangs running wild everywhere.
Then look at it historically and you will find our country has never been so peaceful, orderly and have such low crime figures! It's true though, crime is actually at the lowest it's ever been and that includes the times when people were armed.
So whats going on? firstly we do have a problem with a section of youth in this country. The 'glamour' of the American gang scene as seen on films and in music appeals to many young teenagers, we also have homegrown gangs (the soccer 'firms') and the Jamaican ones. Alcohol has been a problem here for centruries, have a look at Hogarths pictures. The big companies have been pushing 'alcopops' onto the market aggressively targetting young people. Pubs and clubs have 'happy hours' and women drink free policies. We've always had a culture of 'get as many drinks down your neck as fast as you can' here. You get drunk, fight, have a curry, throw up, stagger home and that was a grand night! that applies to men and women alike.
Then theres drugs, kids see drug dealers on their patch with new cars, bling and money, they see themselves as unable or unwilling toto get a job and work for money, dealing is so much easier. Maggie Thatcher's government pushed the 'greed is good' message so hard that it's all the kids think about.
The media and the politicians go hand in hand, they all have an agenda they want to push. Murders of children by children make good news headlines so when they happen they are plastered everywhere. Yes they are a huge tragedy, a problem we really need to sort but the politiians use each new murder as something to berate the government with without actually offering any constructive ideas. Each party promises that if the get in crime will fall, an easy promise to make.
There is a big problem with our children killing each other but an all parties committee needs to look at this to find the best ways of dealing with it, to drop all the politics and really look into how to stop this rot. It's not as widespread as many would have us think nor are young people all violent but ther is a problem
It's a mistake I think for Americans who support gun control to point to Europe as being the ideal. We don't share the same history or the same cultural interest or beliefs. Sure many Americans started as Europeans but they quickly and rightly became American and adopted American customs. Another things is that America is enormous with a huge population comapred to the UK and other European countries, always easier to contain crime in a smaller place. some of your cities are bigger than some of Europe's countries lol!
Chris I don't know why you think I'm being amusing when I say no one has been done for defending themselves here as they haven't whatever you seem to think. And why do you think my country denies me the right to bear arms when I can look over my shoulder at my gun cabinet full of weapons? why do you assume that everyone here would want to be armed or in actual fact there is a big need to be armed. Like abortion it's not an issue here, if it were I'm sure there'd be an uproar, the Great British public is never backwards in coming forwards with what it wants. If this country wanted to be armed, it would be, simple as that.
We had a big public campaign recently for Gurkhas rights, the government was forced to change its mind and the law. If British people as a whole wanted to be armed they would say so. Don't make the mistake of thinking we are like you, we barely speak the same language! You may have visited here but you know little about us frankly! We may be 'cousins' but we are foreign cousins!
Oh and we do self defence lol!
Like abortion violent crime brings emotion to the discussion but looked at objectively we don't have such a huge problem as first appears. If I say well 20 kids were murdered by knife attacks in such and such city in one year people will be horrified but loooked at coldly out of a population of a couple of million people 20 isn't very many but what politician or police officer is going to point that out? It sounds cold blooded. Then point out that half of those deaths were drug related and a quarter gang related. It sounds now as if that city has a drug problem and gangs running wild everywhere.
Then look at it historically and you will find our country has never been so peaceful, orderly and have such low crime figures! It's true though, crime is actually at the lowest it's ever been and that includes the times when people were armed.
So whats going on? firstly we do have a problem with a section of youth in this country. The 'glamour' of the American gang scene as seen on films and in music appeals to many young teenagers, we also have homegrown gangs (the soccer 'firms') and the Jamaican ones. Alcohol has been a problem here for centruries, have a look at Hogarths pictures. The big companies have been pushing 'alcopops' onto the market aggressively targetting young people. Pubs and clubs have 'happy hours' and women drink free policies. We've always had a culture of 'get as many drinks down your neck as fast as you can' here. You get drunk, fight, have a curry, throw up, stagger home and that was a grand night! that applies to men and women alike.
Then theres drugs, kids see drug dealers on their patch with new cars, bling and money, they see themselves as unable or unwilling toto get a job and work for money, dealing is so much easier. Maggie Thatcher's government pushed the 'greed is good' message so hard that it's all the kids think about.
The media and the politicians go hand in hand, they all have an agenda they want to push. Murders of children by children make good news headlines so when they happen they are plastered everywhere. Yes they are a huge tragedy, a problem we really need to sort but the politiians use each new murder as something to berate the government with without actually offering any constructive ideas. Each party promises that if the get in crime will fall, an easy promise to make.
