Differences in how TKD is taught

[Kong Soo Do]

Okay, I'm going to toss this topic out carefully for discussion. In no way I'm I looking for a flame-fest or to stir the pot. I feel however, it needs to be addressed though and discussed with an eye towards averting future issues. So read what I'm offering with a tone of sincerity and a goal of not only resolution but expanding our insight into others goals.

This was posted by Puunui in a closed thread. I don't think it had anything to do with the thread being closed, it was just one of the many comments in the flow of the conversation. I think it deserves further inspection.

I suppose there are those who, having no students of their own, feel the need or desire to judge other people's students. For me personally, if an instructor chooses to promote someone to whatever rank, then I feel we should respect that decision. Otherwise, we end up being the nosy neighbor who constantly criticizes what others are doing around the block. I don't care what my neighbor's lawn looks like, or how they raise their kids. That's their business.

I think Glenn has spoken some wisdom, particularly the highlighted portion. There are no universal guidelines set in place, by which, all arts are compelled to comply. Indeed, even within the same art there are often a wide range of 'accepted' guidelines. So this needs to be kept in mind when looking at another art, or even those within the same art.

The question comes though, how consistent is a person going to be with this position? Are they going to give a certain organization a free pass while questioning another organizations practices? Are they going to give a certain group (ethnic, philosophy, methodology) a free pass while questioning another group? Or are we going to adhere to this only when it is comfortable? Will we violate it if the chance comes about for a good jab at someone we disagree with? These are valid questions.

The regulars here know that Glenn and I don't often see eye-to-eye. Hey, that happens from time-to-time. So for the purpose of expanding my point, in a polite way, I'm going to put Glenn under a microscope for a moment....but to be completely fair and to show I'm not singling out Glenn, I'm going to put myself under a microscope first!

Example; I think 5 year old BB's are completely ridiculous. I've stated as much. But...what ground do I have to feel that way. Yes, from a 'hard-core' martial art (read self-defense) perspective the idea of a BB of this age is beyond silly. However, the kid isn't there for self-defense. I have to keep it in perspective. The kid is there for daycare, fun, some discipline and some fitness. This isn't a bad thing, in fact, it is a good thing. So really, holding the position of it cheapening 'my' BB is apples and oranges. We received our BB's for two entirely different venues. And I can articulate the distinction to anyone that happened to be interested.

Example; I don't understand any organization that would allow instructors to supply certificates to people without testing them for the skills that the organization has put forth. I don't understand any organization that has lax standards or the appearance of favoritism towards one group over another. I would never be a part of any organization such as this. However, I have come to realize that the goals of organizations such as this are not my own goals. They cater to those of other interests. These interests may or may not demand a rigid adherence to certain methodologies or standards. Or, the standards and methodologies they do adhere to fully support the needs of the individual in that venue. I often (read always) view the martial arts as 'martial'. I see them through 'martial' glasses. My view may or may not necessarily apply to the guy or gal looking to shed a few pounds, get active or compete in a contest. Thus, in order to see it through their eyes and perspective I need to see...and respect their needs and desires.

Thus, TKD (and other arts) can be effective SD as well as a fun sport, sweat-inducing physical activity or method of stress reduction. And one should be allowed to partake in TKD for their own reasons. It is personal.

This perspective has allowed me to broaden the scope from which I view the art of TKD (or any other art).

Glenn, I would then have some questions for you (or anyone if it applies to them). Not with the intention of pointing fingers, but to identify some things that need to be addressed. For example;

For me personally, if an instructor chooses to promote someone to whatever rank, then I feel we should respect that decision.

You have questioned my rank before Glenn. Why? Did you have a valid issue with it, or was it due to our disagreements? Should not your statement apply to everyone, across the board regardless of any disagreements? This goes for any of us that have questioned someone's rank. Did we do it with a valid, legitimate concern or was it due to something else? We need to be honest with ourselves, particularly before posting. This would go a long way towards eliminating problems with each other here on the board and in life in general.

Of course, you can try to continue to be a dinosaur and stress hard core self defense training to be ready for the bogeyman that never comes, but you will end up with a very tiny pool from which to develop students.

If those of the SD perspective can make the effort to understand those of the non-SD perspective, shouldn't it go both ways? Why refer to them in a negative light such as 'dinosaur'? This actually isn't accurate at all. SD can often command large, professional audiences across the world. And many people, particularly professionals search out the arts specifically for SD, just as some specifically search out the arts for sport or other reasons. None should be disrespected. And training for the bogeyman is like carrying a spare tire; people don't go looking for a flat tire...but if they get one it is nice to have a spare tire. As such, one look at the evening news will give ample evidence that SD training can be very beneficial.

Which may not be a bad thing. Afterall, the Okinawan practitioners did not run large classes. They practiced in their backyards with a couple few people. Adopt their mentality, and you will invariably adopt their student numbers as well, which is where I suspect the vast majority of anti kukkiwon, anti sport anti this or that types are operating, with no school or a tiny school operating out of someone's garage, shaking their fists at the moon and decrying the commercialization of the martial arts,...

Again, why try to paint those that train for SD in a negative light? Money isn't the only reason to teach the arts. Some do it for free to give back to the community in which they live. Some do it because of a passion to teach. Do you have statistics that martial arts teachers that focus on SD are confined to backyards or garages? Or that their schools are tiny? My school had students coming from the surrounding four counties and we had the sole focus of SD. Why would you wish to stereotype SD schools in this way? It doesn't make non-SD schools look better by default.

