What should be my goal with bigger, stronger rolling partners that are at my skill level?

[skribs]

Then you might benefit from training with someone who is stronger than you.

I do train with several who are stronger than me.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Another thing that is really helpful is to just talk to your sparring partner. Let them know what you are trying to do.

When I talk to my sparring partner I let him know that my arms are getting really tired and it makes it really difficult to defend myself when I hit that point. I'm not worried about him exploiting my weakness. He already knows when I'm tired. But what he sometimes does offer is to help me out. The last time I mentioned it to him, he invited me to join him when he lifts weights. He has also offered helpful tips, not so much with technique but with my mindset. One time he told me that he noticed that I was trying to hold on too much and he says that's common for people who don't fight on the ground. He said sometimes it's better to let go and go for a more efficient hold than to burn out on one that will never produce the result that I need.

When we talk, we always share what we were trying to do and analyzing the sessions in between breaks. That type of information is important because it helps fill in gaps that I may be missing. It helps him as well because he wants to know if what he's trying is working or if I'm countering him. Like last night he wanted to know if I was falling forward of if I was moving forward at my own will. He knows from previous sessions that I have no problem going with the flow in order to try to counter. If he does a technique then he wants to land it when I'm resisting. If I flow with it then he knows that maybe his technique wasn't effective, it was just me going with it to counter it.

If you aren't communicating with your partners like that then you will have a really long and difficult journey. The only people that didn't do this were the ones who only cared about winning or getting the best of me. If your partner cares more about developing their skills, then they will share valuable information that will help you to get better faster.

Start having these types of conversations with these people you are rolling with. Let them know what you were attempting and they'll probably tell you why you couldn't pull it off. After a while they will tell you the techniques they were trying to use on you and why they keep having success with using the technique on you.

 

[Anarax]

There's a body builder at my gym who is the same level as me, and I don't really know what I get out of rolling with him. I just get smashed, and there's not a whole lot I can do about it. I get smashed by the upper belts, but they smash me with technique instead of just brute-forcing everything. They also give me a little room to work with. There's also some other white belts that are bigger than me, but they temper their intensity so that I can get some work, too.

I'm not scared to roll with this guy. He is using jiu-jitsu techniques, and he doesn't rip submissions. He's a very nice guy. But I feel when I roll with him, I'm basically wasting 5 minutes getting beat up on, because I don't really have much that I can do against him. I know the three answers I can think of, but they don't really help.

1. Decline to roll - I don't really have any reason to, except that I don't feel I get much out of rolling with him
2. He should match my intensity - I can only control myself, not him
3. Beat him with technique - We're both the same rank, and theoretically roughly equal in technique; as I work on technique, so is he

What should be my goal when rolling with a bigger dude?

Pertaining more so to BJJ/grappling arts, I would say focus more on good positioning opposed to rushing for the submission. From my experience, rolling/sparring bigger, taller or stronger opponents, taught me the importance of setting up a technique. Learning and adapting to an opponent's abilities and traits is a critical part of a martial artist's development.

 

[Anarax]

Just going from what I read here.... it sounds like you are relying too much on your own brute strength. You just found someone who has more brute strength than you.

Your goal should be to use less strength and more technique. Go with his movements, not against them. People who did randori with Jigoro Kano said that fighting him was like fighting an empty gi.... an empty gi that won.

Here is a little old man... using technique against guys much younger, much stronger and much heavier than him:

Working with this guy is your best way to simulate what will happen out on the street. If you get attacked on the street, it won't be by clean and practiced technique... it will be by sheer brute force and determination. This guy is giving you an opportunity to experience some of that in a training scenario. Use him to learn to deal with brute force. Use him to learn to get soft and more gentle. Use him to learn not to rely on your strength.

Literally what's playing through my head when I replay the Kyuzo Mifune video

 

[skribs]

Pertaining more so to BJJ/grappling arts, I would say focus more on good positioning opposed to rushing for the submission. From my experience, rolling/sparring bigger, taller or stronger opponents, taught me the importance of setting up a technique. Learning and adapting to an opponent's abilities and traits is a critical part of a martial artist's development.

