Danjo
Master Black Belt
That was the one with the Taj Mahal being pictured as my dojo.
I thought it was gone for good, but I found it was still up:
http://www.geocities.com/danjo.rm/kayraytay.html
Last edited:
The Shaolin in SKK
- Thread starter Jonny Figgis
- Start date
That was the one with the Taj Mahal being pictured as my dojo.
I thought it was gone for good, but I found it was still up:
http://www.geocities.com/danjo.rm/kayraytay.html
OP
Jonny Figgis
Yellow Belt
- Thread Starter
- #42
Thanks Danjo, I'm glad I'm on the right track with this one.
There is a problem how people define lineage regarding GM Villari which explains where the "Shaolin" aspect comes into play.
Villari did earn his black belt from GM Cerio. GM Cerio was a black belt under GM Pesare. But GM Cerio also trained and was given a black belt in 1967 from William Chow, eventually Cerio was awarded his 5th degree in 1971.
GM Villari began his training under Cerio AFTER Cerio was a black belt with Chow. Chow reportedly studied Shaolin Kung Fu and Kenpo jiu-jitsu then combined the two into what he called a number of names including Shaolin Kenpo.
GM Villari trained with Cerio until approximately 1971 and therefore was taught the Chow Shaolin Kenpo via GM Cerio.
I began traing with GM Villari and James Bryant in the Dedham, MA. studio in the mid 1970's, becoming a full time instructor and awarded my Shodan rank in 1980. At this time GM Villari's style was called Chinese Kenpo jiu-jitsu. In the early 1980's the name was changed to Shaolin Kempo Karate. This was long after the tv, hollywood Kung Fu craze of the 1970's. I have all of my rank diplomas showing the names of the system during the specific time frames. The Shaolin term within the style is not meant to state the style is Shaolin Kung Fu but that some Shaolin type techniques and theories are applied within the system. The Shaolin comes from Professor Chow to GM Cerio to GM Villari. Many people seem to take offense to GM Villari utilizing the Shaolin name but in reality that comes from Chow who Villari has a direct connection to via his lineage, GM Villari then formed his own style and utilized the Shaolin term as part of the style name.
One simply has to go back through all of the so called Kenpo/Kempo masters and see that they all took what they learned from their teachers, applied there own theories and experiences and created a new, sub-set, style of Kenpo.
It always seem that this theory is ok for Masters such as Parker, Emperado, Castro and so on but Villari's system and how he achieved it is always questioned. The truth be told many kenpo masters were just Shodan rank when they went on there own, continued training and then named there own style.
Having trained with and worked for GM Villari personally I cant attest to his ability and the quality of his students, at least in the 1970's. Back then one common denominator existed in most all of Master Villari, Cerio and Pesare black belts in New England; they could fight, in or out of the dojo. For all of these instructors to be able to turn out so many quality black belts shows that regardless of the name the basic system, applied correctly by people willing to learn, works.
Villari did earn his black belt from GM Cerio. GM Cerio was a black belt under GM Pesare. But GM Cerio also trained and was given a black belt in 1967 from William Chow, eventually Cerio was awarded his 5th degree in 1971.
GM Villari began his training under Cerio AFTER Cerio was a black belt with Chow. Chow reportedly studied Shaolin Kung Fu and Kenpo jiu-jitsu then combined the two into what he called a number of names including Shaolin Kenpo.
GM Villari trained with Cerio until approximately 1971 and therefore was taught the Chow Shaolin Kenpo via GM Cerio.
I began traing with GM Villari and James Bryant in the Dedham, MA. studio in the mid 1970's, becoming a full time instructor and awarded my Shodan rank in 1980. At this time GM Villari's style was called Chinese Kenpo jiu-jitsu. In the early 1980's the name was changed to Shaolin Kempo Karate. This was long after the tv, hollywood Kung Fu craze of the 1970's. I have all of my rank diplomas showing the names of the system during the specific time frames. The Shaolin term within the style is not meant to state the style is Shaolin Kung Fu but that some Shaolin type techniques and theories are applied within the system. The Shaolin comes from Professor Chow to GM Cerio to GM Villari. Many people seem to take offense to GM Villari utilizing the Shaolin name but in reality that comes from Chow who Villari has a direct connection to via his lineage, GM Villari then formed his own style and utilized the Shaolin term as part of the style name.