...as the successful dojang operators drive to the other side of town in automobiles which cost about as much or more than the houses of the anti types.

Really? May I ask your statistics or source for this information. Again, many don't teach for money, or just the money. Making money and being a good teacher are not necessarily the same thing. Money cannot be the sole determination of martial arts success. I would offer, as an SD instructor that success is when a student comes and reports that a date-rape was unsuccessful due to what you taught. Or an Officer successfully defending himself or another and effecting an arrest. To me, that is worth more than money.

As a side note, just to dispel this myth, Sir Peter Boatman charged and received 10K for one week (which had two seminars) at SEPSI. And it was worth every penny as his teaching methodology is widely used in L.E.

You have a commercial dojang now. Which road do you want to head down, the path that leads to two hard core students, or the one that leads to 500 happy smiling ones whose positive attitudes their parents credit to you?

It doesn't have to be a 'this or that' mentality. One can have a 'successful' SD school or one can have a successful non-SD school or something in the middle. We need to avoid biased stereotypes as it only leads to misinformation and bad feelings.

We can all get along....and should even in disagreement.

Respectfully submitted,

KSD (the SD guy)

 

[Kinghercules]

As Master Jack Dark of Jack Dark Champion Taekwondo once said to me "You'll have your students that really dont wanna learn how to fight. They're just there to keep the doors open and then you'll have a small group of students that wanna really KNOW SD, those the ones you focus on and really train in the art."

Ive taught in a few McDojo's (Bubble Gum TKD or Rinky Dinky TDK whateva you wanna call them) and Ive learned that most of these students today just wanna train just to say that they have trained.

So if you know how to play the game.....you can have it both ways.

 

[Kinghercules]

"I suppose there are those who, having no students of their own, feel the need or desire to judge other people's students. For me personally, if an instructor chooses to promote someone to whatever rank, then I feel we should respect that decision. Otherwise, we end up being the nosy neighbor who constantly criticizes what others are doing around the block. I don't care what my neighbor's lawn looks like, or how they raise their kids. That's their business"

Now on this one I disagree with. If their BB are some trash call 'em out. My teach, GM Albert Cheeks, will tell a person in the nicest way that their students suck and tell them why then try to help them improve on their students but I was told that The Great Ki Whang Kim would tell other masters that their students were some garbage in a min and then dared them to prove him wrong. GM Cheeks told me that he had to fight a few times on the be half of Ki Whang Kim. LOL!

Whatever happened to settin standards (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6uJ4PBOcmg)?
LOL!
Seriously tho...

And you have to remember in certain neighbor hoods you have to keep your lawn to a certain standard or you'll get find.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I had thought from the title of the thread that this was to be a thread about teaching methodology and curriculum content.

It is nothing of the sort, so the title is misleading.

This is really a thread about organizational standards and you respoding to and questioning another poster's comments, made in a thread that has been locked by the admins.

A different title is in order, but I will weigh in nonetheless.

Okay, I'm going to toss this topic out carefully for discussion. In no way I'm I looking for a flame-fest or to stir the pot. I feel however, it needs to be addressed though and discussed with an eye towards averting future issues. So read what I'm offering with a tone of sincerity and a goal of not only resolution but expanding our insight into others goals.

This was posted by Puunui in a closed thread. I don't think it had anything to do with the thread being closed, it was just one of the many comments in the flow of the conversation. I think it deserves further inspection.

I suppose there are those who, having no students of their own, feel the need or desire to judge other people's students. For me personally, if an instructor chooses to promote someone to whatever rank, then I feel we should respect that decision. Otherwise, we end up being the nosy neighbor who constantly criticizes what others are doing around the block. I don't care what my neighbor's lawn looks like, or how they raise their kids. That's their business.

I think Glenn has spoken some wisdom, particularly the highlighted portion. There are no universal guidelines set in place, by which, all arts are compelled to comply. Indeed, even within the same art there are often a wide range of 'accepted' guidelines. So this needs to be kept in mind when looking at another art, or even those within the same art.

I agree; he has spoken some wisdom. Our society is consumed with nosiness, gossip, and busybodying. I've had enough of it in general, which is why I don't watch television very much.

The question comes though, how consistent is a person going to be with this position? Are they going to give a certain organization a free pass while questioning another organizations practices? Are they going to give a certain group (ethnic, philosophy, methodology) a free pass while questioning another group? Or are we going to adhere to this only when it is comfortable? Will we violate it if the chance comes about for a good jab at someone we disagree with? These are valid questions.

The answer to all of these questions is, 'depends on who you ask.' Some people are more consistent than others.

There are ample examples of KKW, ITF, and ATA students on Youtube that people like to post and hold up as examples of a lack of consistent (or any) standards. The majority of yelping about standards, however, seems to come from people who are unaffiliated. Yet, so far, the only unaffiliated poster who has had the courage to put up video of himself is Twin Fist, which still didn't give us an indication of the performance level of those he has promoted. But, at least he had the courage to show us something.

It is very easy to pick apart other schools and organizations by browsing Youtube and picking out videos that support one's presuppositions. It is quite another to put video of either one's own ildan grading or the ildan grading of one's own students out there for all to see and critique.

The regulars here know that Glenn and I don't often see eye-to-eye. Hey, that happens from time-to-time. So for the purpose of expanding my point, in a polite way, I'm going to put Glenn under a microscope for a moment....but to be completely fair and to show I'm not singling out Glenn, I'm going to put myself under a microscope first!

