The Sir Sandwich - "Sir, yes Sir!
- Thread starter Metal
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You can always do the "V thing behind other peoples heads.
oftheherd1
Senior Master
SIR, YES SIR? I thought that went away when Cobra Kai closed its doors.
OK, first thing, I have been retired from the US Army for 23 years. No doubt some things have changed.
When I retired, I was given a set of orders such that if the President declared a national emergency, I was directed to report to a certain post by the most direct means possible, and would be on active duty again. I think it was the same for officers under the rank of General.
To my knowledge, that only applied to retirees, not those who left the military before retirement. If they had not served a certain amount of time on active duty before separation, they had a certain time in the active reserve (assignment to a specific unit, and monthly meetings), and then a certain amount of time in the inactive reserve, where they were subject to recall, but didn't have to be assigned to a unit or make monthly meetings. If I recall, the total time didn't exceed 10 years. General Officers are in a special status. If I recall, they 'retire' on full pay, but can be recalled to active duty at any time, for any amount of time, at the pleasure of their service.
NCO ranks (Non-Commissioned Officers) in my experience were often called Sarge (other than corporals), or simply Sergeant, except for Master Sergeant (E-8), First Sergeant (E-8), and Sergeant Major (E-9). Master Sergeants could be called either unless the individual had a preference. In an infantry unit, the platoon sergeant might be called Plat Daddy, but probably not to his face except informally. First Sergeants might be informally be called Top. Otherwise, First Sergeants and Sergeants Major were always called by their rank. It would be an immediate stern lesson in etiquette to do otherwise. There are three types of Sergeant Major: a simple Sergeant Major (normally in an administrative duty), a Command Sergeant Major( the Sergeant Major of a battalion, or higher), and The Sergeant Major of the Army (only one serving at any given time, and he/she has a different pay scale). At no time would an NCO be called sir. That is a title reserved to commissioned (or warrant) officers.
Some have mentioned people don't understand why Marines do things the way the do. I wonder if even many Marines understand that (or Airborne in my case). Even such a thing as close order drill has its place. Besides teaching an efficient way to move from one place to another, begins to contribute to a sense of unit cohesion.
Doing things quickly without question has its place too. When a sergeant yells duck on the battlefield, it's probably not a good time to get into a lengthy philosophical discussion as to why you should.
When you are ordered to charge a machine gun position and that order gives you a small chance of survival, failure to obey, may cause the death of many of your fellow fighters. Soldiers and Marines tend to have a lot of allegience to those in their squad, platoon, and company. They will die for each other when they might not be quick to give their lives for someone in another unit.
That is why one may jump on a hand grenade. The one who does so has no thought of survival. He simply hopes that he will save his comrades, and die as quickly and as painlessly as possibly.
I don't know if the Marines have a similar saying or tradition as the Airborne, but when an enlisted person passes an officer, or a lower ranking officer a higher ranking on, the lower ranker person will salute first and call out "All the way, Sir!" The higher ranking person will return the salute, and call out "Airborne!" It's an Airborne thing. We never give up, but go all the way.
But never any Sir, yes sir. At least no in the Army I was in.
EDIT: All the military learning aside, when I studied Hapkido, I often referred to my GM as sir, saying yessir or nosir. I also began calling him by his Korean title. In English, he was quite satisfied to be called Master Lee by his students rather than Grand Master. I did those things in class settings and in social settings as well. I respected him very much.
OK, first thing, I have been retired from the US Army for 23 years. No doubt some things have changed.
When I retired, I was given a set of orders such that if the President declared a national emergency, I was directed to report to a certain post by the most direct means possible, and would be on active duty again. I think it was the same for officers under the rank of General.
To my knowledge, that only applied to retirees, not those who left the military before retirement. If they had not served a certain amount of time on active duty before separation, they had a certain time in the active reserve (assignment to a specific unit, and monthly meetings), and then a certain amount of time in the inactive reserve, where they were subject to recall, but didn't have to be assigned to a unit or make monthly meetings. If I recall, the total time didn't exceed 10 years. General Officers are in a special status. If I recall, they 'retire' on full pay, but can be recalled to active duty at any time, for any amount of time, at the pleasure of their service.
