I'm Not Dude!

[Sukerkin]

I can fully understand the point of view so well expressed by Ninjamon above and applaud the way she was able to use the sad affair as a tool to teach something valuable to her children :tup:.

I do think that our discourse is polarising down the line between these two extremes:

a) Those who look at the situation as an exemplar of an authority figure stepping over the line of what they think to be reasonable enforcement of the law and thus infringing the 'rights' of the citizenry.

b) Those who look at the incident from the point of view of overall social and behavioural issues as they apply to limiting the effectiveness of policing in a negative sense.

As is often the case in such matters, both sides of the argument have valid elements and, ideally, it would be good to combine the two when it comes to having policing that is effective and 'nice' at the same time.

I do happen to think that if a population becomes too enthralled with its own rights and seeks to make sure that those rights are not curtailed by the police then that population will end up with a police force that cannot do what it is supposed to.

It's a 'you can't have it both ways' situation.

This is not to say that I do not concur that there are ways and means, besides aggressive shouting and physical dominance, of obtaining the goal of compliance to social rules. I know that that is the main thrust behind many of the above posts condemning the officer in question for this incident.

 

[Drac]

It's important to remember that there are some HUGE differences between US law enforcement and British law enforcement (and, in fact, government). In the US, the basic unit of government is NOT the nation; it's the state or even, in some ways, the locality. For a law enforcement perspective, that means that the law enforcement body with the most day-to-day interaction with people is from the smallest body of government, the municipality or county (if there is no municipality). State law enforcement agencies often have full authority anywhere in the state, but only to enforce the state code. Federal bodies only have authority for violations of federal laws, which often means they only have authority if the offense somehow is seen to cross state lines. (And I'm actually over-simplifying all of this!) Each force also has it's own name for it's actual law enforcers: municipalities often have "police" and "police officers, counties typically have "sheriff's offices" and sometimes police, state bodies typically are either highway patrols or police departments (both often titled officers)... and federal LEOs are typically "agents" or "special agents."

According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, in 2004 there were more than 800,000 LEOs in approximately in more than 18,000 agencies in the US, including state, local, special jurisdictions, and federal law enforcement agencies. The numbers are almost certainly similar today. Most US law enforcement agencies are small, numbering less than 40 officers (and many are in teens or single digits).

ALl true...Yeah, I keep forgetting that Tez3 is in the UK...

 

[thardey]

It's a 'you can't have it both ways' situation.

This is not to say that I do not concur that there are ways and means, besides aggressive shouting and physical dominance, of obtaining the goal of compliance to social rules. I know that that is the main thrust behind many of the above posts condemning the officer in question for this incident.

I don't think anybody here is really defending the idea that the kids should be disrespectful to authority, nor are people lacking in frustration that disrespect in rampant in our society, and wanting to change it -- people are frustrated that this officer brought down the general level of respect for authority in general -- he added to the problem.

I mean, think back to when you were a kid, and you had to deal with adults who had lost your respect. I had a friend whose dad yelled a lot, and every time he did, I lost respect for him, because it seemed as though he yelled out of powerlessness to actually do anything.

Yes, the officer should have corrected the kid, yes, the kid may have deserved a hard object lesson (read that how you will), but the way the guy dealt with it, it just came across as impotence and frustration. The kids gonna lose respect for this guy, not learn it. I know I lost respect for him.

 

[myusername]

I'm quite late in seeing this thread so apologies if I'm repeating what others have said, but I am shocked and appalled by this policeman's attitude! He was behaving like a big bully and is actions are undefencable!

I notice some people talking about the disrespect of the youngster calling him dude but all I can see is that the kid was shaken up and in shock! I believe children should be taught to behave respectfully towards authority but there is also a case to be said for respect being earned not just learned.

When I was a kid at school I quite often got into trouble with the same teachers on a regular basis where as I had a very good relationship with most others and never pushed the boundaries. Looking back it was clear that I behaved worse around the loud and abusive teachers because they lost my respect by being aggressive and throwing what were nothing more than tantrums to exert their authority. (These were mainly PE/Games teachers and one very stern assistant headmistress!). I'm not saying that was neccesarily right but I wasn't a typical troublemaker and I believe it was something about those particular teachers that brought that behaviour out in me. The officers approach to discipline in that video reminds me very much of those teachers.

I know that many will disagree with me but I think that it is a healthier society that allows children to question authority as long as they do so respectfully. A blind faith in authority often leads to abuse -you only have to look at the historical cases of peadophilia in the catholic church to see the dangers of such a culture.