I'm generally not a fan of calling out another poster in this fashion. If you have a topic to discuss, just post it. Calling out another poster in this manner rarely produces anything other than animosity and flaming.

Also, I really don't see you putting yourself under the microscope. You mention your perspective on a few things and do so in a very general, not naming names, way, which is kind of pointless given that you called out Glenn by name. You may as well just fill in the blanks. Nothing that you are saying about 'such organizations' is particularly damning nor is it anything that hasn't been said before.

Example; I think 5 year old BB's are completely ridiculous. I've stated as much. But...what ground do I have to feel that way. Yes, from a 'hard-core' martial art (read self-defense) perspective the idea of a BB of this age is beyond silly. However, the kid isn't there for self-defense. I have to keep it in perspective. The kid is there for daycare, fun, some discipline and some fitness. This isn't a bad thing, in fact, it is a good thing. So really, holding the position of it cheapening 'my' BB is apples and oranges. We received our BB's for two entirely different venues. And I can articulate the distinction to anyone that happened to be interested.

If the school is KKW, the student should be in a pum belt and not a black belt, so within the organization, I do think that it is ridiculous; the school owner is blatantly ignoring Kukkiwon policy and taking advantage of the fact that the Kukkiwon is a relatively hands off organization.

The five year old black belt, I assume, is a reference to the ATA thread by the same name. The ATA issues a black belt to students who complete the geub levels of their childrens program. It is their policy, and therefore not ridiculous that school owners do it, though the policy itself is another topic. At this point in my life, I don't care. Not what I would do, but not my policy to police.

I have no idea what the ITF's official policy on this.

Example; I don't understand any organization that would allow instructors to supply certificates to people without testing them for the skills that the organization has put forth. I don't understand any organization that has lax standards or the appearance of favoritism towards one group over another. I would never be a part of any organization such as this. However, I have come to realize that the goals of organizations such as this are not my own goals. They cater to those of other interests. These interests may or may not demand a rigid adherence to certain methodologies or standards. Or, the standards and methodologies they do adhere to fully support the needs of the individual in that venue. I often (read always) view the martial arts as 'martial'. I see them through 'martial' glasses. My view may or may not necessarily apply to the guy or gal looking to shed a few pounds, get active or compete in a contest. Thus, in order to see it through their eyes and perspective I need to see...and respect their needs and desires.

I bolded the first sentence, as the rest doesn't make sense to me; in trying to keep it general, it doesn't seem connected with the first sentence and it looks like you were rambling a bit. Perhaps examples of what you mean by favoritism towards one group over another is referring to would be in order?

RE the first sentence, before responding to it, I ask that you simply come right out and say what it is you're talking about. I think I know, but I want to be sure before responding.

Thus, TKD (and other arts) can be effective SD as well as a fun sport, sweat-inducing physical activity or method of stress reduction. And one should be allowed to partake in TKD for their own reasons. It is personal.

This perspective has allowed me to broaden the scope from which I view the art of TKD (or any other art).

Absolutely.

Glenn, I would then have some questions for you (or anyone if it applies to them). Not with the intention of pointing fingers, but to identify some things that need to be addressed. For example;

For me personally, if an instructor chooses to promote someone to whatever rank, then I feel we should respect that decision.

You have questioned my rank before Glenn. Why? Did you have a valid issue with it, or was it due to our disagreements? Should not your statement apply to everyone, across the board regardless of any disagreements? This goes for any of us that have questioned someone's rank. Did we do it with a valid, legitimate concern or was it due to something else? We need to be honest with ourselves, particularly before posting. This would go a long way towards eliminating problems with each other here on the board and in life in general.

If I remember correctly (the two of you have sparred enough that I may not remember/have read the exchange that you are referencing), he posed the question to you in a 'devil's advocate' manner after you questioned the promoting of people under some particular set of circumstances (probably sport or kid belts; too many posts between you guys for me to pick it out at this point).

Of course, you can try to continue to be a dinosaur and stress hard core self defense training to be ready for the bogeyman that never comes, but you will end up with a very tiny pool from which to develop students.

If those of the SD perspective can make the effort to understand those of the non-SD perspective, shouldn't it go both ways? Why refer to them in a negative light such as 'dinosaur'? This actually isn't accurate at all. SD can often command large, professional audiences across the world. And many people, particularly professionals search out the arts specifically for SD, just as some specifically search out the arts for sport or other reasons. None should be disrespected. And training for the bogeyman is like carrying a spare tire; people don't go looking for a flat tire...but if they get one it is nice to have a spare tire. As such, one look at the evening news will give ample evidence that SD training can be very beneficial.

Actually, it is accurate. Neither positive nor negative, but accurate. Hard core SD schools are, in the grand scheme of things, a thing of the past. Kind of like guys who build and race flathead Fords and may have shops and parts catalogues dedicated to them. Sure, they do it, love it, and are fulfilled in doing so. But the automotive world has moved on and modern hot rodders aren't building T-buckets and Deuce Coupes. The guys that still do are 'dinosaurs.' Of course, 'Old school' is a popular term for people engaging in outdated practices, but either term will do.

I still teach a very small hapkido/TKD hybrid class that is focused on self defense. No jumping, spinning, no WTF sparring, no flash & trash; just good old SD. And I have two students.

Yes, that makes me a dinosaur. Tyranosaurus Rex, mind you, but a dinosaur nonetheless. And I am very happy with it; we get together, train hard, and then eat and socialize.

I teach kendo by the book and have considerably more students even though sword arts generally do not attract the quanity of students that unarmed arts do.

