The 'stabless' knife comes to England

[chrispillertkd]

Guys, most of you are still missing the point here. We aren't talking self defence here, we aren't talking about defending your loved ones in a home invasion. We aren't talking about you at all.
We are talking about the children here who carrying knives every day and kill other children with them.
Thats the problem we have here, it isn't a self defence issue, it's not a civil rights issue, it's about a specific problem we have here with young people and knives.

Being able to defend oneself isn't a matter of civil rights.

Please can you grasp the idea that we aren't talking about reasonable peole being prepared to defend themseves? This is the murder of our children by other children.

If this is the case then why is everyone being banned from carrying a knife? Wouldn't it make much more sense to simply say that it's illegal for a minor to carry one? That doesn't seem to be what is going on, from what I have read in this thread (I could be wrong, however, as I've skipped some of the links).

Pax,

Chris

 

[Tez3]

Being able to defend oneself isn't a matter of civil rights.



If this is the case then why is everyone being banned from carrying a knife? Wouldn't it make much more sense to simply say that it's illegal for a minor to carry one? That doesn't seem to be what is going on, from what I have read in this thread (I could be wrong, however, as I've skipped some of the links).

Pax,

Chris

To be honest I've given up trying to explain whats going on here, people who don't live here can't seem to understand. We ( and the rest of Europe) don't have the American's phobia for self defence and the need for it, other than the kids who carry knives the rest of us don't feel threatened enough to be armed to the teeth all the time.I think it might be a uniquely American thing about being armed (not a criticism btw an observation) but we don't share it. Here is an interesting article explaining our laws (which actually date back to the Fifties) mostly about carrying weapons.
http://www.bushcraftuk.com/index.php/General/UK-Knife-Law-Edged-Tools.html


I said the problem with youths and knives etc isn't a civil rights matter nor is it a self defence matter, it's a criminal matter, as I also said you will not be a target, a child will be.

FD, I think it is a demographic thing, it seems rare in the country and small towns. Diane Abbott said it's also a thing where many children grow up in single parent homes with no man for guidance on how to behave as man, she also said it was primararily a black thing, just as well she says that though! the Inner City poverty is also blamed as is the rise in underage binge drinking.

 

[chrispillertkd]

To be honest I've given up trying to explain whats going on here, people who don't live here can't seem to understand.

Maybe. Then again, maybe not.

We ( and the rest of Europe) don't have the American's phobia for self defence and the need for it,

Thank God we've all gotten past making sweeping generalizations. I mean, how silly would it have been if someone had said that Europeans were simply experiencing the natural result of causing two world wars and ascribing to a crypto-nihilism.

other than the kids who carry knives the rest of us don't feel threatened enough to be armed to the teeth all the time.

Carrying a knife is hardly being armed to the teeth. And no, I don't carry one. Or a gun.

But considering that at least some kids over there are carrying and using knives on their fellow minors I can certainly understand why others would want to be armed.

I think it might be a uniquely American thing about being armed (not a criticism btw an observation) but we don't share it.
Here is an interesting article explaining our laws (which actually date back to the Fifties) mostly about carrying weapons.
http://www.bushcraftuk.com/index.php/General/UK-Knife-Law-Edged-Tools.html

Having the burden of proof put on the citizen and having it depend in many cases on what constitutes a "good reason" is asking for future trouble, IMO. But hey, I'm not the one who has to live with it (I have enough stupid laws over here to navigate).

I said the problem with youths and knives etc isn't a civil rights matter nor is it a self defence matter, it's a criminal matter, as I also said you will not be a target, a child will be.

Except that if one kid attacks someone with a knife and the other person defends himself with a knife he's carrying "for a good reason" then it is a matter of self defense. Sure you can say that will never happen. Except at some point it will, or will at least be used as a defense.

But none of this really answers my question: If this is a phenomenon limited to minors why not just outlaw minors carrying knives?

Pax,

Chris

 

[Tez3]

Our laws on knife carrying are over fifty years old they aren't new and they aren't stupid.

Chris you seem to be making a habit of misconstruing my posts these days.
why shouldn't people be responsible for their own actions? Or do you think that as we have a Socialist government we have no idea of what civic responsibility is?
The kids don't say they stabbed someone in self defence...they don't say anything at all.
I said it wasn't a critisism though you've taken it as one, that americans seem more concerned over carrying weapons than we are. Blaming us for causing two world wars, thats just beyond the pale. As someone who's family were wiped out in the camps should I be blaming them for their horrible demise then?

As I also said.... I give up.

 

[mook jong man]

There's no big deal about the knife laws in the U.K , we have the same knife laws in Australia.

Knives are prohibited for sale to teenagers , and it is illegal for anyone to have a knife on them in a public place without a reasonable excuse like in the pursuit of there lawful occupation etc.

But we still have the problem of teenagers carrying knives to school because they are being bullied or something , and teenagers in gangs stabbing other teenagers in gangs.