One simply has to go back through all of the so called Kenpo/Kempo masters and see that they all took what they learned from their teachers, applied there own theories and experiences and created a new, sub-set, style of Kenpo.
It always seem that this theory is ok for Masters such as Parker, Emperado, Castro and so on but Villari's system and how he achieved it is always questioned. The truth be told many kenpo masters were just Shodan rank when they went on there own, continued training and then named there own style.
Having trained with and worked for GM Villari personally I cant attest to his ability and the quality of his students, at least in the 1970's. Back then one common denominator existed in most all of Master Villari, Cerio and Pesare black belts in New England; they could fight, in or out of the dojo. For all of these instructors to be able to turn out so many quality black belts shows that regardless of the name the basic system, applied correctly by people willing to learn, works.
Danjo
Master Black Belt
Not according to Cerio or the films of Pesare from the early 1960's which show the current SKK techniques and forms. Cerio passed on to Villari what he got from Pesare. His renovation of his system was after Villari left. When Joe Shuras and his wife left to train with Cerio, he told them that he could either "clean up what they had" from Villari which was the system that he no longer taught, or else they could start all over again with his new system. They opted for cleaning up the SKK they learned from Villari.
As I said above, if you look at the techniques that Pesare and his guys were doing from the early 1960's, it is pretty much the same as what SKK is doing now in terms of the basic techniques and forms. That tells me that there wasn't a lot of direct Chow influence in what Villari learned from Cerio.
Also, Cerio barely trained at all with Chow. Perhaps three weeks total time and then some time with Bill Chun Sr. who was one of Chow's black belts. This is all admitted to by Cerio and those that were there. Cerio also sought out training with Ed Parker and others a well when creating his new system.
The only one that I know that was told directly to call his art "Shaolin Kenpo" by Prof. Chow was Ralph Castro.
I don't disagree with you that Castro was told by Chow to use the name of Shaolin Kenpo.
I respectfully disagree with you regarding the Chow to Cerio to Villari connection.
Cerio trained with Pesare and recieved his black belt in the early to mid sixties. Cerio began training with Chow from approximately 1966 to 1971. I can not state the amount or time of training but Chow did award Cerio his Shodan in 1967 and his fifth degree in 1971 so I would have to think there was a considerable amount of training to reach such high ranking.
Cerio did train with GM Parker as you state and Cerio did start Nick Cerio Kempo with the blessing of Chow. Cerio formed his own system in the 1970's after training with Chow and Parker.
My only point is that Villari began training with Cerio AFTER Cerio was a black belt awarded by Chow. That being the case it is reasonable to assume that what Cerio taught Villari was some type of combination of what Cerio had learned from his previous instructors; Chow and Pesare. This would show why films of Pesare and Cerio in the 1960's would resemble what SKK later taught.
I in no way mean to disparage any of the Masters I referred to in my post. I am only a student and in no way would I disrespect any of the recognized Kempo Masters from Chow to Castro to Parker or Emperado, etc. I am only pointing out what I know to be the facts.
There were clearly many political issues regarding all of the people who went off on there own. I have trained in Villari's first brand of kempo and under instructors who then went to GM Cerio after a break from GM Villari in the "cleaned up" version. Many of these instructors now deny any connection to Villari although he was there original instructor. Thats there decision not mine.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that if numerous people can rename their Kenpo which is evidenced by the numerous names for a similiar style then why not Villari. My other point is that whatever you call it as long as you were trained properly the system is very street effective, I know this from personal experience and am grateful to everyone before me who molded and modified the system to what its become.
Please don't take my post as a negative attack on anyone, these are the facts as I recall them and via internet research. Kenponet has an extensive Kenpo family tree and it clearly lists GM Cerio as a Chow black belt and then onto Villari. I realize Cerio is also a Pesare black belt via the Chow-Emperado-Gascon lineage my point being Villari began his training with Cerio after Cerio had already been awarded black belts from both Pesare and Chow. This would show why there are so many similiarities in the multitude of kenpo styles.