The common thread?

Kendo is about self development and is very sportive and fun. Just like KKW TKD.

Which may not be a bad thing. Afterall, the Okinawan practitioners did not run large classes. They practiced in their backyards with a couple few people. Adopt their mentality, and you will invariably adopt their student numbers as well, which is where I suspect the vast majority of anti kukkiwon, anti sport anti this or that types are operating, with no school or a tiny school operating out of someone's garage, shaking their fists at the moon and decrying the commercialization of the martial arts,...

Again, why try to paint those that train for SD in a negative light? Money isn't the only reason to teach the arts. Some do it for free to give back to the community in which they live. Some do it because of a passion to teach. Do you have statistics that martial arts teachers that focus on SD are confined to backyards or garages? Or that their schools are tiny? My school had students coming from the surrounding four counties and we had the sole focus of SD. Why would you wish to stereotype SD schools in this way? It doesn't make non-SD schools look better by default.

He didn't paint them in a negative light at all. He said that adopting their mentality will result in small class sizes (there may be exceptions, but overall, he's correct), and that this is where the vast majority of anti kukkiwon, anti sport, anti this or that types are operating.'

It is these individuals who shake their fists on the internet and slam the Kukkiwon, sport, and other organizations and such, that he is painting in a negative light.

...as the successful dojang operators drive to the other side of town in automobiles which cost about as much or more than the houses of the anti types.

Really? May I ask your statistics or source for this information. Again, many don't teach for money, or just the money. Making money and being a good teacher are not necessarily the same thing. Money cannot be the sole determination of martial arts success. I would offer, as an SD instructor that success is when a student comes and reports that a date-rape was unsuccessful due to what you taught. Or an Officer successfully defending himself or another and effecting an arrest. To me, that is worth more than money.

Pretty sure he's using hyperbole.

And while money is not the measure of MA success, it is something that rubs those less financially successful the wrong way. Especially since they consider their product to be superior.

As a side note, just to dispel this myth, Sir Peter Boatman charged and received 10K for one week (which had two seminars) at SEPSI. And it was worth every penny as his teaching methodology is widely used in L.E.

There are ten hugely successful commercial schools for every Peter Boatman, and I doubt that Peter Boatman is running seminars and getting 10K every week. On the other hand, a successful commercial school has constant income and a replenishment of student, and are probably pulling in between ten and twenty thousand a month just in tuition (school income, not personal salary).

It doesn't have to be a 'this or that' mentality. One can have a 'successful' SD school or one can have a successful non-SD school or something in the middle. We need to avoid biased stereotypes as it only leads to misinformation and bad feelings.

I totally agree.

Before the school I used to train at imploded, the GM had a very well developed TKD program and had every Tuesday set aside as self defense night. We trained in rolling, falling, various locks, sweeps, and takedowns, and sparred under the IHF rules, which allowed for such techniques. Thursdays were the general 'sparring night' and we sparred under WTF rules.

We were tested on the SD material at ilgeub, chodan-bo, and ildan.

It was an awesome program.

Then he started HKD as a separate class, started his own HKD federation (inspite of being an IHF high dan; bad advice that he should definitely not have taken), and the teaching of TKD classes suffered.

As for the bit about bias, stereotypes, and misinformation, I will say with confidence that it is pretty much all coming from the anti-KKW/anti-sport/anti-kiddie belts/anti-BBC/anti-whatever members here. And plenty of misinformation came from supposedly informed people, such as Karatemom-USA, who was neither karateka nor mother.

Then there are people who come on and post the 'this sucks/they suck/they're students suck/I'm callin out the trash on the mat' middle school sort of things.

I have been guilty of regurgitating a lot of mis-information, but actually have taken the time to find that the vast majority of things that people slam the KKW for are based on misinformation. Certainly, I have been guilty of negativity on this board in past years regarding the KKW/WTF. But under hard analysis, much of the criticism that people have of the organization does not hold up. Some of it does, but what does is not unique to the Kukkiwon or is simply a matter of personal preference.

 

[StudentCarl]

I agree with the presumption that we respect the decision of a master to promote his/her student. This respects the idea that a master defines the meaning of rank by what he/she does and does not accept.

I accept that trying to control or prevent such a thing is a waste of energy.

I like the idea that an instructor's students' abilities tell the truth about his/her promotions: your students represent you and tell what your standards are by the quality of their actions.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Thank you Daniel for taking the time to present a well thought out post. I think the title is sufficient for the purpose that TKD can be, and is taught for different reasons. I believe I touched on some of those reasons. I'd like to comment on some things as I read your post;

It is very easy to pick apart other schools and organizaitons by browsing Youtube and picking out videos that support one's presuppositions. It is quite another to put video of either one's own ildan grading or the ildan grading of one's own students out there for all to see and critique.

I think the idea of offering up some video is an excellent idea. I am in the process of putting together an instructional video series of the MSK KSD form for my association. When it is complete I'll be happy to offer it here to the membership as well for their consideration. It would be nice to see others jump on this idea as well. First, it allows us to put a face with a name (or screen name). Secondly, it can offer an additional dimension to what a person has to offer.

Anyone else up for this?

If the school is KKW, the student should be in a pum belt and not a black belt, so within the organization, I do think that it is ridiculous; the school owner is blatantly ignoring Kukkiwon policy and taking advantage of the fact that the Kukkiwon is a relatively hands off organization.