NCO ranks (Non-Commissioned Officers) in my experience were often called Sarge (other than corporals), or simply Sergeant, except for Master Sergeant (E-8), First Sergeant (E-8), and Sergeant Major (E-9). Master Sergeants could be called either unless the individual had a preference. In an infantry unit, the platoon sergeant might be called Plat Daddy, but probably not to his face except informally. First Sergeants might be informally be called Top. Otherwise, First Sergeants and Sergeants Major were always called by their rank. It would be an immediate stern lesson in etiquette to do otherwise. There are three types of Sergeant Major: a simple Sergeant Major (normally in an administrative duty), a Command Sergeant Major( the Sergeant Major of a battalion, or higher), and The Sergeant Major of the Army (only one serving at any given time, and he/she has a different pay scale). At no time would an NCO be called sir. That is a title reserved to commissioned (or warrant) officers.
Some have mentioned people don't understand why Marines do things the way the do. I wonder if even many Marines understand that (or Airborne in my case). Even such a thing as close order drill has its place. Besides teaching an efficient way to move from one place to another, begins to contribute to a sense of unit cohesion.
Doing things quickly without question has its place too. When a sergeant yells duck on the battlefield, it's probably not a good time to get into a lengthy philosophical discussion as to why you should.
When you are ordered to charge a machine gun position and that order gives you a small chance of survival, failure to obey, may cause the death of many of your fellow fighters. Soldiers and Marines tend to have a lot of allegience to those in their squad, platoon, and company. They will die for each other when they might not be quick to give their lives for someone in another unit.
That is why one may jump on a hand grenade. The one who does so has no thought of survival. He simply hopes that he will save his comrades, and die as quickly and as painlessly as possibly.
I don't know if the Marines have a similar saying or tradition as the Airborne, but when an enlisted person passes an officer, or a lower ranking officer a higher ranking on, the lower ranker person will salute first and call out "All the way, Sir!" The higher ranking person will return the salute, and call out "Airborne!" It's an Airborne thing. We never give up, but go all the way.
But never any Sir, yes sir. At least no in the Army I was in.
EDIT: All the military learning aside, when I studied Hapkido, I often referred to my GM as sir, saying yessir or nosir. I also began calling him by his Korean title. In English, he was quite satisfied to be called Master Lee by his students rather than Grand Master. I did those things in class settings and in social settings as well. I respected him very much.
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An enlisted Marine salutes all officers and warrant officers of all US armed forces and renders a greeting, such as "Good afternoon, sir!" The salute is held until returned by the officer or officers being saluted. In unit formations, the highest-ranking enlisted man present takes charge of the group and renders the salute, while giving the order "Present arms!" to those in formation. The officer(s) return the salute, at which time the senior enlisted Marine present gives the command "Order arms!" and the enlisted men drop their arms.
We do not salute indoors unless under arms (wearing a 'duty belt' is considered to be under arms, even if no weapon is present). We do not salute without headgear on. We do not salute while in civilian clothing (although that rule has been changed in recent years - all veterans of the armed services are permitted to render a hand salute when the National Anthem is played or when the National Ensign passes by, when covered, even wearing civilian clothing). Enlisted men do not salute while sitting down unless confined to a wheelchair. If armed with a rifle, we render a rifle salute or present arms, otherwise we render a hand salute. We do not salute while guarding prisoners. We do not salute in an armed theater of war when in the field (and officers often do not wear rank on their uniforms at that time, it makes them targets for snipers).
We only call enlisted men 'sir' during boot camp. And we only use the 'sir, yes, sir' during boot camp. The same thing with referring to ourselves in the third person; only during boot camp. Once out in the Fleet Marine Force, it's "yes, sir," "no, sir," or 'aye aye sir" to officers and warrant officers only.