I respectfully disagree with you regarding the Chow to Cerio to Villari connection.
Cerio trained with Pesare and recieved his black belt in the early to mid sixties. Cerio began training with Chow from approximately 1966 to 1971. I can not state the amount or time of training but Chow did award Cerio his Shodan in 1967 and his fifth degree in 1971 so I would have to think there was a considerable amount of training to reach such high ranking.
Cerio did train with GM Parker as you state and Cerio did start Nick Cerio Kempo with the blessing of Chow. Cerio formed his own system in the 1970's after training with Chow and Parker.
My only point is that Villari began training with Cerio AFTER Cerio was a black belt awarded by Chow. That being the case it is reasonable to assume that what Cerio taught Villari was some type of combination of what Cerio had learned from his previous instructors; Chow and Pesare. This would show why films of Pesare and Cerio in the 1960's would resemble what SKK later taught.
I in no way mean to disparage any of the Masters I referred to in my post. I am only a student and in no way would I disrespect any of the recognized Kempo Masters from Chow to Castro to Parker or Emperado, etc. I am only pointing out what I know to be the facts.
There were clearly many political issues regarding all of the people who went off on there own. I have trained in Villari's first brand of kempo and under instructors who then went to GM Cerio after a break from GM Villari in the "cleaned up" version. Many of these instructors now deny any connection to Villari although he was there original instructor. Thats there decision not mine.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that if numerous people can rename their Kenpo which is evidenced by the numerous names for a similiar style then why not Villari. My other point is that whatever you call it as long as you were trained properly the system is very street effective, I know this from personal experience and am grateful to everyone before me who molded and modified the system to what its become.
Please don't take my post as a negative attack on anyone, these are the facts as I recall them and via internet research. Kenponet has an extensive Kenpo family tree and it clearly lists GM Cerio as a Chow black belt and then onto Villari. I realize Cerio is also a Pesare black belt via the Chow-Emperado-Gascon lineage my point being Villari began his training with Cerio after Cerio had already been awarded black belts from both Pesare and Chow. This would show why there are so many similiarities in the multitude of kenpo styles.
Danjo
Master Black Belt
Well, pretty much everyone that was around knows that Cerio had less than a month of training with Prof. Chow. It's not really something anyone contends at this point. Write to Bill Chun Jr. and ask him about it. As to the black belts that Chow awarded Cerio... check out what art it was in.
I'll post some more information after I've gone back through my files.
I'll post some more information after I've gone back through my files.
I would like to make one more point in my belief of the Chow to Cerio to Villari lineage and that involves the kata Hansuki.
The form was taught by Chow to Cerio, to Cerio's brother and then to Villari. That specific kata does not exist, nor taught in the Pesare lineage.
Cerio could only have learned it from Chow and Villari only from Cerio which shows me that Villari was taught by Cerio from both the Pesare and Chow training.
I'm sure Professor Shuras or Joseph Rebello can expound on this specific subject and link with knowledge.
Thank you.
The form was taught by Chow to Cerio, to Cerio's brother and then to Villari. That specific kata does not exist, nor taught in the Pesare lineage.
Cerio could only have learned it from Chow and Villari only from Cerio which shows me that Villari was taught by Cerio from both the Pesare and Chow training.
I'm sure Professor Shuras or Joseph Rebello can expound on this specific subject and link with knowledge.
Thank you.
Danjo
Master Black Belt
Cerio learned Hon Suki from Bill Chun Sr., not Chow. Chun is the one who created the form.
Twin Fist
Grandmaster
i didnt know that Danjo was a shodan in martial arts history too!!
Well I stand corrected, if your right.
So if you are correct Cerio learned Hansuki ( maybe my spelling is wrong) from Chun.
If thats correct as you state then Cerio learned it from Chun, Cerio then trained Villari.
So then Villari was trained by Cerio who was trained and studied with Pesare, Chow, Parker and Chun. If thats correct, as you state, then Villari appears to have a pretty good lineage of instructors to back up his system.
I'm sure my Villari kenpo seniors like Prof. Shuras, Joe Rebello and GM Cunningham can verify the truth of the matter, whatever that is.