I agree with what you're saying. But I've come to accept the differences between what I would call a martial art from that of what I would call a martial sport. Not saying one is better than the other, so no one should take either as a put down. They are different, have different goals, different teaching methodologies etc. I've determined that a child in a martial sport receiving a BB in no way affects my belt. Someone receiving a BB in a year in a martial sport in no way affects my belt. It is apples and oranges. Again, this is not stated to put down the martial sport. Just to point out that, while some overlap exists, they are different enough in scope to be separate considerations.

In short, I've changed my viewpoint. Instead of getting bent-out-of-shape over every child getting a BB or whatever, or what I may determine are lax standards I'm going to look at it from the perspective that the two are different enough in operation to warrant different criteria of standards. I will judge 'them' for what they are, rather than for what they are not i.e. judge them as a sport rather than by the standards of a SD art. Yes, there can be some blurring of the lines, but by and large they are separate and each should be able to give a polite nod of respect to the other.

And while money is not the measure of MA success, it is something that rubs those less financially successful the wrong way. Especially since they consider their product to be superior.

I'm going to disagree with you here Daniel. You make it sound like it is a competition. It isn't. True, and instructor can have teaching as their sole income generator, many don't though by choice. Many instructors, like myself, don't charge anything. Not because we can't, but because to us it isn't about the money. That doesn't put down those that make their living teaching...but don't look down at me because I chose to freely give my experience to others. That is my reward. Even when I had a school-with-four-walls I only charged enough to keep the doors open. I wouldn't even say it was a 'commercial school'. Perhaps more of a 'club' where everyone, including me pitched in to have something under roof.

I teach at others schools, in my backyard, in my garage, in the park, at the beach or anywhere that I chose. And I think that it is condesending for those that teach for money to look down their noses at those of us that teach in this way. Particularly those that seem to care more about the money than the actual teaching. When I retire, which isn't very far down the road, I may open up another school. It will be SD focused only and likely it will be just like before when I had students coming from the surrounding four counties to train under me while other schools around me closed down. Or, I might just teach at a church or community center for free again. For me, and many teachers, it isn't about money...it is a passion.

And once again, success isn't determined by a bottom line. At least not for me.

Neither positive nor negative, but accurate. Hard core SD schools are, in the grand scheme of things, a thing of the past.

We will have to disagree on this. In my circles it is the exact opposite. In the last three years I've had to turn prospective students away due only to not having the time to take them into my 'school'. I have a sort of 'running list' of hopefuls. When a spot opens up I go in the order they are on the list. Not patting myself on the back, not saying I'm all that and a bag of chips...but I do offer something that is in short supply in this area at least. Something that people, both high liability and private citizen, seem to want very badly.

There are ten hugely successful commercial schools for every Peter Boatman, and I doubt that Peter Boatman is running seminars and getting 10K every week. On the other hand, a successful commercial school has constant income and a replenishment of student, and are probably pulling in between ten and twenty thousand a month just in tuition (school income, not personal salary).

Well, Mr. Boatman is deceased so it is a moot point. But while alive he was the Chief Inspector for a British Agency. That was a full time job and he did seminars has he was able. However, there are plenty of people such as Tony Blauer, Ken Good, Sonny Pratukas (sp?) and others that are in high demand in high liability circles (and private ones as well). I can't authoritatively talk about what they charge, but they stay busy!

This doesn't take away from the successful martial sport instructor. But to state that SD/combatives/H2H etc is a 'thing of the past' is highly inaccurate. If anything, it has increased many fold. At least from what I've seen in the circles I run in...which are some pretty big circles

As for the bit about bias, stereotypes, and misinformation, I will say with confidence that it is pretty much all coming from the anti-KKW/anti-sport/anti-kiddie belts/anti-BBC/anti-whatever members here. And plenty of misinformation came from supposedly informed people, such as Karatemom-USA, who was neither karateka nor mother.

I don't know who 'karatemom' is? But I would disagree with you on what you've stated, with respect. I've seen bias on both sides...as well as a LOT of misinformation. It isn't one-sided.

My point for this thread is that both sport and art (or whatever you wish to classify them as) can and should be able to get along better than they have been. Like you, I have been somewhat direct and biased on occassion. But then, we all have room to grow. The mature and wise accept the opportunity to do just that.

Thank you again for posting.

 

[Instructor]

Yet, so far, the only unaffiliated poster who has had the courage to put up video of himself is Twin Fist, which still didn't give us an indication of the performance level of those he has promoted. But, at least he had the courage to show us something.

My video is freely available on my website listed in the signature line. My stuff isn't fancy, showy, or impressive but it IS effective. I am blissfully unaffiliated at the moment and enjoying every minute of it.

My only issue with Martial Sport schools is they consistently sell themselves as a viable self defense method. In my experience it just isn't true.

Whereas I tell people up front that my style is practical self defense and not a showy tournement style. With my school I tell you exactly what you are getting and then I do everything in my power to give it to you. I do this because I have been violently assaulted before and I have had to fight for my life before. My students know that they can rely on what I teach them.

I am not free but I wouldn't call my membership fee a source of income. More like club dues.

I am not a dinosaur. The world is still a dangerous place and therefore what I teach is still relevent.

I teach because I love it and I think students respond to my sincerity.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

TKD can be, and is taught for different reasons.

Absolutely.

I think the idea of offering up some video is an excellent idea. I am in the process of putting together an instructional video series of the MSK KSD form for my association. When it is complete I'll be happy to offer it here to the membership as well for their consideration. It would be nice to see others jump on this idea as well. First, it allows us to put a face with a name (or screen name). Secondly, it can offer an additional dimension to what a person has to offer.