There are some unofficial traditions which are commonly observed, such as saluting an enlisted man who is a Congressional Medal of Honor recipient and calling that person 'sir'. It's out of respect for the award and the person who earned it.
Many of these rules are seen to be silly or useless to civilians, but as you say, they have their place and their meanings. And I note that when an enlisted man salutes and officer, the officer is obliged to return that salute. Thus, both officers and enlisted offer each other respect. Same thing when I bow to my sensei. He bows also. It's not about subservience, which some people think. Just respect. And that respect doesn't have to be earned before being offered; it's more like just being polite. It doesn't mean I know the person I am saluting (or bowing to) and approve of them; it means I am a polite person who can observe the rules of decorum in a given situation.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
Off topic, but this reminds me of a couple of things that happened to me. I hope you guys don't mind if I share a quick story.
When I was in Basic Training at Lackland back in 1989, I failed to salute a staff vehicle when walking back from the store (it was a Lt. Colonel). When I got back, my TI was waiting for me, and he was pissed. Apparently, word got back to him faster than I did. So, I spent at least an hour saluting inanimate objects, and greeting them politely.
TI: "Airman, there's Major Rock."
Me: Salute. "Good afternoon, Major."
TI: "Is that Colonel Flagpole?"
Me: Salute. "Good afternoon, Colonel."
Made an impression. So, a few weeks later I'm once again walking back from the store, and a giant blue bus is coming slowly down the road with rank flags on it. I had never seen a "staff vehicle" that was other than a sedan, so I didn't know whether it qualified or not. Having been burned once, I figured I'd take the gamble and pop a salute. The bus passes me by and immediately I hear the, 'Pshhhh" of the air brakes as the bus stops and the door opens. Crap. I figured it wasn't a staff vehicle, and because I got yelled at for everything in basic training, I was expecting to get an earful from a TI... my belief was that EVERYONE I encountered who wasn't a trainee was a TI in disguise trying to trick me into doing something wrong.
"Airman!" (I kept walking... hoping he wasn't talking to me.)
"Airman... walking away with a shopping bag. Come here. I want to talk to you."
Turns out that the rank on the flags was a star, and the bus was full of brand spanking new generals being given a tour of the training side of Lackland. I was the first airman to salute them and so they insisted on giving me a ride back, asking me all of the typical questions, "Where are you from? How do you like the food? Etc."
I was a nervous wreck, but it turned out okay. Fun memory.
oftheherd1
Senior Master
I think most of that is common throughout the services Bill. Thanks for mentioning it for those who would not know it and might/should be interested. I guess some of us that have spent time in a service take a lot of knowledge for granted.
That includes saluting an MoH recipient. http://www.stripes.com/blogs/the-ru...ops-salute-medal-of-honor-recipients-1.125849 gives some insight into MoH recipients.
Also when I first joined the Army, wearing a helmet liner also put one under arms. When under arms, you did not have to remove your head gear when entering a chapel, but no one would have been corrected for doing, even if you purpose for doing so was for official business.
Your last paragraph is important for everyone to know as well, especially regarding the salute. I think many view it as some old-fashioned military discipline thing. It is that, but more importantly, it is also as you said, mutual respect shown by both officers and enlisted men, to each other.
oftheherd1
Senior Master
Steve - Thanks for your anecdote. Must have created something of a stir when a bus full of generals pulled into your unit area and let you out. I enjoyed reading that. Some things are rather uniquely humorous to military or former military. I never saw anyone required to salute flagpoles or rocks, but old NCOs, especially drill sergeants, were known to be creative sometimes.
For example, if a discarded cigarette was not first field stripped, the person who discarded it might be required to did a hole six feet, by six feet, by six feet, to bury the cigarette in. If you've never done it, you have no idea how much dirt that is; especially with an entrenching tool. I think it wouldn't happen in today's Army, nor in the old Army when I came in. But some NCOs in the old Airborne hadn't gotten the memo.