Mark

 

[LuzRD]

some very good points Mark

you reminded me of my time in high school where some teachers (those that didnt earn my respect for whatever reason) thought of me as a troublemaker. in my oppinion it is because i didnt accept what they said as "law" and was more than willing to question just about anything. and there were teachers who would show everyone respect and were treated accordingly.




do unto others as you would have them do unto you

live and let live

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
...

 

[BlackCatBonz]

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.........

there is some scripture that gives one pause for thought.

I guess the kid was getting what he was giving.

 

[KenpoTex]

my thoughts after reading through this thread...

• Was the kid being an annoying, disrespectful little ****? YES.
• Did he deserve what he got? YES! I know I was raised a little differently than many kids are today (and differently than many of my peers for that matter...). I was raised to have and show respect to everyone, especially those in positions of authority or in public service (LE, military, etc.). If, as a kid, I addressed a police officer, or for that matter any adult, as "dude," my dad would have whacked me upside the head (for the record, my dad was both Mil. and LE at different times in his life).

now for the important question:

• Should the officer have given the kid "what he deserved?" NO. I believe that in this instance, the officer lost his temper and allowed his emotions to control him. I can definately understand his frustration (as I've dealt with almost identical situations myself and would have loved to have put the little bastards on the ground), but to allow the actions of this kid to influence his in the manner that he did was unprofessional.

As has been stated, sometimes you can "be nice" if you're dealing with someone who will respond to that type of treatment. There are other times when you have to get mean because there are people who won't respond to anything but that type of language or delivery.
Allow me to borrow George Thompson's terms "Verbal Judo" and "Verbal Karate." Many times I've been able to use the Verbal Judo "Sir/Ma'am, can you help me out and do...whatever." Other times I've had to shift into the "Verbal Karate," that is, language that would blister the paint on the asphalt delivered at a volume that normally mandates hearing protection.

You have to know which is appropriate for the current situation and, many times, be able to go from one to the other and back in the same conversation.

As for what should happen to the officer...
I don't feel that he should be fired over this incident but I think he might be a better fit in a different assignment. IMO, there are two basic types of officer personalities. I'll call them the "social worker" and the "***-kicker" (hereafter "SW" and "AK"). Some people are capable of performing both roles depending on the context of the situation, other people are one or the other. To put a SW in a situation that calls for an AK is a recipe for disaster and usually does not end well because the officer cannot maintain control of the situation. Conversely, put an AK into a situation that calls for a SW and you end up with what we've seen in this video. This doesn't mean either group are "bad cops," just that they should be working in an environment appropriate to their talents. This guy would probably be better off if he was not working an assignment where he was interacting with teenaged skater-punks and tourists.

just my $0.02

 

[myusername]

my thoughts after reading through this thread...

• Was the kid being an annoying, disrespectful little ****? YES.
• Did he deserve what he got? YES! I know I was raised a little differently than many kids are today (and differently than many of my peers for that matter...). I was raised to have and show respect to everyone, especially those in positions of authority or in public service (LE, military, etc.). If, as a kid, I addressed a police officer, or for that matter any adult, as "dude," my dad would have whacked me upside the head (for the record, my dad was both Mil. and LE at different times in his life).

now for the important question:

• Should the officer have given the kid "what he deserved?" NO. I believe that in this instance, the officer lost his temper and allowed his emotions to control him. I can definately understand his frustration (as I've dealt with almost identical situations myself and would have loved to have put the little bastards on the ground), but to allow the actions of this kid to influence his in the manner that he did was unprofessional.

As has been stated, sometimes you can "be nice" if you're dealing with someone who will respond to that type of treatment. There are other times when you have to get mean because there are people who won't respond to anything but that type of language or delivery.
Allow me to borrow George Thompson's terms "Verbal Judo" and "Verbal Karate." Many times I've been able to use the Verbal Judo "Sir/Ma'am, can you help me out and do...whatever." Other times I've had to shift into the "Verbal Karate," that is, language that would blister the paint on the asphalt delivered at a volume that normally mandates hearing protection.

You have to know which is appropriate for the current situation and, many times, be able to go from one to the other and back in the same conversation.

As for what should happen to the officer...
I don't feel that he should be fired over this incident but I think he might be a better fit in a different assignment. IMO, there are two basic types of officer personalities. I'll call them the "social worker" and the "***-kicker" (hereafter "SW" and "AK"). Some people are capable of performing both roles depending on the context of the situation, other people are one or the other. To put a SW in a situation that calls for an AK is a recipe for disaster and usually does not end well because the officer cannot maintain control of the situation. Conversely, put an AK into a situation that calls for a SW and you end up with what we've seen in this video. This doesn't mean either group are "bad cops," just that they should be working in an environment appropriate to their talents. This guy would probably be better off if he was not working an assignment where he was interacting with teenaged skater-punks and tourists.

just my $0.02

I think I agree with you on some points in this post. Mostly when you say that the officer in question acted unprofessionally and I particularly like the "verbal Judo" and "Verbal Karate" example! However, let us agree to disagree on your assessment of the teenager in the clip as you seem to see a disrespectful brat/skaterboy whereas I see a frightened teenager not knowing how to respond to sudden aggression and I doubt we will meet in middle on that point!