He rushes for submissions and gets them. I try and be in a good position and he just flattens me.

I'm not saying your advice is incorrect...but it doesn't really apply to me in this particular matchup.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

He rushes for submissions and gets them. I try and be in a good position and he just flattens me.

I'm not saying your advice is incorrect...but it doesn't really apply to me in this particular matchup.

Something to remember in all of this: white belt is a "holding" rank. It's just where people are until they earn a rank. So there can easily be a disparity between people's skills at this level. If I come in (with a standing grappling background and a smattering of BJJ and Judo), I have a chance of being better than someone who lacks some or all of that.

At blue belt, this is less true, because the folks who started better are likely to simply reach blue a bit quicker, but the playing field is more level once you get there.

So don't worry too much about disparities at this starting level. They are to be expected, and they won't all be in your (or anyone else's favor). Use the challenge to your benefit.

 

[Anarax]

He rushes for submissions and gets them. I try and be in a good position and he just flattens me.

I'm not saying your advice is incorrect...but it doesn't really apply to me in this particular matchup.

I can't speak on the exact person you're rolling with. However, personally, I've found that when I focus more on positioning and setting up techniques I tend to be more successful with landing/executing them. If I'm finding myself getting overran or out-timed because of my opponents physical traits(strength, speed, height, etc), I re-evaluate what I need to do to make what I'm doing more effective and make the appropriate adjustment. Pertaining more to BJJ, I've found that having a solid guard-game and better positioning will make it both easier to pull off submissions as well as help in preventing from being submitted.

I would also suggest asking the instructor on any advice he might have on what you could do with this particular training partner and how to deal with his type of energy.

 

[drop bear]

 

[Darren]

There's a body builder at my gym who is the same level as me, and I don't really know what I get out of rolling with him. I just get smashed, and there's not a whole lot I can do about it. I get smashed by the upper belts, but they smash me with technique instead of just brute-forcing everything. They also give me a little room to work with. There's also some other white belts that are bigger than me, but they temper their intensity so that I can get some work, too.

I'm not scared to roll with this guy. He is using jiu-jitsu techniques, and he doesn't rip submissions. He's a very nice guy. But I feel when I roll with him, I'm basically wasting 5 minutes getting beat up on, because I don't really have much that I can do against him. I know the three answers I can think of, but they don't really help.

1. Decline to roll - I don't really have any reason to, except that I don't feel I get much out of rolling with him
2. He should match my intensity - I can only control myself, not him
3. Beat him with technique - We're both the same rank, and theoretically roughly equal in technique; as I work on technique, so is he

What should be my goal when rolling with a bigger dude?

I roll with guys that are at least 25 years younger then I am, make them work for it!!! Lay on your side, tuck your chin in to your chest, be like a arm on a clock but move faster, keep your arms bent, feel a arm bar coming use the other hand to grab your wrist, turn into the arm bar and flop on you other side, if in half guard use a leg bend, if in full guard put your hand into the opponents lower rib cage and sit on on your butt and hold your head up looking upward keeping the spine straight! If your a white belt so expect to get use to be on your back and being made into a pretzel, in time your will learn to lay on your side and move, in time you will figure it out!!! There are those that will bend you all to hell!! Then there are those that will teach and help you!! Learn from them!!!! And roll with everybody and learn to enjoy being on your back for you are learning!!! Because it one hell of a good time!!!!!!

 

[wab25]

Sorry to dig this one back up.... but someone posted one of this guys videos, and I thought he was interesting to listen to, (I don't agree with everything he says, but he does present good arguments which make you think... )

I was looking through many of his other videos and when I saw this one... this thread popped into my mind. He says what a lot of us here were trying to say... only better and with video....

 

[skribs]

Sorry to dig this one back up.... but someone posted one of this guys videos, and I thought he was interesting to listen to, (I don't agree with everything he says, but he does present good arguments which make you think... )

I was looking through many of his other videos and when I saw this one... this thread popped into my mind. He says what a lot of us here were trying to say... only better and with video....