Please understand I'm not trying to take a negative position with you I'm just tired of hearing GM Villari constantly referred to as if he is not worthy of his position yet people in his lineage are considered true Masters.
My training with Mr. Villari literally saved my life. I left my position in the original USSD and worked for twenty six years in high risk law enforcement assignments where I was forced to fight for my life on a number of occasions. I'm here today because of the training I learned via Mr. Villari, James Bryant and others which I was able to use on the street where ultimately it counts.
Regarding GM Cerio's BB staus from Prof. Chow, according to you it was not real and/or not from Prof. Chow's system.
I don't know but if Chow was simply assigning rank as you infer then I guess all subsequent rank from Chow is not legitimate going on your theory.
If thats correct then all of the BB rank Chow awarded to Emperado, Parker et al is apparently illegitimate. Therefore subsequent rank to Gascon, Chapel, Tracy and Pesare would also be suspect.
I hope not because then were all illegitimate.
What I've read about Prof. Chow I don't think he would just "give out" advanced ranking for no reason.
So if you are correct Cerio learned Hansuki ( maybe my spelling is wrong) from Chun.
If thats correct as you state then Cerio learned it from Chun, Cerio then trained Villari.
So then Villari was trained by Cerio who was trained and studied with Pesare, Chow, Parker and Chun. If thats correct, as you state, then Villari appears to have a pretty good lineage of instructors to back up his system.
I'm sure my Villari kenpo seniors like Prof. Shuras, Joe Rebello and GM Cunningham can verify the truth of the matter, whatever that is.
Please understand I'm not trying to take a negative position with you I'm just tired of hearing GM Villari constantly referred to as if he is not worthy of his position yet people in his lineage are considered true Masters.
My training with Mr. Villari literally saved my life. I left my position in the original USSD and worked for twenty six years in high risk law enforcement assignments where I was forced to fight for my life on a number of occasions. I'm here today because of the training I learned via Mr. Villari, James Bryant and others which I was able to use on the street where ultimately it counts.
Regarding GM Cerio's BB staus from Prof. Chow, according to you it was not real and/or not from Prof. Chow's system.
I don't know but if Chow was simply assigning rank as you infer then I guess all subsequent rank from Chow is not legitimate going on your theory.
If thats correct then all of the BB rank Chow awarded to Emperado, Parker et al is apparently illegitimate. Therefore subsequent rank to Gascon, Chapel, Tracy and Pesare would also be suspect.
I hope not because then were all illegitimate.
What I've read about Prof. Chow I don't think he would just "give out" advanced ranking for no reason.
Well, I guess you stand corrected. I've looked into it a little myself.
Yes.
The early parts, yes. The upper black belt material reflects GM Villari's 'creativity'.
Yes, they can. GM Cunningham has been especially forthright.
It's not that exactly. It's what has happened since. The early generation could fight. As the material base expanded to keep the upper belts busy, and the quality control of black belts declined to keep the franchise instructor supply coming, and the ridiculous stories accumulated to explain the history of his art compounded, that's where the questions of legitimacy came from.
That's where the disconnect is. You were there before the upper black belt forms began to resemble cheerleading choreography, and before the secret kung fu supply appeared. You studied with Jim Bryant, who hits hard, has very precise technical skill, and who has since discarded much of the 'stuff' that came along after you left. Jim Bryant used to tell stories about what they did in the early days, how it changed, and why he left. Then Mr. Bryant went back to study with Nick Cerio, and after Mr. Cerio's death, began to study with GM Pesare.
He's actually stating that the training time was about 1 month, and that it was in Kenpo in general, and not in a specific system of Chow's. I think that's as far as he was inferring.
I think the rank reflects professor Chow's judgement / assessment of Mr. Cerio. I can't infer much else from there. I think it's like a lot of ranks at that time. I think that a lot of folks skipped around in rank at those days.
Or at least pretty equal in legitamacy.
Well, see above.
I'm sure he had his reasons.
Twin Fist
Grandmaster
Not so fast.
You said "subsequent"
Emperado was already a 5th Dan under Chow in 1947 when he helped form Kajukenbo.
Parker was a Shodan from Chow PRIOR to 1960
thats not "subsequent" to the time period you are talking about. Thats PRIOR to it.