The thing that interests me in this post is the idea that you need both personalities ("social workers" SW and "*** kickers" AK) in a policeforce and that with some psychological profiling it may be possible to match the personality type to the task. I can see where you are coming from when you say that some situations require a softly, softly approach whilst others require a very firm no nonsense approach but I can't see why an intelligent professional would not be able to manage both.

Surely both the SW and AK are bad cops because one is too passive to be truly effective and the other too aggressive. I believe an aggressive personality is going to be no better than a passive one in maintaining boundaries as esculating a situation is more likely to lead to further boundary pushing and increase the risk of aggression being met with aggression. Both passive and aggressive people are ineffective authority figures and a liability to their colleagues and the general public.

What people expect from police officers is for them to be assertive. Being assertive is very different from being passive and worlds away from being aggressive! An assertive person is not a pushover, an assertive person will set very clear and firm boundaries whilst still communicating respect for the individual. I think that both passive and aggressive personality types would be dangerous in a police force and would fail to benefit any situation. If I dialled 999 (911 for you guys!) I would expect and want a police officer to attend not a social worker or an *** kicker.

 

[Tez3]

Myusername, you've hit the nail on the head precisely! An assertive personality is exactly the type who can control most situations and makes the best police officer. I was taught and firmly believe that once you start shouting you have lost control of the situation, if the lads were going to hit him with the skateboards he wouldn't have seen it coming, if the lads were winding him up he let them succeed and control the situation.


"What people expect from police officers is for them to be assertive. Being assertive is very different from being passive and worlds away from being aggressive! An assertive person is not a pushover, an assertive person will set very clear and firm boundaries whilst still communicating respect for the individual. I think that both passive and aggressive personality types would be dangerous in a police force and would fail to benefit any situation. If I dialled 999 (911 for you guys!) I would expect and want a police officer to attend not a social worker or an *** kicker."

Absolutely spot on and exactly right!

 

[KenpoTex]

myusername, your definition of assertive fits with the type of person I had in mind when I mentioned someone that could handle both roles or deal with situations on opposite ends of the spectrum. I could/should have communicated that more clearly and elaborated a little more.

 

[Guardian]

Same guy, another civilian.

Seem like this Officer (and I'll use that term loosely) here as a anger problem for people just enjoying themselfs.

Abuse of power will sooner or later get himself killed or someone else killed. He'll run into the wrong person not doing anything significantly law breaking and start his pushing them around and someone will snap and then what?

How long do you let abuse go on before something bad happens. We'll see.

G

 

[MJS]

I guess the kid was getting what he was giving.

Hmm..are we watching the same clip here? IIRC, I didn't see the kid acting like a nutcase like the cop was doing.

 

[BlackCatBonz]

Hmm..are we watching the same clip here? IIRC, I didn't see the kid acting like a nutcase like the cop was doing.

I think it's pretty nutty to disrespect the police.
If a police officer gives you an order.....you follow it.

 

[Kwan Jang]

I am the son of a former LEO and something my father always told me when he was in that professions was "if you don't respect what the badge stands for, no one else will". Based on what was shown on that video, that meter maid (er... officer) has an incredible case of "blue fever" and needs to remember that to "protect and serve" is his job.

I am not a liberal and I really go out of my way to support LEO's and give them the benefit of the doubt (I am even a certified tactical trainer), but this guy needs to remember that if he doesn't respect the public he serves (even kids), then they will lose respect for him and his department. If that happens, then that little piece of metal (badge) is more of a target than protection.

 

[LuzRD]

I think its pretty nutty to believe that someone will always be in the right simply because they were hired for a specific job.

I think its pretty nutty for a cop to disrespect civilians.

I think its pretty nutty when a civilian refuses to question authority, and trusts in strangers to do the right thing.

I think its pretty nutty that not only do some people want to be controled, but that they also want the rest of us to comply and serve their masters.

I think its pretty nutty that in America i consider so many people to be anything but American.

 

[Tez3]

I think it's pretty nutty to disrespect the police.
If a police officer gives you an order.....you follow it.