I ignored my absolute disdain for Icy Mike and watched the video. He does not at all address my question.

He's showing how you can focus on small victories. Some of his techniques are landing. Some of his opponent's techniques are being defended. Also, his opponents are senior belts that are pacing themselves based on his ability.

You'll actually notice that I am perfectly fine with this, as I mentioned in this line in the OP:

I get smashed by the upper belts, but they smash me with technique instead of just brute-forcing everything. They also give me a little room to work with.

This video is showing me that scenario. He's working with people who are better than him, and they are pacing themselves and giving him some room to work.

Now, if he were to spar someone that was so fast and accurate that they could dodge every single strike he threw, and every single strike they threw landed, then I could see the relevance. The fact that he's actually landing kicks (and not only that, but doing "stupid stuff" like the jumping back kick) shows this is a completely different scenario.

I just watched an Icy Mike video for nothing.

 

[wab25]

He's showing how you can focus on small victories.

That's it. That's the answer. It doesn't matter if you are landing most of your techniques, some of your techniques or none of your techniques. Pick something to work on and make better. Pick something realistic to work on and make better. Over time those small victories will come together such that you will have the skills to deal with your opponent.

At the end, he even addressed BJJ. He suggested that maybe, if you are working with someone who is just smashing you flat on the mat.... your first "win" would be not staying flat, but getting to your side when on the bottom.

Now, if he were to spar someone that was so fast and accurate that they could dodge every single strike he threw, and every single strike they threw landed, then I could see the relevance.

Then he would be picking different "wins." Maybe block one punch, maybe slip one punch, maybe land one punch on his arm if the guy is so fast that he dodges every strike... In the video, his first "win" was to land a single upper cut from clinch. He knew this guy always gets into the clinch, he wanted to train one technique from the situation he knew he was going to be in. He "won" one the very first time he landed that punch. The rest was gravy... didn't matter that he landed anything else or not.

The fact that he's actually landing kicks (and not only that, but doing "stupid stuff" like the jumping back kick) shows this is a completely different scenario.

It is not a completely different scenario. Its the same scenario at a different place in the scale.

If I were to spar, TKD rules with you, my "win" would not be a KO. It would not be get more points than him. My first win would be: last the entire round with out gasing out. When I can do that, maybe it would be: make him at least work up a little sweat in kicking my trash. Then I might define my win as: make him miss one kick. Note that it may take me quite a few tries, across quite a few days / weeks of training to get that "win." In which case, my "wins" would be "saw the kick coming... even though I could not react yet," "saw the kick coming and reacted, even though I reacted wrong," "saw the kick coming, reacted right, but too slow," etc.

The thing is that this process can be used, no matter what the relative skill levels are, between the two training.

 

[skribs]

That's it. That's the answer. It doesn't matter if you are landing most of your techniques, some of your techniques or none of your techniques. Pick something to work on and make better. Pick something realistic to work on and make better. Over time those small victories will come together such that you will have the skills to deal with your opponent.

I can't bench 300 pounds. If there is a 300 pound bar, how do I measure my progress on it?

I know the answer is "don't bench 300 pounds. Start with a lower weight and work your way up." This guy is the equivalent of that 300 pound bar. The lower weight options are the other people I roll with, either because they're more competitive for me, or they're more considerate of my strength and ability.

Then he would be picking different "wins." Maybe block one punch, maybe slip one punch, maybe land one punch on his arm if the guy is so fast that he dodges every strike...

A win is an ineffective version of a technique?

It is not a completely different scenario. Its the same scenario at a different place in the scale.

Just because scenarios are on a scale doesn't mean advice is comparable. There's a big difference in response to a small abrasion compared with road rash, but they're on the same scale.

 

[wab25]

I can't bench 300 pounds. If there is a 300 pound bar, how do I measure my progress on it?

I know the answer is "don't bench 300 pounds. Start with a lower weight and work your way up." This guy is the equivalent of that 300 pound bar.