Anyone else up for this?

Just to be clear, I don't think that everyone has to offer up their own videos with every criticism that they make. But, if you are going to endlessly hammer on another org or school about why they don't meet the ambiguous standard of "black belt" then you need to be prepared to show what that standard looks like.

I agree with what you're saying. But I've come to accept the differences between what I would call a martial art from that of what I would call a martial sport. Not saying one is better than the other, so no one should take either as a put down. They are different, have different goals, different teaching methodologies etc. I've determined that a child in a martial sport receiving a BB in no way affects my belt. Someone receiving a BB in a year in a martial sport in no way affects my belt. It is apples and oranges. Again, this is not stated to put down the martial sport. Just to point out that, while some overlap exists, they are different enough in scope to be separate considerations.

In short, I've changed my viewpoint. Instead of getting bent-out-of-shape over every child getting a BB or whatever, or what I may determine are lax standards I'm going to look at it from the perspective that the two are different enough in operation to warrant different criteria of standards. I will judge 'them' for what they are, rather than for what they are not i.e. judge them as a sport rather than by the standards of a SD art. Yes, there can be some blurring of the lines, but by and large they are separate and each should be able to give a polite nod of respect to the other.

While that is definitely a healthier (and less frustrating) attitude, you're now making a false dichotomy. Fencing, boxing, kickboxing, MMA, and wrestling are martial sports. You train in a technique set and you compete to win. The organizations that regulate martial sports don't really care about what forms you teach, if any, or what philosophy you impart; they have a rule set, regulate the conditions under which people may compete, and levy fines for violations of the rules.

Your post is basically calling KKW and ATA taekwondo a martial sport and not martial art. This is incorrect. They are martial arts with sportive elements. Kendo, for example, though competition is a large part of it, is still a martial art with a sportive element. Though I do agree that it in no way affects your own grading; you're not in either organization, so why would it?

I'm going to disagree with you here Daniel. You make it sound like it is a competition. It isn't. True, and instructor can have teaching as their sole income generator, many don't though by choice. Many instructors, like myself, don't charge anything. Not because we can't, but because to us it isn't about the money. That doesn't put down those that make their living teaching...but don't look down at me because I chose to freely give my experience to others. That is my reward. Even when I had a school-with-four-walls I only charged enough to keep the doors open. I wouldn't even say it was a 'commercial school'. Perhaps more of a 'club' where everyone, including me pitched in to have something under roof.

I'm not sure where you're getting that from, but I was in no way implying anything about competition; that is a commonly expressed sentiment that I have seen displayed by some over the years and on various forums.

I teach at others schools, in my backyard, in my garage, in the park, at the beach or anywhere that I chose. And I think that it is condesending for those that teach for money to look down their noses at those of us that teach in this way. Particularly those that seem to care more about the money than the actual teaching. When I retire, which isn't very far down the road, I may open up another school. It will be SD focused only and likely it will be just like before when I had students coming from the surrounding four counties to train under me while other schools around me closed down. Or, I might just teach at a church or community center for free again. For me, and many teachers, it isn't about money...it is a passion.

And once again, success isn't determined by a bottom line. At least not for me.

Sure, it would be condescending... except that as a general rule, they don't. It is actually the other way around. "teaching for money dilutes the art" or "he doesn't charge for lessons, so I know he's the real deal" comments abound. I was lectured (eight paragraphs worth!) by some lunk on another forum because I have the temerity to charge for kendo lessons. Never mind that kendo clubs are not free and my rate is on par with the nearest one to me. Not to mention that he made no offer to pay for my gasoline expenses. Funny that.

But I rarely see it the other way around. And you are taking Glenn's comment way out of context.

We will have to disagree on this. In my circles it is the exact opposite. In the last three years I've had to turn prospective students away due only to not having the time to take them into my 'school'. I have a sort of 'running list' of hopefuls. When a spot opens up I go in the order they are on the list. Not patting myself on the back, not saying I'm all that and a bag of chips...but I do offer something that is in short supply in this area at least. Something that people, both high liability and private citizen, seem to want very badly.

I think you missed my 'in the grand scheme of things' part. Also, from how you have described your school, it sounds like a fairly typical karate dojo and you have people skills and speak articulately, so the fact that you are doing well doesn't particularly surprise me.

Well, Mr. Boatman is deceased so it is a moot point. But while alive he was the Chief Inspector for a British Agency. That was a full time job and he did seminars has he was able. However, there are plenty of people such as Tony Blauer, Ken Good, Sonny Pratukas (sp?) and others that are in high demand in high liability circles (and private ones as well). I can't authoritatively talk about what they charge, but they stay busy!

This doesn't take away from the successful martial sport instructor. But to state that SD/combatives/H2H etc is a 'thing of the past' is highly inaccurate. If anything, it has increased many fold. At least from what I've seen in the circles I run in...which are some pretty big circles

I don't know what circles you run in, but I'm sure that old school hot rodders could say the same thing. Unlike old school hot rodders, SD instruction is not a dying breed; the cars that are necessary to actually be an old school hot rodder are less and less plentiful by the year and the parts are less and less available outside of specialty sources. Old school hot rodding is dying slowly. Once the supply of sixties, seventies and early eighties vintage cars dries up, they will be like guys who build and race flat head Fords.

