The rough guy

[Kung Fu Wang]

Hi
I’m not sure what your line of questioning is getting at?
Apologies
D

In ground game, can a white belt BJJ guy gets an arm bar on a black belt BJJ guy?

I have never seen any of my new students takes down any of my old students. Not sure this applies to BJJ or not.

 

[_Simon_]

I highly recommend this strategy. No can fail.

(C'mooon y'all saw it coming... I haven't posted it in awhile gimme a break!)

 

[skribs]

In ground game, can a white belt BJJ guy gets an arm bar on a black belt BJJ guy?

I have never seen any of my new students takes down any of my old students. Not sure this applies to BJJ or not.

It depends to some extent.

Typically, a lot of things have to go wrong for you in order to be in the position to be armbarred in the first place. Either:

• While you're on bottom (under side control, mount, or back), you allowed your opponent to get into a dominant position, isolate the arm, and transition into the armbar without barriers and defenses in place.
• While you're on top (locked in guard), you placed or allowed your opponent to place your arm in a dangerous position and did nothing about it.

The same is going to be true of most submissions, that they are either the result of a series of events in which you could have prevented it sooner, or the consequence of serious mistakes in your defense. Let's look at defending the armbar from the top:

• If you establish a top position, your opponent cannot do any techniques from the top position.
• If your opponent takes you down and you establish a guard, your opponent is very limited in their submission attacks.
• If your opponent opens your guard and you transition to another guard to retain it, your opponent is still very limited in their submission attacks.
• If your opponent passes your guard and you insert good frames, your opponent is still very limited in their submission attacks.
• If at any point in this process, you are able to sweep your opponent and establish top position, they will be unable to do techniques from the top position.
• If your opponent establishes a pin, and you can break that pin and re-establish your frames, they will again be very limited in their submission attacks.
• If your opponent isolates your arm, and you can re-insert your frames, they will again be very limited in their submission attacks.
• If your opponent is in the late stages of setting up an armbar, there are techniques you can use to prepare to defend. If you are successful in doing so, your opponent will not be successful with the armbar attack.
• If your opponent has the armbar set up, and there are any gaps available, you can simply get out.
• If there is a significant strength advantage, you may just be able to out-muscle the armbar.

It's not just about catching a black belt randomly in an armbar. It's to have enough things go right without the black belt sweeping you, in order for that armbar to be got. There might be situations that allow you to skip some of these steps in class, such as the black belt letting you work, or an "ego buster" round where the submission starts already halfway locked in. In this cases, you have a much better chance (because you skip most of the conditions). But it's still going to be very rare.

There are a few situations where I do think it's likely for a white belt to actually get a black belt in a lucky armbar:

• A "Shark Tank" game where the black belt is the shark, and has been the shark for several rounds. For example, the black belt has been rolling nonstop for the last 30 minutes, and the white belt is fresh.
• An MMA fight, where the white belt has significantly better striking skills. There's a saying in BJJ that every time you get hit, you lose a belt worth of skill. If a black belt is pretty beat up, they might give up the armbar.
• A day where the black belt really isn't feeling that well. Hungover, really bad allergies, etc.
• A significant size and strength advantage.
• Extensive training in another martial art that would directly translate to BJJ skills, but no BJJ rank (i.e. Judo or wrestling).
• Black belt is much older, injured, or in some other way handicapped.

 

[dunc]

In ground game, can a white belt BJJ guy gets an arm bar on a black belt BJJ guy?

I have never seen any of my new students takes down any of my old students. Not sure this applies to BJJ or not.

As in all arts skill (ie belt level) works to counteract other factors like size, athleticism & age - otherwise all combat sport competitions would be dominated by the old guys & there would be no need for weight categories
This would appear to be true for striking arts, standing grappling arts, ground fighting, MMA etc etc

However, in BJJ there is an initial steep learning curve so a much larger, stronger, younger white belt has pretty much zero chance against a tiny old black belt. That changes once someone has a few years of experience (eg blue belt) and physical factors come into play

There's a saying in BJJ that each belt level counteracts 10 years of age or 10lb (5kg). So a 30 year old blue belt would be a fair match against a 40 year old purple belt or a 80 kg purple belt would be a fair match vs a 75 kg brown belt