There is a big problem with our children killing each other but an all parties committee needs to look at this to find the best ways of dealing with it, to drop all the politics and really look into how to stop this rot. It's not as widespread as many would have us think nor are young people all violent but ther is a problem
It's a mistake I think for Americans who support gun control to point to Europe as being the ideal. We don't share the same history or the same cultural interest or beliefs. Sure many Americans started as Europeans but they quickly and rightly became American and adopted American customs. Another things is that America is enormous with a huge population comapred to the UK and other European countries, always easier to contain crime in a smaller place. some of your cities are bigger than some of Europe's countries lol!
Chris I don't know why you think I'm being amusing when I say no one has been done for defending themselves here as they haven't whatever you seem to think. And why do you think my country denies me the right to bear arms when I can look over my shoulder at my gun cabinet full of weapons? why do you assume that everyone here would want to be armed or in actual fact there is a big need to be armed. Like abortion it's not an issue here, if it were I'm sure there'd be an uproar, the Great British public is never backwards in coming forwards with what it wants. If this country wanted to be armed, it would be, simple as that.
We had a big public campaign recently for Gurkhas rights, the government was forced to change its mind and the law. If British people as a whole wanted to be armed they would say so. Don't make the mistake of thinking we are like you, we barely speak the same language! You may have visited here but you know little about us frankly! We may be 'cousins' but we are foreign cousins!
Oh and we do self defence lol!
OP
OP
Deaf Smith
Master of Arts
Tez3,
What I fear is going to happen in the U.K. is, if the means to defend oneself are banned (like knives and such) then that will include the martial arts.
After all, if it's so bad to carry a knife, then being an expert with ones hands and feet does put most other 'subjects' at a disadvantage.
And it's not like it hasn't happened before. Many a nation has banned weapons and training to keep the population under 'control'.
Deaf
What I fear is going to happen in the U.K. is, if the means to defend oneself are banned (like knives and such) then that will include the martial arts.
After all, if it's so bad to carry a knife, then being an expert with ones hands and feet does put most other 'subjects' at a disadvantage.
And it's not like it hasn't happened before. Many a nation has banned weapons and training to keep the population under 'control'.
Deaf
Carrying a knife specifically as a weapon is banned not the carrying of knives as such. I realise thats probably a rather legalistic answer but it works here. Everyone was in a panic when 'samurai' swords were banned but the martial artists and the collectors haven't been bothered by this as they've foundout, you can still buy the proper swords you want you just can't buy the cheap £25 sets anymore which were flooding the market and causing the problems.
The British people may look like we are docile sometimes but trust me we're not, at the moment MPs are busy resigning and those who aren't are panicking like hell over their expenses befcause we've said enough and they are having to quit. In the end the government knows who's in charge lol and thats us!
Marginal
Senior Master
Where's your point?
Bruno@MT
Senior Master
:lfao:
Excuse me, do you have a CCW license for that spoon?
Just kidding of course. As Tez says, this is not a gov initiative.
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Bruno@MT
Senior Master
Call me silly, but I teach my 4 year old to use a real knife in the kitchen to cut the ends of beans, and cut carrots, etc. She only uses it under our supervision, but I think it is important that she never gets the notion that knives can somehow be safe. They aren't.
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Bruno@MT
Senior Master
While there is no pressing need per se, I always carry a small spyderco delica or swiss army knife. A pocket knife is just a very convenient thing to carry around for opening boxes, removing splinters, removing a staple, opening wraps, cutting a piece of rope, removing thread from clothes, ....
And if you look at the statistics, it's not the small pocket knives that are used in the typical stabbings. It's true that there are no pressing reasons to carry a folding knife, but it's also true that they are no more dangerous than a sharpened pencil, so there is also not real reason -not- to carry them.
EDIT: BTW I would point out that I do NOT carry my folder for self defense. To me it's just a very convenient multi purpose tool.
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Bruno@MT
Senior Master
Now this is a topic I have experience with
(straights, not crime) I have been using and restoring straights for many years.Straights are good for only 2 things apart from shaving obvisouly)
- scaring someone (they look mean)
- scarring / killing someone when they are out or unawares.
They pivot like a folder, but there is no catch to keep them open. They'll flip around in your hand and cut you very bad.
The edge breaks off as soon as they hit anything solid (except for old style wedges).
The scales are flimsy and likely to crack if you exert force on them.
As a weapon, they are about the most ****** things you can think off. They are at least as dangerous to the wielder as to the one being attacked.
Sure, in a crime of passion you can cut up someone really bad with it. After all, it has an edge. But you could do the same with a pair of scissors, or a breadknife, or an icepick, or...
