The rough guy

[Kung Fu Wang]

If you can't figure out how you might help your partner in that context then they won't help you either. Both people lose out on development opportunities

When we spar, of course I may throw a punch at you. I then freeze my punch in the air for 1/2 second, so you can side kick my chest. I'll still call that "partner drill" by my definition.

Your definition of "skill development" is my definition of "partner drill". It's OK. We just have different definitions.

In order to do this, we need to have mutual agreement first. In the OP's situation, I don't believe that mutual agreement has been established yet.

I don't know how to map this into the BJJ ground game training. Do you want your opponent to tab out from your choke even if he may still have the ability to counter you (so he can help you to build up your ground game confidence)?

 

[dunc]

When we spar, of course I may throw a punch at you. I then freeze my punch in the air for 1/2 second, so you can side kick my chest. I'll still call that "partner drill" by my definition.

Your definition of "skill development" is my definition of "partner drill". It's OK. We just have different definitions.

In order to do this, we need to have mutual agreement first. In the OP's situation, I don't believe that mutule agreement has been established yet.

I don't know how to map this into the BJJ ground game training. Do you want your opponent to tab out from your choke even if he may still counter you (so he can help you to build up your ground game confidence)?

That's great
I'd add that I think this is a very important point that is generally misunderstood by beginners and many academies
It's not a methodology that I just dreamt up, it comes from very successful competitors at the highest level

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

It's not a methodology that I just dreamt up, it comes from very successful competitors at the highest level

I'm interested to know how to apply this methodology
in BJJ ground game.

- Do you want your opponent to tab out from your choke even if he may still have ability to counter you?
- If you make mistake in ground game, do you expect your opponent not taking advantage on you?
- ...

In other words, how detail should the mutual agreement be established?

 

[dunc]

If you don't need to tap then don't - otherwise you're giving false positives
If you make a mistake you should always be made aware of it regardless of where you're training on the spectrum. In full sparring where there is no sense of compliance then if you make a mistake you will be brutally punished for it

For context in our academy in a typical class we spend about 20 mins on drills, 15 mins on specific sparring and 20 mins full sparring. Once a week it's 20 mins specific sparring then full sparring for the rest of the class

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If you don't need to tap then don't - otherwise you're giving false positives
If you make a mistake you should always be made aware of it regardless of where you're training on the spectrum. In full sparring where there is no sense of compliance then if you make a mistake you will be brutally punished for it

For context in our academy in a typical class we spend about 20 mins on drills, 15 mins on specific sparring and 20 mins full sparring. Once a week it's 20 mins specific sparring then full sparring for the rest of the class

The line drawing between special sparring and full sparring is not very clear. The following apply on both sparrings.

- If you don't need to tap then don't.
- If you make a mistake, you should always be made aware of it.

 

[dunc]

Those principles hold true for all training, including compliant drills

 

[HighKick]

That's technique development, not skill development. There is a difference between technique and skill (application of technique). When training with a partner, there are better skill development drills.


A better way to test a low belt's skill level is against a less disparity in belt and experience. That's why there are belt divisions in tournaments.

And we wonder why we gain weight easier as we age. Just look at the energy/calorie burn going on there!

 

[marvin8]

To have 2 different kind of development environment can be confusion.

It's natural. Your partner moves and reacts naturally. They don't freeze or act like your training dummy.

Yesterday, you let me take you down (you only resist 60%). Today, you won't let me take you down (you resist 90%). Why?

It's not about resisting. It's about training timing, positioning, understanding opponents' movement, their center, leading, push/pull, etc.

Skill development drills proven effective in fights...

Khabib Nurmagomedov

https://imgur.com/a/LwPKWBT

Kayla Harrison

https://imgur.com/2gMTwAj

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Kayla Harrison

https://imgur.com/2gMTwAj

You are talking about "You attack, I defend" sparring. The guy only plays defense. He lets the girl play offense.