I agree with this principle, but in my experience the numbers don't quite work. I and my fellow 50 something black belts regularly spar with much younger, stronger coloured belts with no problems

BJJ is much more forgiving than striking or standing grappling in that if you mess up once you have a lot of options to recover the situation. In striking or standing grappling if you mess up once then you may be hit or thrown and it's all over

This is a little tangental to my advice to @skribs about choosing his training partners. When you're rolling you should be focused on learning not winning. That involves trying new things and working on weaknesses and that requires training partners who won't injure you when you're doing that

 

[skribs]

This is a little tangental to my advice to @skribs about choosing his training partners. When you're rolling you should be focused on learning not winning. That involves trying new things and working on weaknesses and that requires training partners who won't injure you when you're doing that

Or in my case, just working on the basics.

 

[dunc]

Or in my case, just working on the basics.

My teacher says that you should build your game by first learning defence. Start by becoming very hard to tap, then get good at escaping & recovering to a good position, then work on your attacks
Maybe this is also a good way to think about it

 

[skribs]

My teacher says that you should build your game by first learning defence. Start by becoming very hard to tap, then get good at escaping & recovering to a good position, then work on your attacks
Maybe this is also a good way to think about it

I'll do that against guys who aren't clobbering me.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

My teacher says that you should build your game by first learning defence. Start by becoming very hard to tap, then get good at escaping & recovering to a good position, then work on your attacks
Maybe this is also a good way to think about it

I have said this before, I wish some of you grapplers were near so I could get some training time with you all. I really want to learn more with people that aren’t just out to squash.

 

[dunc]

I have said this before, I wish some of you grapplers were near so I could get some training time with you all. I really want to learn more with people that aren’t just out to squash.

I think the culture of an academy is very strongly influenced by the disposition of the head teacher
And it seems to me that there is a correlation between success at a high level and a positive training environment

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

in BJJ there is an initial steep learning curve so a much larger, stronger, younger white belt has pretty much zero chance against a tiny old black belt. That changes once someone has a few years of experience (eg blue belt) and physical factors come into play

That make sense. So, the ground game is the same as the stand-up game. Thank for the explanation.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

There are a few situations where I do think it's likely for a white belt to actually get a black belt in a lucky armbar:

• A "Shark Tank" game where the black belt is the shark, and has been the shark for several rounds. For example, the black belt has been rolling nonstop for the last 30 minutes, and the white belt is fresh.
• An MMA fight, where the white belt has significantly better striking skills. There's a saying in BJJ that every time you get hit, you lose a belt worth of skill. If a black belt is pretty beat up, they might give up the armbar.
• A day where the black belt really isn't feeling that well. Hungover, really bad allergies, etc.
• A significant size and strength advantage.
• Extensive training in another martial art that would directly translate to BJJ skills, but no BJJ rank (i.e. Judo or wrestling).
• Black belt is much older, injured, or in some other way handicapped.

I would assume those are the abnormal cases. So, my assumption still holds. There is no lucky ground game winning just like the stand-up game does.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

My teacher says that you should build your game by first learning defence.

My teacher told me the opposite. He prefers me to play offense and lose than to play defense and win.

For example, A uses hip throw on B. B drags A down. B may win the match. But A will earn the respect. The reason is simple. A will have better chance to develop hip throw in his life than B will have.

This is why most of the Chinese wrestling instructors won't teach any defense skill even in the first 3 years. In ACSCA, defense and counter are considered the 3rd degree BB test requirement. 1st degree BB test contain all offense skill. 2nd degree BB test require tournament winning record.

It's interested to compare different approaches between styles.

 

[skribs]

My teacher told me the opposite. He prefers me to play offense and lose than to play defense and win.

For example, A uses hip throw on B. B drags A down. B may win the match. But A will earn the respect. The reason is simple. A will have better chance to develop hip throw in his life than B will have.

This is why most of the Chinese wrestling instructors won't teach any defense skill even in the first 3 years. In ACSCA, defense and counter are considered the 3rd degree BB test requirement. 1st degree BB test contain all offense skill. 2nd degree BB test require tournament winning record.

It's interested to compare different approaches between styles.

Hapkido was about quickly turning a fight in your favor and disabling an assailant, which gives you the best chance to handle the next guy or run away.

BJJ is about how big of a hole can you dig yourself out of. At least the way I see it.