SD will always have a market and there will always be some commercial viability to it. But the days of the hard core, sweaty guys, SD/Bad a$$ schools comprising the majority of MA schools are very long gone. When they did comprise the majority, there was but a fraction of the schools that exist now. Not to mention that online programs have bled off some of their clientelle, and MMA has bled off most of the rest.

I don't know who 'karatemom' is? But I would disagree with you on what you've stated, with respect. I've seen bias on both sides...as well as a LOT of misinformation. It isn't one-sided.

Karatemom USA (have to add the USA, as there is another poster here named Karatemom who actually is a mom; K-mom USA was a guy) presented "her" self as a taekwondo historian of sorts, but when you dug into "her" statements, their accuracy was greatly flawed and relied upon hearsay and second or third hand anecdotes. I had thought that you and "she" overlapped (K-mom USA is unable to post, the account being under review), but you may have missed "her."

As for the one sided, hate to say it but on the MT board, it pretty much is. Not entirely, but I'd say that the attacks against KKW schools outnumber attacks from KKW proponents by an easy ten to one, and those are, 99% of the time, provoked by a KKW detractor. How do you not see the number of threads started that blatantly attack the Kukkiwon and the WTF? Yes, they are started by a relatively small number of people, but there are quite a few who are willing to jump onto the bandwagon and sling mud.

I have never seen SD and non-sport schools attacked in such a way on this forum.

My point for this thread is that both sport and art (or whatever you wish to classify them as) can and should be able to get along better than they have been. Like you, I have been somewhat direct and biased on occassion. But then, we all have room to grow. The mature and wise accept the opportunity to do just that.

Thank you again for posting.

Again, I don't see 'sport and art' as the division. I had thought that it was a couple of years ago, but it is obvious that it is not; the people who dislike 'sport' really only dislike WTF/olympic and ATA rules. They're fine with ITF sport, kickboxing sport and MMA sport. They use the 'sport isn't SD' to mask the fact that they are just attacking the WTF primarilly, tossing a few shots at the ATA in to give the appearance of egalitarianism.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

My video is freely available on my website listed in the signature line. My stuff isn't fancy, showy, or impressive but it IS effective. I am blissfully unaffiliated at the moment and enjoying every minute of it.

My only issue with Martial Sport schools is they consistently sell themselves as a viable self defense method. In my experience it just isn't true.

Whereas I tell people up front that my style is practical self defense and not a showy tournement style. With my school I tell you exactly what you are getting and then I do everything in my power to give it to you. I do this because I have been violently assaulted before and I have had to fight for my life before. My students know that they can rely on what I teach them.

I am not free but I wouldn't call my membership fee a source of income. More like club dues.

I am not a dinosaur. The world is still a dangerous place and therefore what I teach is still relevent.

I teach because I love it and I think students respond to my sincerity.

Sounds very similar to how I teach from home.

Regarding the video, you aren't one of the ones posting scathing reviews of other org/school standards and how their black belts are "trash" or "friggin suck." It is people who are harshly critical that I was thinking of.

As for SD, the relevance is always there. I suspect that most schools that claim an SD focus, however, are less SD focused than they think.

Also, for the record, I do not feel that organizational affiliation makes a school better. The quality of the school is determined by the instructional staff, not their affiliation.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Your post is basically calling KKW and ATA taekwondo a martial sport and not martial art. This is incorrect. They are martial arts with sportive elements. Kendo, for example, though competition is a large part of it, is still a martial art with a sportive element. Though I do agree that it in no way affects your own grading; you're not in either organization, so why would it?

I would not limit my 'art/sport' comment to just the KKW or ATA. I put MMA in there as well on the sport side. Please understand that I don't offer this classification as a put down towards 'sport'. But I classify things as such based upon my person & professional experience. I'm not looking at things such as forms, sparring etc, rather I'm looking at the methodology in the instruction. To me, in my opinion, that is the dividing line. And again, to be clear, this isn't put forth in an 'us vs. them' position. Merely acknowledging, from my perspective, the differences in methodologies.

And you are taking Glenn's comment way out of context.

I have nothng against Glenn. I don't agree with him on some issues, but then no one agrees with everyone all the time. My observations are simply based upon what I've read in his posts overall.

I don't know what circles you run in, but I'm sure that old school hot rodders could say the same thing. Unlike old school hot rodders, SD instruction is not a dying breed; the cars that are necessary to actually be an old school hot rodder are less and less plentiful by the year and the parts are less and less available outside of specialty sources. Old school hot rodding is dying slowly. Once the supply of sixties, seventies and early eighties vintage cars dries up, they will be like guys who build and race flat head Fords.

SD will always have a market and there will always be some commercial viability to it. But the days of the hard core, sweaty guys, SD/Bad a$$ schools comprising the majority of MA schools are very long gone. When they did comprise the majority, there was but a fraction of the schools that exist now. Not to mention that online programs have bled off some of their clientelle, and MMA has bled off most of the rest.

I understand your analogy. I'm not sure I agree with it totally, but I understand your point. The circles I'm in are military/LEO or executive protection. Not limit to that exclusively, but it is a large part. Just different goals and mindset because the needs are different.

And this is the type of discussion to strive for on the board. We agree on some things, disagree on other things and yet we can still 'thank' each others posts and get along in some other thread on a different topic. Of course...you suck and my black belt is blacker than your black belt :uhyeah:

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I would not limit my 'art/sport' comment to just the KKW or ATA. I put MMA in there as well on the sport side. Please understand that I don't offer this classification as a put down towards 'sport'. But I classify things as such based upon my person & professional experience. I'm not looking at things such as forms, sparring etc, rather I'm looking at the methodology in the instruction. To me, in my opinion, that is the dividing line. And again, to be clear, this isn't put forth in an 'us vs. them' position. Merely acknowledging, from my perspective, the differences in methodologies.