Only in your head. This guy is just another guy in the gym. If you start out, believing that he is impervious to everything you try.... then you will be correct. Maybe the first win should be "this guy is not impervious to everything I do." He is presenting you with a unique training opportunity. Do with that opportunity what you will.


(its really not that unique of an opportunity.... but building up the skills now to deal with it, will help you later, with the next guy who does this)

 

[skribs]

If I were to spar, TKD rules with you, my "win" would not be a KO.

I had to quote this in a separate post, because this advice is so far off the mark of the question I was asking, I have to ask if you even know what the question was.

Please tell me where I said in my post anything along the lines of being upset with not KO'ing my opponent? Did I say in my post that "Hey, there's this guy that's stronger than me, and I'm pissed off that I can't tap him ten times in a round."

Did I say anything like that? No. I did not.

In fact, I said, there are plenty of people that smash me and I have no chance against, but I am able to find those small victories that you're preaching about.

What is the point of all of this? What are you trying to teach me that you think I don't already know?

When I would roll with this guy (and it has been a while, he may have quit), I could literally nothing. My grips didn't matter. My frames didn't matter. I couldn't make him budge if I tried to do any technique. I couldn't prevent him from moving anywhere he wanted to go in any way he wanted to go. If he pulled guard, I couldn't break or pass his guard, but he could easily sweep me. If he took me down, he would break my guard like it was nothing, climb over one leg into half guard, and just take the Americana.

Against this guy, there was essentially no difference between me and a grappling dummy. The grappling dummy is technically lighter, but I don't know that it mattered to him.

Imagine if you were going all-out against a 5-year-old. Would that 5-year-old be able to find any small victories against you?

You keep hammering that I need to find small victories. There are none. None. Like benching that 300 pound bar. There's no way I'm going to make gains there.

 

[wab25]

When I would roll with this guy (and it has been a while, he may have quit), I could literally nothing. My grips didn't matter. My frames didn't matter. I couldn't make him budge if I tried to do any technique. I couldn't prevent him from moving anywhere he wanted to go in any way he wanted to go. If he pulled guard, I couldn't break or pass his guard, but he could easily sweep me. If he took me down, he would break my guard like it was nothing, climb over one leg into half guard, and just take the Americana.

Against this guy, there was essentially no difference between me and a grappling dummy. The grappling dummy is technically lighter, but I don't know that it mattered to him.

Been there, done that. Will be there again.... many times... this coming Wednesday in fact.... As have many of the folks that offered similar advice here.

In fact, I said, there are plenty of people that smash me and I have no chance against, but I am able to find those small victories that you're preaching about.

So, do the same thing with this guy. Just choose different victories with him... smaller victories maybe....

You keep hammering that I need to find small victories. There are none. None.

This is a mental block. Maybe getting to the point where you can find a small victory to work on with him, should be your first small victory....

Anyway, the whole point of posting this video to this thread, was an effort to help out. I had no idea that you already disliked the guy in the video. If you have already determined that there is literally nothing to be gained from rolling with this guy.... I won't be able to change your mind.

 

[skribs]

So, do the same thing with this guy. Just choose different victories with him... smaller victories maybe....

This is a mental block. Maybe getting to the point where you can find a small victory to work on with him, should be your first small victory....

That was the question in this thread. That's the title of this thread. Do you have an answer for me? Or are you just going to restate my question back at me?

It's quite literally like talking to a brick wall, because I'm hearing an echo from you instead of getting help.

 

[wab25]

Do you have an answer for me? Or are you just going to restate my question back at me?

Sure.... I can make a list and you can pick one or two to work on. But, understand, I can only make assumptions based on what you have shared here.

If he took me down, he would break my guard like it was nothing

1. When he takes you down, make sure you land in the position you want to be in. If he is taking you down, and ending up in your guard... maybe thats your first victory? Do you end up with him in your guard on every takedown? If not, that could be your win.

2. Make him miss his first attempt to take you down.

3. Hold your guard a second longer. This one is hard, as I don't know how he is breaking your guard.... But whatever method he is using, identify the first step he is taking (win) then make him take that first step twice or try for it twice....

My frames didn't matter.