With the adults it seems to be binge drinking and shoving schooner glasses into each others faces or fisticuffs after they all spill out onto the street when its closing time at the pub.

 

[chrispillertkd]

Our laws on knife carrying are over fifty years old they aren't new and they aren't stupid.

Well, I suppose everyone's entitled to their own opinions.

Frankly, I think a lot of laws passed in the U.S. are frivilous so kudos to you chaps for not putting any new laws on the books in this area for so long. Of course, that doesn't mean they were well written in the first place (and from what I saw in the link you provided I'd have to say they are not, but that's just me not liking loopholes you can drive a trck through).

Chris you seem to be making a habit of misconstruing my posts these days.

Quite the contrary, actually.

why shouldn't people be responsible for their own actions? Or do you think that as we have a Socialist government we have no idea of what civic responsibility is?

I'm all for personal responsibility. Whether or not a socialist government promotes that (or even can) is a legitimate question. I think it certainly is working at a disadvantage, to say the least.

The kids don't say they stabbed someone in self defence...they don't say anything at all.

Another sweeping generalization. I'm fairly sure that when cases go to court their lawyers offer some kind of defense, no? It's at least conceivable that at some point in time some one is going to hit on the idea that, "Hey, stabbings of we young folk happen a lot these days so I figured I'd arm myself." It will be an interesting occurance, especially given the "good reason" rider in the law. Is self-defense a legitimate good reason? You've tried to bracket off the issue totally but that might not work in the future.

I said it wasn't a critisism though you've taken it as one, that americans seem more concerned over carrying weapons than we are. Blaming us for causing two world wars, thats just beyond the pale. As someone who's family were wiped out in the camps should I be blaming them for their horrible demise then?

Speaking of being in a habit of misconstruing posts, you've obviously done that here. If you bothered to read my post you'd see that it was made directly after your sweeping generalization as a way to indicate that such statements are, apart from making people feel good, not all that useful (or accurate).

As I also said.... I give up.

Well, you've certainly given up on answering my question.

Pax,

Chris

 

[celtic_crippler]

Guess the jaded British wife will just have to bash hubby's head in with a frying pan instead of stabbing him to death with the butcher knife now.

 

[sempai little1]

Guess the jaded British wife will just have to bash hubby's head in with a frying pan instead of stabbing him to death with the butcher knife now.

It's less messy that way any how.....Not that I would know anything about that.

Your friend,
Sempai Little1 :wavey:

 

[Tez3]

Well, I suppose everyone's entitled to their own opinions.

Frankly, I think a lot of laws passed in the U.S. are frivilous so kudos to you chaps for not putting any new laws on the books in this area for so long. Of course, that doesn't mean they were well written in the first place (and from what I saw in the link you provided I'd have to say they are not, but that's just me not liking loopholes you can drive a trck through).



Quite the contrary, actually.



I'm all for personal responsibility. Whether or not a socialist government promotes that (or even can) is a legitimate question. I think it certainly is working at a disadvantage, to say the least.



Another sweeping generalization. I'm fairly sure that when cases go to court their lawyers offer some kind of defense, no? It's at least conceivable that at some point in time some one is going to hit on the idea that, "Hey, stabbings of we young folk happen a lot these days so I figured I'd arm myself." It will be an interesting occurance, especially given the "good reason" rider in the law. Is self-defense a legitimate good reason? You've tried to bracket off the issue totally but that might not work in the future.



Speaking of being in a habit of misconstruing posts, you've obviously done that here. If you bothered to read my post you'd see that it was made directly after your sweeping generalization as a way to indicate that such statements are, apart from making people feel good, not all that useful (or accurate).



Well, you've certainly given up on answering my question.

Pax,

Chris

"Well, I suppose everyone's entitled to their own opinions."

Who's laws are we discussing here? Damn right thats our opinion mate!

Everytime we get one of these British law bashing threads everyone piles in thinking they can tell us how it should be....Elder you are so right!!

As for the children not talking I assume you have an intimate knowledge of the law here as pertains to children charged with serious crimes and how their cases are treated so I shan't bother explaining the finer points of the law.

Our laws are different from yours, they are enacted differently and put into practice differently. I know nothing about yours so I don't comment on them. I work using our laws and we don't have a problem wih carrying out the law.

 

[FieldDiscipline]

FD, I think it is a demographic thing, it seems rare in the country and small towns. Diane Abbott said it's also a thing where many children grow up in single parent homes with no man for guidance on how to behave as man, she also said it was primararily a black thing, just as well she says that though! the Inner City poverty is also blamed as is the rise in underage binge drinking.

Diane Abbott [shudders] said what everyone is thinking. Society has seen better days. On the race aspect; each of these stories seems to be accompanied by a picture like the one here. Which is certainly fuelling that perception. I agree, for what its worth.

Thank God we've all gotten past making sweeping generalizations. I mean, how silly would it have been if someone had said that Europeans were simply experiencing the natural result of causing two world wars and ascribing to a crypto-nihilism.