A police officers job isn't to exact revenge for wrong doings.It's not even to decide whether someone is guilty or not. They can arrest people who in their opinion have broken the law, from there it's to be decided by the justice system not the police officer who should remain objective at all times. Is that hard, yes it is but it's the way it should be done. It's not a job that should be ruled by an individuals ego.
Why should you automatically follow an 'order' from a police officer? I don't expect instant obedience of the military type, I always try to explain first why I want someone to do something. It's how I'd want to be talked to, as an intelligent adult, it also produces better results and less aggression, alsway a good thing. A sense of humour is a wonderful tool by the way. Ok many people we talk to aren't intelligent adults but they should be spoken to as if they are.Yes there are situations where you don't have time to talk but that's when you need a clear head and have the ability to think on your feet.
People can disrespect the police but part of a police officers job is not to be dragged down to that level, to remain calm, assertive ( as has already been well pointed out) and in control of the situation.

 

[MJS]

I think it's pretty nutty to disrespect the police.
If a police officer gives you an order.....you follow it.

And considering that a LEO deals with a wide variety of people, he/she needs to, or should, adjust their attitude for each situation. I agree, people should respect the police. Some do and some don't. This cop started off on the wrong foot from the beginning. This kid wasn't a threat to the cop. If he had his Ipod in, its possible he didn't hear him. I'm not defending the kid, I'm stating a possibility.

He takes 1 board away. What about the others? He could have very easily spoken firm, without acting like a nut.

One has to wonder...would he have acted like that had he been dealing with older people?

 

[MJS]

I am the son of a former LEO and something my father always told me when he was in that professions was "if you don't respect what the badge stands for, no one else will". Based on what was shown on that video, that meter maid (er... officer) has an incredible case of "blue fever" and needs to remember that to "protect and serve" is his job.

I am not a liberal and I really go out of my way to support LEO's and give them the benefit of the doubt (I am even a certified tactical trainer), but this guy needs to remember that if he doesn't respect the public he serves (even kids), then they will lose respect for him and his department. If that happens, then that little piece of metal (badge) is more of a target than protection.

Exactly! I most likely would not be typing this right now, had I acted like this cop, when I worked in Corrections. Imagine talking like that to someone, who is facing life in prison? The guy has nothing to lose by taking a swing at me, stabbing me or worse. Whats going to happen...a few days without visits or phone? Not a big loss for someone like that.

My point is, despite an inmate having the potential to be the biggest dirtbag walking, I still needed to respect them. I'm not saying let them walk all over me, but as I always say, respect is a 2 way street.

 

[taitsechien]

i've only been skimming peoples responses to this... but my personal belief is that a police officer doesn't deserve respect just for wearing a badge and carrying a gun... a person who bullys 14 year old kids cause he can needs to get punched in the head... the sad truth of our society is that he can hide behind that badge and manhandle little kids... if that kid was my kid... i'd try to fight the cop... i'd try real hard... and unfortunately i'd go to jail... the kid may have been breaking the law... but he wasn't skateboarding anymore... the cop could have just said get lost... and went to deal with real criminals... but instead... (and i can't get over this) manhandles the kid and puts him to the ground... seriously wtf... he is just a bully, straight up, not a person that deserves any respect from anyone... if a cop wants my respect they should be out there trying to help people rather than pushing people smaller then them... no only smaller than them, but obviously oblivious to whats going on... that kid could have never expected a grown man to act like such a fool... calling someone dude is not disrespectful, and if you think it is wouldn't it make more sense to explain that in a civilized tone, than yelling it at the top of your lungs like a moron.... wooo glad i got that out of my symptom...

 

[myusername]

A police officers job isn't to exact revenge for wrong doings.It's not even to decide whether someone is guilty or not. They can arrest people who in their opinion have broken the law, from there it's to be decided by the justice system not the police officer who should remain objective at all times. Is that hard, yes it is but it's the way it should be done. It's not a job that should be ruled by an individuals ego.
Why should you automatically follow an 'order' from a police officer? I don't expect instant obedience of the military type, I always try to explain first why I want someone to do something. It's how I'd want to be talked to, as an intelligent adult, it also produces better results and less aggression, alsway a good thing. A sense of humour is a wonderful tool by the way. Ok many people we talk to aren't intelligent adults but they should be spoken to as if they are.Yes there are situations where you don't have time to talk but that's when you need a clear head and have the ability to think on your feet.
People can disrespect the police but part of a police officers job is not to be dragged down to that level, to remain calm, assertive ( as has already been well pointed out) and in control of the situation.

This is the only kind of person you want in the police! This kind of policeman is a human being doing a difficult job and will always have my respect and the respect of the public. How very different from the abusive monster that is Officer Riverie -(probably spelt the dudes name wrong but I guess I really don't have enough respect for this guy to look it up and spell it correctly!)