Look, the whole problem with Villari is that he promoted himself from 2nd Dan to 10th.
All that "i learned on an island from someone named lo Fat (or whatever) dont worry about if no one has ever heard of him" is just so much crap
And he dinged himself to 10th without creating a new system.
All the new material (that is, the stuff he hadnt learned from Cerio, Pesare) didnt show up for many years after he dinged himself. It doesnt work that way. You want to cal yourself Grand Master, you have to earn it by created a new system FIRST. He didnt.
"I guess all subsequent rank from Chow is not legitimate going on your theory.
If thats correct then all of the BB rank Chow awarded to Emperado, Parker et al is apparently illegitimate. Therefore subsequent rank to Gascon, Chapel, Tracy and Pesare would also be suspect."
All this is is just a passive agressive threat, a way of saying "if you say my guy is a fraud, then your guy is a fraud too"
Friad not.
Emperado helped created a whole new system
Parker created a whole new system
Neither claimed a 10th untill AFTER, in both cases MANY YEARS after they had created whole new systems.
You said "subsequent"
Emperado was already a 5th Dan under Chow in 1947 when he helped form Kajukenbo.
Parker was a Shodan from Chow PRIOR to 1960
thats not "subsequent" to the time period you are talking about. Thats PRIOR to it.
Look, the whole problem with Villari is that he promoted himself from 2nd Dan to 10th.
All that "i learned on an island from someone named lo Fat (or whatever) dont worry about if no one has ever heard of him" is just so much crap
And he dinged himself to 10th without creating a new system.
All the new material (that is, the stuff he hadnt learned from Cerio, Pesare) didnt show up for many years after he dinged himself. It doesnt work that way. You want to cal yourself Grand Master, you have to earn it by created a new system FIRST. He didnt.
"I guess all subsequent rank from Chow is not legitimate going on your theory.
If thats correct then all of the BB rank Chow awarded to Emperado, Parker et al is apparently illegitimate. Therefore subsequent rank to Gascon, Chapel, Tracy and Pesare would also be suspect."
All this is is just a passive agressive threat, a way of saying "if you say my guy is a fraud, then your guy is a fraud too"
Friad not.
Emperado helped created a whole new system
Parker created a whole new system
Neither claimed a 10th untill AFTER, in both cases MANY YEARS after they had created whole new systems.
Danjo
Master Black Belt
Firstly, I'll pretty much agree with what Matt wrote regarding Villari and when people studied with him. He's hardly the only one that went down the commercial path to mediocrity in terms of requirements for rank in his system (he now sells them via video testing).
As to Cerio and his rank from Chow, Prof. Chow would do "rank recognition" for people who were not trained in his system like many others do these days. It's not the same as saying that they had earned a black belt from him. Anyone with a black belt from Prof. Chow in Prof. Chow's art is legitimate. I have video of Nick Cerio from several decades of his life (early years with Pesare; Late 60's/early seventies on his own; 80's to 90's on his own) He was a very talented martial artist and I am in no way taking away from his ability by pointing out the rank recognition thing.
People trained harder in the "old" days. I'm not saying that they were more athletic (people do amazingly acrobatic things these days), but it was harder contact and the mentality was different. Whether it was Shotokan, TKD, Shaolin Kempo etc., schools were where fighters trained, they weren't a health club. So I have no doubt that your training has served you well and that your loyalty is justified. But we'll continue to point out the facts as we know them.
To me lineage isn't "everyone that I ever learned something from". If that were the case, then I could list a ton of martial artists that I'd met at seminars, belt tests, trained with in PE classes (took Aikido in PE in college), etc. To me lineage is the instructor that you earned your rank from, not the one who awarded you some rank in consideration for what you already knew. I feel badly for those that trained in SKK in the old days who have to put up with what has happened commercially in the system. I also feel badly for those that currently train in SKK under someone who is legit now, and trains like they used to.
punisher73
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That is a good point. I guess the issue would be, if you started your own style and you added in Aikido principles and techniques into it. Then would you include the training you got from that in your lineage? All of the Cerio bio's I have read made it sound like the training that Cerio recieved from Chow/Chun Sr. that is made an impact and he incorporated moves and ideas from that into his version of kenpo.