Yes, that really would be silly.

But none of this really answers my question: If this is a phenomenon limited to minors why not just outlaw minors carrying knives?

It's subjective. Unless I am very much mistaken, carrying anything that is intended to be used as a weapon is outlawed. As we all know only the law abiding follow that. Is that better than letting everyone carry arms? Don't know. Cant see it ever being any other way here after Dunblane etc, so its academic.

That said, in effect is that not the case? If I as an adult am carrying a knife for a legitimate purpose that I can justify then that is legal. I think??

The kids don't say they stabbed someone in self defence...they don't say anything at all.

Except for, from time to time... Rispek.

 

[Tez3]

Diane Abbott [shudders] said what everyone is thinking. Society has seen better days. On the race aspect; each of these stories seems to be accompanied by a picture like the one here. Which is certainly fuelling that perception. I agree, for what its worth.



Yes, that really would be silly.




It's subjective. Unless I am very much mistaken, carrying anything that is intended to be used as a weapon is outlawed. As we all know only the law abiding follow that. Is that better than letting everyone carry arms? Don't know. Cant see it ever being any other way here after Dunblane etc, so its academic.

That said, in effect is that not the case? If I as an adult am carrying a knife for a legitimate purpose that I can justify then that is legal. I think??



Except for, from time to time... Rispek.

Yes it's perfectly legal to carry knives, blades etc for legitimate reasons.

 

[celtic_crippler]

Yes it's perfectly legal to carry knives, blades etc for legitimate reasons.

Is self-defense considered a legitimate reason in England?

 

[Tez3]

This is what killers say and incidently they pleaded not guilty.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article6194861.ece

Cases where children are charged with serious crimes are subject to separate rules, there's reporting restrictions and anonymity for the accused, as far as the public is concerned the accused never say anything....... as I said they never say anything!


Talking to the public I've found most wouldn't want Britain to be armed in the way that America is, only a few here, ex military, gun enthuisasts etc have experience of weapons so the perception is different here. I've said before though that in the country we all have shotguns which we let off with great glee!

 

[chrispillertkd]

Guess the jaded British wife will just have to bash hubby's head in with a frying pan instead of stabbing him to death with the butcher knife now.

Not with the "anti-bashing" frying pan, complete with pillow attached to bottom of the pan in order to make such violence impossible (pattent pending). Sure the pillow makes cooking a bit dicey, but it's all for the greater good of a safe environment. Just keep your fire extinguisher handy.

Pax,

Chris

 

[Tez3]

Is self-defense considered a legitimate reason in England?

No, not for carrying a weapon.

If you are attacked and pick up a weapon that would be legal as long as you used reasonable force ie don't KO a guy then smash his face in, that sort of thing.

 

[chrispillertkd]

"Well, I suppose everyone's entitled to their own opinions."

Who's laws are we discussing here? Damn right thats our opinion mate!

Kudos.

Everytime we get one of these British law bashing threads everyone piles in thinking they can tell us how it should be....Elder you are so right!!

Yes, and there is a complete absence of such threads when it comes to the U.S.

But anyway, pointing out loopholes and asking specific questions about the laws which pertain to this topic hardly qualifies as "bashing," IMNSHO.

As for the children not talking I assume you have an intimate knowledge of the law here as pertains to children charged with serious crimes and how their cases are treated so I shan't bother explaining the finer points of the law.

No I don't which is why I brought the subject up in the first place. If you don't want to answer my questions you don't have to but you're getting downright humorous about things, now lol

Our laws are different from yours, they are enacted differently and put into practice differently. I know nothing about yours so I don't comment on them. I work using our laws and we don't have a problem wih carrying out the law.

Again, kudos. I, on the other hand, don't have a first hand familiarity with your laws (the times I've visited Englad I've managed to avoid any contact with the police and hope my record continues in the future ). But when I don't know about something I tend to ask questions about it. I also tend to comment about huge loopholes that exist when I read links that you provide that are supposed to answer said questions in the first place.

But I'm funny like that.

Pax,

Chris

 

[chrispillertkd]

This is what killers say and incidently they pleaded not guilty.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article6194861.ece

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Pax,

Chris

 

[chrispillertkd]

Is self-defense considered a legitimate reason in England?

No, not for carrying a weapon.

Dosn't this seem to be making the law abiding citizen work from a disadvantage, or is it me?

Pax,

Chris

 

[Tez3]

Chris no Brit on MT has started an anti American thread or one criticising American laws. It was the OP I was meaning when I said the Brit bashing threads.
Where you see loopholes I don't so I guess I don't understand where you are coming from.
If yu have been to England you will have seen English law, we also have Scottish, Welsh and Irish laws not to mention the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man. A many of our laws are older than your country so I guess they must work lol!

 

[Tez3]

Dosn't this seem to be making the law abiding citizen work from a disadvantage, or is it me?

Pax,

Chris

No why would it? As I said 'you can pick up a weapon', use your imagination! We don't have everything written down for us, we use common sense.