I had done this a lot in my high school long fist beginner level training. When I could only play defense, I moved my head to dodge incoming punches. My long fist teacher said I had some talent in sparring.

I do agree that this kind of training has value. But it also gives you "false confidence" and doesn't tell you what you have done wrong.

When she

- punches him, he only blocks, and he doesn't punch back. When she jabs at his face, he has no intention to kick her (leg is longer than the arm).
- obtains a clinch on him, he doesn't try to break the clinch apart. He also doesn't try to throw her. When her right arm wraps around his waist, he has no intention to use "over hook" to counter her.

In order to do this, they have to get mutual agreement before the sparring. They have to agree that in this round, the girl play offense, and the guy play defense. The girl doesn't have to worry about get punched or get thrown.

When 1 plays offense and another plays defense, the sparring will not get violence and out of control (because your opponent knows that you won't attack back).

I don't think this kind of "you attack, I defend and won't counter you" training is the same situation as OP talked about when he started this thread.

(after he had elbowed me in the face and kneed me in the back of the head),

 

[marvin8]

You are still talking about "partner drill" here. The guy only plays defense. He lets the girl play offense.

I do agree that this kind of training has value. But it also gives you "false confidence" and doesn't tell you what you have done wrong.

I am talking about your "skill development" video where your partner plays neither defense nor offense (dead). Therefore, your drill gives more "false confidence" and less "what you have done wrong."

Both Kayla and Khabib are professional multiple combat sport champions, which is evidence that their skill development drills have value.

When she

- punches him, he only blocks, and he doesn't punch back. When she jabs at his face, he has no intention to kick her (leg is longer than the arm).
- obtains a clinch on him, he doesn't try to break the clinch apart. He also doesn't try to throw her. When her right arm wraps around his waist, he has no intention to use "over hook" to counter her.

In order to do this, they have to get mutual agreement before the sparring. They have to agree that in this round, the girl play offense, and the guy play defense. The girl doesn't have to worry about get punched or get thrown.

In your "skill development" video, the partner does less than that which makes it technique development not skill. Kayla's is skill development, similar to good pad work.

I don't think this kind of "you attack, I defend and won't counter you" training is the same situation as OP talked about when he started this thread.

I quoted and replied to your posts on "skill development" which I thought were in the context of the OP.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I am talking about your "skill development" video where your partner plays neither defense nor offense (dead).

There are 3 levels of training.

1. Partner drill.
2. One plays offense while other plays defense.
3. Sparring/wrestling.

Your "skill development" method is the same as my "one play offense while other play defense".

In my

- long fist training, 1, 2, 3 are all used.
- Chinese wrestling training, only 1 and 3 are used. 2 is not used. Play 100% defense is not encouraged in Chinese wrestling.

During clinch, if you use

- "head lock", I will counter you with "under hook".
- "under hook", I'll counter you with "over hook".
- "over hook", I'll counter you with "under hook".
- "waist wrap", I'll counter you with "elbow cracking".
- ...

From the nature of the Chinese wrestling grip fight, it's difficult (or not proper) to use the training method 2.

 

[marvin8]

There are 3 levels of training.

1. Partner drill.
2. One plays offense while other plays defense.
3. Sparring/wrestling.

Your "skill development" method is the same as my "one play offense while other play defense".

I only replied to what you posted, a "skill development" drill with a dead partner void of timing, energy and motion.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I only replied to what you posted, a "skill development" drill with a dead partner void of timing, energy and motion.

In your video, since your partner doesn't attack back, that's also "dead partner" by my definition.

My "dead partner" opponent at least attacks with punch or head lock.

 

[marvin8]

In your video, since your partner doesn't attack back, that's also "dead partner" by my definition.

No. That is my point—an important but perhaps subtle distinction. Khabib and Kayla's skill development drills are with an "alive" partner which doesn't have to be "resisting," which you were confused about.