It isn't a question of it being a put down or a derogetory comment; your statement is simply not acccurate. KKW and ATA present a holistic curriculum that includes competition, self defense, cultural elements, and personal improvement. MMA is a sport, pure and simple.

I suspect that your curriculum is a lot closer to KKW/ATA/ITF than it is to say, "Fear no man Eye of the Cobra Death blow Krav MuyTaikwondo" type programs that I see advertised; you simply emphasize self defense over competition. There are KKW schools that do the same, incidentally.

I have nothng against Glenn. I don't agree with him on some issues, but then no one agrees with everyone all the time. My observations are simply based upon what I've read in his posts overall.

I don't agree with him all the time either, nor do I think that you have anything against him, but I know the specific comment that sparked this, and I feel that it is being taken out of context. It was directly made to Dancingalone, who just purchased a commercial school and referenced KKW/sport/etc. detractors, and I'm pretty sure that the comment was somewhat hyperbolic.

I understand your analogy. I'm not sure I agree with it totally, but I understand your point. The circles I'm in are military/LEO or executive protection. Not limit to that exclusively, but it is a large part. Just different goals and mindset because the needs are different.

Go to a hot rod show and you will think that old school hot rodding is huge. Go to twenty auto parts stores and look at what all of the aftermarket parts in stock are for. Military/LEO and executive protection circles are, by their very nature going to be much smaller than tournament fighters, suburban families and fitness minded adults. Not due to lack of relevance, but due to specialization coupled with the fact that to the general public, they'll get everything that you offer at the local ATA school.

And this is the type of discussion to strive for on the board. We agree on some things, disagree on other things and yet we can still 'thank' each others posts and get along in some other thread on a different topic. Of course...you suck and my black belt is blacker than your black belt :uhyeah:

That's just because you don't wear it.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Sounds very similar to how I teach from home.

Regarding the video, you aren't one of the ones posting scathing reviews of other org/school standards and how their black belts are "trash" or "friggin suck." It is people who are harshly critical that I was thinking of.

As for SD, the relevance is always there. I suspect that most schools that claim an SD focus, however, are less SD focused than they think.

Also, for the record, I do not feel that organizational affiliation makes a school better. The quality of the school is determined by the instructional staff, not their affiliation.

unless Ive mi ssed something I dont recall anyone calling other black belts trash or saying they 'friggin suck". If anyone has then I agree that they should put their videos up for comparison and probably be given some time out from this board. Ive heard people say that standards for black belts are too low in some clubs but i think we all agree on that anyway.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

That's just because you don't wear it.

Not true! Only mine has a Glock 21 .45ACP, two spare magazines, handcuffs, 911 tool, flashlight, O.C. spray, MTM mask, Taser, spare Taser cartridge and radio. And yeah...it makes my back tired! :s85:

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

unless Ive missed something I dont recall anyone calling other black belts trash

Go to the first couple of responses on this thread and you'll see one instance, but hardly the only one.

or saying they 'friggin suck". If anyone has then I agree that they should put their videos up for comparison

To his credit, at least one person who used that descriptor actually did so. But he is not the only one guilty of that.

and probably be given some time out from this board. Ive heard people say that standards for black belts are too low in some clubs but i think we all agree on that anyway.

I think that so long as a school's standards are either in line with how their organization defines a first dan, or in the case of an unaffiliated school, consistent with their stated standards, I'm fine with it.

My major beef is obvious monetary gouging of the customer at first dan testings that some school owners like to do.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Go to the first couple of responses on this thread and you'll see one instance, but hardly the only one.


To his credit, at least one person who used that descriptor actually did so. But he is not the only one guilty of that.


I think that so long as a school's standards are either in line with how their organization defines a first dan, or in the case of an unaffiliated school, consistent with their stated standards, I'm fine with it.

My major beef is obvious monetary gouging of the customer at first dan testings that some school owners like to do.

I dont have time to go right back through the thread, so I will have to take your word for it. I have no problem with twinfist saying it because he gladly posts his own gradings etc for others to see, but if other people are calling the black belts from specific schools or orgs "trash" or saing "they friggin suck" then I find that disappointing and uncalled for. Generalisations are no good for anybody. I will quite often give specific examples of "one" student, but wont generalise. As I said recently, I have two close mates who are kukkiwon black belts, one of them is awesome and a credit to his club and org, the other is absolutely useless (and the first to admit it). I would never say, for instance, "kukkiwon black belts are rubbish", nor would I make that generalisation about any other org for that matter, and I really hope others dont either.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Unfortunately, this section has seen a lot of negativity. I think that the moderation comments about the TKD section as a whole should tell you that it isn't just my personal opinion.

But its a new year and everyday is a new day. Everyday is an opportunity for all of us to work together to change that.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Not true! Only mine has a Glock 21 .45ACP, two spare magazines, handcuffs, 911 tool, flashlight, O.C. spray, MTM mask, Taser, spare Taser cartridge and radio. And yeah...it makes my back tired! :s85:

I stick a sword through mine when I teach geomdo. Otherwise, its unencumbered. The belt that I wore at the old school I wore for TKD and HKD, and it is a little faded and was starting to fray on the edges.

Of course if you were 'Tang' soo do instead of Kong Soo Do, you might have a navy belt instead.