4. Why? Ask your instructor what you could do better with your frames. Then attempt to make that change that your instructor gave you. If your instructor says that making your frame with this adjustment might help... Then your win would be, did you make your frame with that specific adjustment? The win being that you made the adjustment, not that the frame had any effect on the other guy. The win is first making that adjustment once during the roll, then twice... then more often than not... then all the time. Note, you don't have to be successful with your frame, for the win. As you get better with that adjustment, your instructor will be able to give you another.... As time goes on, you will be making these adjustments naturally, whether they work on this guy or not. You may never be able to beat this guy or make any of these things work on him. But, because you are eventually able to get the right adjustments into place... those adjustments, will be much more effective on the other people you roll with... because you learned how to do them under this much resistance.

My grips didn't matter.

5. Same thing here.... why are they not working? Can you improve a detail in your grips? Again, you don't have to effect him... just improve your grip. If grip A fails.... what grip should your transition to... grip B, grip C, an under hook...? So now the win could be, he defeated my grip, but I made the right transition.... even if that grip also fails.... you still succeeded in making the right transition.

I could go on, but there are two themes here. One, you may already be doing things that you can consider wins, and that you could make improvements on. (being taken down, and composing guard...) The other theme is that the success is based on you doing the thing you are supposed to do, under extreme resistance. Regardless of whether it effects the other guy or not. One of two things will happen.... you will eventually get enough details, adjustments and pieces together, that they will start to effect him. Or, you may never effect him, but those things you work on with him, will be very effective for you against other people simply because you learned to do them in such extreme conditions. If you are like the rest of us.... you will eventually get a bit of both. While you may never tap him, or sweep him... you will most likely eventually get him responding to what you are doing and having to try harder or differently.... which you should look at as a huge win.... not as a failure, because he got you to tap again.

Even if all you get out of it is practice breathing and relaxing under a ton of pressure.... that is valuable. I have started there many times with people bigger, stronger, faster, better....

Please forgive my assumptions here.... I am meaning this to be helpful.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I can't bench 300 pounds. If there is a 300 pound bar, how do I measure my progress on it?

I know the answer is "don't bench 300 pounds. Start with a lower weight and work your way up." This guy is the equivalent of that 300 pound bar. The lower weight options are the other people I roll with, either because they're more competitive for me, or they're more considerate of my strength and ability.

A win is an ineffective version of a technique?

Just because scenarios are on a scale doesn't mean advice is comparable. There's a big difference in response to a small abrasion compared with road rash, but they're on the same scale.

Your replies here sound like you’ve decided this is impossible. There are plenty of folks here with experience in BJJ mostly saying the same thing.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I had to quote this in a separate post, because this advice is so far off the mark of the question I was asking, I have to ask if you even know what the question was.

Please tell me where I said in my post anything along the lines of being upset with not KO'ing my opponent? Did I say in my post that "Hey, there's this guy that's stronger than me, and I'm pissed off that I can't tap him ten times in a round."

Did I say anything like that? No. I did not.

In fact, I said, there are plenty of people that smash me and I have no chance against, but I am able to find those small victories that you're preaching about.

What is the point of all of this? What are you trying to teach me that you think I don't already know?

When I would roll with this guy (and it has been a while, he may have quit), I could literally nothing. My grips didn't matter. My frames didn't matter. I couldn't make him budge if I tried to do any technique. I couldn't prevent him from moving anywhere he wanted to go in any way he wanted to go. If he pulled guard, I couldn't break or pass his guard, but he could easily sweep me. If he took me down, he would break my guard like it was nothing, climb over one leg into half guard, and just take the Americana.

Against this guy, there was essentially no difference between me and a grappling dummy. The grappling dummy is technically lighter, but I don't know that it mattered to him.

Imagine if you were going all-out against a 5-year-old. Would that 5-year-old be able to find any small victories against you?

You keep hammering that I need to find small victories. There are none. None. Like benching that 300 pound bar. There's no way I'm going to make gains there.

Why does this analogy anger you so much? It really is analogous, though on a different scale.