 

[HighKick]

I will use my oft said phrase, " it ain't ballet class". It is a Martial Art. There is Always a risk of injury. Even when it is not intentional. Compliance is Not a guarantee of safety.

Now with that said, I agree there needs to be control measures in almost every kind of workout, BUT there will Always be people willing and ready to circumvent control and safety and go hard (yes, this can be a good thing). I have seen it in every style MA I have trained in, including wrestling (which is my closest experience to BJJ). Even in Hap, which I feel is the style quickest to risk of injury, it seems there is always someone willing to go too hard, or just simply has higher pain thresholds than everyone else. Be the receiving partner and go too soft, risk of injury. Be the aggressor and go to hard, risk of injury. This is much the same when rolling.

The one thing I know for certain is being in too much of a hurry puts a person at risk on either side of the equation.

My saying is meant to make both sides of the equation question their methods and intent. Does it always work? No. But I have used it for some 35-years and it has worked more times than not.

It sounds like you are half in, half out with seeing where you are in your current station. That is okay. Everyone, and I mean everyone is going to get beat by a 'white belt' at some point. Don't dwell on it.

As far as not rolling with the guy or whether you coaches are controlling things well enough, I was not there so have no opinion on the matter. Just remember when you were new in any style and just 'really, really excited to be there'. People get amped up and go too hard. It happens. Hopefully the coaches will put the guy in check soon enough.
I am glad you are okay.

 

[mograph]

Just remember when you were new in any style and just 'really, really excited to be there'. People get amped up and go too hard. It happens.

I thought that those kind of amped-up people would apologize if they went too far, and not say "Quit complaining, nobody else complains, it's only you, you're just mad you're getting beat by a white belt."

 

[gyoja]

I will use my oft said phrase, " it ain't ballet class"

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I thought that those kind of amped-up people would apologize if they went too far, and not say "Quit complaining, nobody else complains, it's only you, you're just mad you're getting beat by a white belt."

If a white belt beats me, I will consider what did I do wrong first. In this thread discussion, it seems to me that nobody thinks the way I do.

We are talking about skill testing here. We are not talking about skill development here. Why should my opponent let me win if I don't deserve it during skill testing?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

it ain't ballet class". It is a Martial Art.

Agree with you 100% there.

My teacher always told me that in the ring, or on the mat, my opponent does try to hurt me as much as he can. The reason is simple, if he can hurt me, I won't have change to hurt him.

On wrestling mat, if I can smash my opponent as hard as I can during the 1st round, I'll have an easy 2nd round. The wrestling rule is totally allowed that you take your opponent down, you lose your balance, and your body land on top of your opponent. The judge will have hard time to tell whether you lose your balance on purpose or not.

If you ever get chance to test your skill in golden glove boxing tournament, you will find out those red necks do try as hard as they can to knock you out in the ring.

 

[skribs]

I thought that those kind of amped-up people would apologize if they went too far, and not say "Quit complaining, nobody else complains, it's only you, you're just mad you're getting beat by a white belt."

Exactly. Bumps happen. If people acknowledge it and try to avoid it, that's fine. If people dig in and blame me for being upset, that's where I drew the line.

If a white belt beats me, I will consider what did I do wrong first. In this thread discussion, it seems to me that nobody thinks the way I do.

We are talking about skill testing here. We are not talking about skill development here. Why should my opponent let me win if I don't deserve it during skill testing?

The problem here is you're focused on what this guy said, and not what he did. He said, "You're only mad because you're getting beat by a white belt." The problem isn't that I was getting beat by a white belt. The problem is he's using illegal moves that carry risk of injury, and he's gaslighting me about it being my problem.

And no, we're not talking about skill testing here. We never were. You missed the point from the start. We're talking about someone breaking the rules in a dangerous way.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

And no, we're not talking about skill testing here. We never were. You missed the point from the start. We're talking about someone breaking the rules in a dangerous way.

I don't understand here.

If you use me as your

- training partner (skill development), I'll let you to do anything that you want to do. I'll be just your training dummy and I will not fight back.
- testing partner (skill testing), I'll try to defeat you and I'll not let you win.

This is skill development.

This is skill testing. In skill testing, a high-level belt defeats his low-level belt opponent 5-0. Is this not true in BJJ?