For example, if a discarded cigarette was not first field stripped, the person who discarded it might be required to did a hole six feet, by six feet, by six feet, to bury the cigarette in. If you've never done it, you have no idea how much dirt that is; especially with an entrenching tool. I think it wouldn't happen in today's Army, nor in the old Army when I came in. But some NCOs in the old Airborne hadn't gotten the memo.
6x6x6 with an e-tool???????
I take it you never saw the movie "The D.I." with Jack Webb? In the movie (and supposedly in real life), the recruits were made to dig a 6-foot grave for a sand flea that a recruit slapped without permission. And Parris Island, South Carolina, is sand. Just *try* to dig deep hole in sand.
British forces never salute the person but the cap badge which represents the Queen's Commission and therefore the Queen. No salutes are given unless wearing a hat/cap or the headress of the service/regiment, which means no saluting out of uniform. When no hat is worn the junior service person will 'brace up' ie come to attention. Only officers are saluted as only they have the Queen's Commision.
No, sorry, I don't watch much tv or movies. Too busy climbing mountains or otherwise exploring
oftheherd1
Senior Master
I've been around sandy soils. No fun. But as it turns out, about half way between Taiwan and Okinawa, is a small island called Irio Mote; dirt, volcanic rocks, some sand. We were there for a special jungle school that our battlegroup had set up about 1963. For some unknown reason, I went somewhere, and left my rifle in my pup tent. Now in the infantry, that is a no, no. I knew that and had never done such a thing. Not only were we not susposed to, but it is very much a survival thing. I hadn't gotten too far when I remembered and returned quickly to my pup tent. NOT THERE! :vu:
Worse, nobody knew where it was when I checked. So, I had to go to my squad leader and confess my sin. No hiding that. I was immediately shown my rifle, chewed out up one side and down the other, then dispatched to an area adjacent to the slit trench (field latrine to the uninitiated) to dig a six by in penance. As with Bill, I thought that was just in the movies. I was more angry than I can tell. I was fuming. I understood I had done something wrong, and was very angry with myself, and I had heard of 6x6x6 pits, but never seen one. Grueling runs, yes. Bear pits, yes. Forced marches, yes. 6x6x6, no. But what to do. I grounded my rifle and began digging. :wah:
About the 6x6x2 level, I was relieved. I could do nothing but sulk off as thankfully as possible. For about 50 yards. NOOOooo!!! Where's my rifle??? About the 6x6x3 1/2 level, I was again much chastised and was relieved again. I quietly collected all my gear (for sure including my rifle), disappeared to my pup tent, glaring at all who came by, wondering who it was who had ratted me out. I never did find out. But I can assure you I was even more careful about protecting all government equipment, starting with my rifle.
Ah, the old days. So many wonderful life lessons to be learned in the Army.
Thank heaven they are in fact the old days.
In boot camp, during our one-week bivouac at Camp Pendleton, various Drill Instructors attempted to relieve us of our rifles as we slept (in Shelter Halfs, not pup tents, hehehe). I slept with my rifle's sling wrapped around my arms. Someone did grab my rifle, but they could not pull it out of the Shelter Half, since I was attached to it. They pulled HARD and I slid out into the moonlight, still attached to my rifle. The Drill Instructor said quietly "Carry on, Private," and went away. Sorry to hear that happened to you, could not have been fun. I guess it beats Court Martial or NJP.
Here you go...
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oftheherd1
Senior Master
Thanks, but no need to feel sorry. Just another life lesson to be learned. And bragging rights if that counts. How many can say they got to dig a six by? And sure it was better than a CM of NJD.
Dobbelsteen
White Belt
Over here (The Netherlands) most people only use 'sir' for strangers. Therefor it has actually become somewhat insulting if you say sir to people who aren't strangers to you. If you want to be respectfull, you should be bothered to remember (and use) someones name.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
The method is in the name:. muscles are required; intelligence not essential, sir.
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