The Sir Sandwich - "Sir, yes Sir!

[Metal]

Just watched a few TKD videos on YouTube and stumbled upon one American dojang video inbetween.

I don't mean to insult anyone who's using the "Sir, yes Sir" procedure in his dojang, but I have to say that I find it a little bit silly when it's being yelled as if people were in a military bootcamp. And even annoying after a while. In my opinion there's other ways to pay attention and show respect towards the instructor.

How common is the Sir Sandwich in the US?

And the Double-Sir makes it sound soooo exaggerated.

Do people even still use it in the military?

 

[arnisador]

It does seem somewhat common in the TKD world--I'm not sure why. In most schools I've always called people sensei or whatever and on occasion said "Yes, sir" but nothing like this.

I think some segments of the military use it in initial training--but not even all of them.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

It is absolutely required in Marine Corps boot camp. Not afterwards.

When in boot camp, one is first told that one does not speak of oneself in the first person. There is no more "I" until after boot camp graduation. One can describe oneself as "the Private."

The first and last words out of a recruit's mouth is 'Sir' (or Ma'am as required).

The only appropriate responses to questions requiring a yes or no answer are "Sir, yes sir," "Sir, no sir," or "Sir, the Private does not know but will find out, sir."

When given an instruction or an order, the recruit responds "Sir (repeat the command to ensure it is understood), aye aye sir!" The recruit then does a proper 'about face' and performs the required at utmost speed and with precision and enthusiasm.

This is often seen as 'brainwashing' or 'dehumanizing' by outsiders who do not understand our ways. But we do not care, our ways are not for them to understand. The Marine Corps does what it does for a reason.

How this applies to TKD I could not tell you. There are many US Marines who learned martial arts in Japan or Okinawa and now teach them in the USA, so it is not uncommon to hear Marine Corps terms and some of the discipline of that service in use. For those who do not wish to do it, I suggest finding another instructor or getting with the program. Nobody is going to die if they have to say "Sir, yes sir" from time to time.

In our dojo, it's not done. Our Sensei asks that we show each other respect. We address each other as "mister" or "miss" and their first or last name, and we refer to Sensei as "Sensei." I do sometimes correct the youngest children when they address sensei by saying "yeah" or "I don't wanna" or something disrespectful like that. Can't help it, my inner Marine comes out and I bow up a bit. If the kids can't take it, then can do pushups. Life is like that sometimes.

 

[chrispillertkd]

Just watched a few TKD videos on YouTube and stumbled upon one American dojang video inbetween.

I don't mean to insult anyone who's using the "Sir, yes Sir" procedure in his dojang, but I have to say that I find it a little bit silly when it's being yelled as if people were in a military bootcamp. And even annoying after a while. In my opinion there's other ways to pay attention and show respect towards the instructor.

How common is the Sir Sandwich in the US?

And the Double-Sir makes it sound soooo exaggerated.

Do people even still use it in the military?

I've never heard of a Taekwon-Do school have students do this. Referring to the instructor, or students who are senior to you, as "sir" or "ma'am" is quite common (in fact, I can't think of any TKD Dojang where I've not seent his be the case at least during training). But it's not in the "Sir, yes, sir" vein, just "Yes, sir." Not too much on the yelling, either, now that I think about it. Just answering in a normal voice but using "sir" or "ma'am" since Taekwon-Do places high currency on using courtesy and etiquette.

I'd be interested in seeing what the school you described does in a non-training context. I always refer to my instructors as either "Master" and "Mrs." or "Sir" and "Ma'am," (or the Korean titles Suhyun nim and Sabum nim) whether we're in class or not. I can't imagine people yelling "Sir, yes, sir!" to their instructor outside of class!

Pax,

Chris

 

[Tez3]

A good many soldiers can say 'sir' and make it sound like an insult. :boing2:

 

[rlobrecht]

We don't use the sir sandwich at our school. Black belts are called Mr. First name, regardless of age, except in the black belt class. Adults are called Mr. First name regardless of rank. The school owner is called Mr. Last name or sabumnim. Our branch instructor is occasionally called Kyosanim, but usually just Mr. First name. There are a few places in class where a simple normal voice yes sir is the response to an instruction.

Basically just polite behavior.

Rick

 

[rlobrecht]

A good many soldiers can say 'sir' and make it sound like an insult. :boing2:

I saw a comedian once who talked about the use of ma'am in retail. The jist of the joke was that you should replace ma'am with b*ch to get the true intent of the clerk.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

A good many soldiers can say 'sir' and make it sound like an insult. :boing2:

A Marine recruit can do that too. Once. He or she will not repeat that particular mistake.

 

[Dirty Dog]

We don't use the Sir Sandwich either. It's either Master Valdez or Sabumnim. Blackbelts are "Mr/Mrs/Miss" Lastname, as are adults of any rank.

We don't even flog students who forget...

 

[Tames D]

It is absolutely required in Marine Corps boot camp. Not afterwards.

When in boot camp, one is first told that one does not speak of oneself in the first person. There is no more "I" until after boot camp graduation. One can describe oneself as "the Private."

The first and last words out of a recruit's mouth is 'Sir' (or Ma'am as required).

The only appropriate responses to questions requiring a yes or no answer are "Sir, yes sir," "Sir, no sir," or "Sir, the Private does not know but will find out, sir."

When given an instruction or an order, the recruit responds "Sir (repeat the command to ensure it is understood), aye aye sir!" The recruit then does a proper 'about face' and performs the required at utmost speed and with precision and enthusiasm.