That aside, it should be clearly stated if you informally trained with someone and added ideas from that training into what you did versus claiming what was essentially rank recognition to make it seem like your informal training was done as a formal student and then adding that as lineage. For example, Ed Parker for instance, trained with different chinese masters and acknowledged their influence, but he was never formally a student and did not claim lineage through Ark Wong or the others.
Nor do I think that if you studied an art and achieved rank, and then created your own art and put NOTHING of that other art into it, should you have to claim that in your lineage. I still see that argument about Mitose in kenpo lineages.
Danjo
Master Black Belt
Unless I trained under someone that certified me to teach their system and issue rank in it, I wouldn't put them in my lineage, nor would they count me in their's I would think. I would acknowledge their influence, and my training under them, and they might acknowledge me as their student, but that's it.
I'll end my discussion of GM Cerio and how the "Shaolin" is in SKK by posting a link for Cerio's bio from the web page Martialinfo.com.
The bio clearly states Cerio's training with Chow and Chun including the dates of his Shodan and Godan. I mean no disprespect to anyone just trying to state the facts as I was told them. I find it hard to believe that Chow would award such high ranks to someone he never trained.
http://www.martialinfo.com/isearchd.asp?id=13615
g Jiu-jitsu, Boxing,
Shaolin Gong-fu, Karate, Kobudo, and Kenpo from George Pesare, whom he received his Black Belt from in 1966.
Around that time he sought out Professor William K.S. Chow. Before Cerio could study with Chow, he was instructed to study with one of Chow's top students, William Chun.
This was traditionally done as a test of patience, honor, and skill.
After training with William Chun, he was given permission to train under Professor Chow. On August 15, 1967, Cerio was awarded his Shodan (Black Belt) in Kenpo by William K. S. Chow, and in December 1971, Cerio was awarded his Godan (5th Degree Black Belt) in Kenpo by Chow, making him one of Professor Chow's highest ranudents at that time, and he also presented Nick Cerio with his belt.
The bio clearly states Cerio's training with Chow and Chun including the dates of his Shodan and Godan. I mean no disprespect to anyone just trying to state the facts as I was told them. I find it hard to believe that Chow would award such high ranks to someone he never trained.
http://www.martialinfo.com/isearchd.asp?id=13615
g Jiu-jitsu, Boxing,
Shaolin Gong-fu, Karate, Kobudo, and Kenpo from George Pesare, whom he received his Black Belt from in 1966.
Around that time he sought out Professor William K.S. Chow. Before Cerio could study with Chow, he was instructed to study with one of Chow's top students, William Chun.
This was traditionally done as a test of patience, honor, and skill.
After training with William Chun, he was given permission to train under Professor Chow. On August 15, 1967, Cerio was awarded his Shodan (Black Belt) in Kenpo by William K. S. Chow, and in December 1971, Cerio was awarded his Godan (5th Degree Black Belt) in Kenpo by Chow, making him one of Professor Chow's highest ranudents at that time, and he also presented Nick Cerio with his belt.
By the way I enjoyed the discussion, its good to be able to debate like gentlemen.
I learned somethings I didn't know and appreciate your input.
I do agree that the current SKK is a watered down version of what it was supposed to be, guess I'm lucky I trained in the 70's before the almighty dollar became the deciding factor.
Danjo loved your health club analogy and with your permission I'll use it with my students.
Be well.
I learned somethings I didn't know and appreciate your input.
I do agree that the current SKK is a watered down version of what it was supposed to be, guess I'm lucky I trained in the 70's before the almighty dollar became the deciding factor.
Danjo loved your health club analogy and with your permission I'll use it with my students.
Be well.
We try!
I learn new things about this all the time.
You are very lucky. The seniors I talk to miss that time, and what is done in most schools these days bear no resemblance to the training you enjoyed / endured. A lot of the better SKK guys these days are working to get back to where you started.
Thanks for your input as well, and I hope you are spreading the art as you learned it. We need more schools like that.
punisher73
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That is how I feel as well. I see so many instructors padding their resume and listing masters of styles in their lineage that they might have taken a seminar or two from, but were never a formal student.