This is often seen as 'brainwashing' or 'dehumanizing' by outsiders who do not understand our ways. But we do not care, our ways are not for them to understand. The Marine Corps does what it does for a reason.

How this applies to TKD I could not tell you. There are many US Marines who learned martial arts in Japan or Okinawa and now teach them in the USA, so it is not uncommon to hear Marine Corps terms and some of the discipline of that service in use. For those who do not wish to do it, I suggest finding another instructor or getting with the program. Nobody is going to die if they have to say "Sir, yes sir" from time to time.

In our dojo, it's not done. Our Sensei asks that we show each other respect. We address each other as "mister" or "miss" and their first or last name, and we refer to Sensei as "Sensei." I do sometimes correct the youngest children when they address sensei by saying "yeah" or "I don't wanna" or something disrespectful like that. Can't help it, my inner Marine comes out and I bow up a bit. If the kids can't take it, then can do pushups. Life is like that sometimes.

Outsiders don't realize that there is a method to the madness in the Marine Corps. It's hard to explain.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Went to a seminar with the late Joe Lewis. Hosted him once. Since our habit is to address instructors as "Sir" he responded to me by saying "You see any bars on my shoulder? don't call me sir!" I gusess he was proud not to be thought of as an "Officer".

 

[Tez3]

Went to a seminar with the late Joe Lewis. Hosted him once. Since our habit is to address instructors as "Sir" he responded to me by saying "You see any bars on my shoulder? don't call me sir!" I gusess he was proud not to be thought of as an "Officer".

It's a squaddie thing here that if you address someone who is not an officer as 'sir' he will come back with 'don't call me sir, I work for a living!' 'Sir' isn't used much here in the UK for anyone. We don't like the servility it implies even in the military. It's used there of course but much more likely you will get , 'yes,boss' even for officers, sir is for people you don't respect, boss for people you do. It's probably much more of a class thing in the UK than it is in the States, you don't have to put up with the aristocrats.

 

[Dirty Dog]

It's a squaddie thing here that if you address someone who is not an officer as 'sir' he will come back with 'don't call me sir, I work for a living!' 'Sir' isn't used much here in the UK for anyone. We don't like the servility it implies even in the military. It's used there of course but much more likely you will get , 'yes,boss' even for officers, sir is for people you don't respect, boss for people you do. It's probably much more of a class thing in the UK than it is in the States, you don't have to put up with the aristocrats.

We don't?????

It's a mistake to assume that just because they didn't inherit family titles, we don't have our entitled aristocracy.

 

[WaterGal]

Hmm I've never seen this before. We go "Yes sir!", and a little more, uh, military-style I guess than normal speaking voice, but not like that.

 

[Tez3]

We don't?????

It's a mistake to assume that just because they didn't inherit family titles, we don't have our entitled aristocracy.

Your's though are Nouveau Riche who everyone looks down on lol, ours are poverty stricken aristos who have been living off us since at least 1066!

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Went to a seminar with the late Joe Lewis. Hosted him once. Since our habit is to address instructors as "Sir" he responded to me by saying "You see any bars on my shoulder? don't call me sir!" I gusess he was proud not to be thought of as an "Officer".

The use of the term 'sir' and 'maam' for officers of the US military goes, I believe, to the commission itself, which states that the US recognizes so-and-so as an "Officer and a Gentleman," as made famous by the movie of the same name. An enlisted person of any rank may lead, or take charge of or control of men, but does not command. Only officers may command troops. Enlisted men serve for periods of time specified by enlistment contracts, while officers serve at the discretion of Congress and may (if all other obligations are discharged, such as financial) resign their commissions as active-duty officers at any time. Officers are subject to being recalled into the military (theoretically) at any time in their lives; enlisted men whose active and inactive obligations have expired cannot be recalled involuntarily.

Enlisted men do not like to be addressed as 'sir' unless they are Drill Instructors at one of the recruit training depots. We use the term for all Marines when we are recruits. When we graduate boot camp and become Marines, we use the term only for officers, not enlisted. Hence, enlisted men who are 'sirred' accidentally will say just what you quoted.

On the other hand, in the Marine Corps, we do not abbreviate most ranks. A sergeant is not 'sarge' for example. That's Army talk. And if a person is a 'Staff Sergeant,' we call him or her that, not 'Sergeant'. Accepted familiar terms exist, however. Gunnery Sergeants can be referred to as 'Gunny' by other Marines, and a Master Sergeant can be called 'Top'. One can try using the term 'Master Guns' to refer to a Master Gunnery Sergeant, but most lower ranks would probably not dare.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

We dont call anyone sir, nor do we expect to be called sir. If I called my instructor sir, he would laugh his *** off.

 

[Metal]

Thanx everybody for the insight!

In Germany we have two ways to address people. The formal 'Sie' and informal 'du' (in English both terms are translated as 'you'). In nearly all clubs that I've trained at or visited people use the informal way of saying 'du' and using the first name. Unless when training under older Korean masters. That's when nearly everybody uses 'Sie' and adresses them as Meister (Master) Lastname. Oh, and when you meet older people you don't know yet in person you'll address them as 'Sie'.

When being asked if we understood something we would just say 'yes' or nod.

 

[Gnarlie]

It's 'du' at our club too.

Gnarlie

 

[Tez3]

We dont call anyone sir, nor do we expect to be called sir. If I called my instructor sir, he would laugh his *** off.

Same with us.