The rough guy

[O'Malley]

I won't anymore.

This article is for when you're better than the other person.

I get that you feel like you can't beat him (although the article is actually geared towards white/blue belts that struggle against spazzy white/blues, because it assumes that purple/brown/black know how to deal with spazzy guys), but if he's just focused on winning the round with his noob-killing tricks instead of improving, you'll soon be better than him. For example:

I am absolutely not. I remember one day, we were playing King of the Hill, where the King has to start seated, first to score a point wins. He kept getting yelled at by the coaches because he kept just standing up and landing a take-down. Coach kept yelling at him, "We all know you can wrestle, the goal of this exercise is to get better at guard."

This means that he's not working on guard. So if you keep training, you'll end up at a point where you can defend the takedowns/set him up into his guard, where you will smoke him.

You have striking experience. In many striking arts, a beginner can overwhelm other beginners with sheer aggression, until they get better at dealing with that. Once they do, they pick him apart with superior footwork and technique. My point is that the cheese he's inflicting you may be good for his ego but it's an inefficient training method, so in the long run he should lag behind those who train properly.

 

[marvin8]

I get that you feel like you can't beat him (although the article is actually geared towards white/blue belts that struggle against spazzy white/blues, because it assumes that purple/brown/black know how to deal with spazzy guys), but if he's just focused on winning the round with his noob-killing tricks instead of improving, you'll soon be better than him. For example:

"Remember, most white belts are not spazzy intentionally; they’re often just overwhelmed and trying to survive."

This means that he's not working on guard. So if you keep training, you'll end up at a point where you can defend the takedowns/set him up into his guard, where you will smoke him.

And if he's using illegal tactics in matches, referees may warn him and deduct points leading to losses. Time spent on cheap tricks is less time spent on more legitimate skill.

You have striking experience. In many striking arts, a beginner can overwhelm other beginners with sheer aggression, until they get better at dealing with that. Once they do, they pick him apart with superior footwork and technique. My point is that the cheese he's inflicting you may be good for his ego but it's an inefficient training method, so in the long run he should lag behind those who train properly.

Champion boxer Devin Haney lost to Ryan Garcia in part to his habit of excessive clinching/ducking and size bullying. Garcia exploited Haney's lack of defense going in and out of the clinch.

 

[mograph]

Isn't there an implicit (or explicit?) contract between members, that there's some sh*t you just don't do when training?
... and this dude has broken that contract?

To me, it's on the instructors to maintain the optimal training environment. Unless they state that a training exercise is a free-for-all, it isn't, IMO.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

This is kind of a vent, kind of a rant, maybe a bit of an "AITA" type of a post.

We've got a guy at my gym that goes pretty rough. Yesterday I finally had enough of his crap, tapped mid-roll and walked away. Told Professor I'm not rolling with him anymore. The final straw was when (after he had elbowed me in the face and kneed me in the back of the head), he said, "Quit complaining, nobody else complains, it's only you, you're just mad you're getting beat by a white belt."

Plenty of white belts beat me, but none of them regularly hit me in the head. But it did kind of stick with me that he's kind of correct. If I could smash him, I wouldn't be complaining.

But I don't think that's a flaw on my part, but maybe a part of how BJJ works. Each person in a roll needs to be controlled. Ideally, both folks will control themselves, so as not to injure their training partner. If you're not in control of yourself, then in order for it to be a safe roll, the other person needs to be in control of you. So yes, I did complain because I can't beat him. But I don't I'm the one with the problem.

I met this same type of guy at the local BJJ gym and posted about him. He was a blue belt and a big guy 6’4” 240-250lbs. I rolled with him my first day. He cross faced me and cranked my neck twice. I asked him nicely not to try to injure me. He was an ***, the instructor did not correct the situation. I quit after three separate class sessions of getting smashed by this guy. I can likely take him to pieces in a striking match ( he has no striking training ) but starting with him in the full mount each time, I never got a chance to do or learn anything other than how to get smashed and a sore neck. The instructor never “taught” anything and never gave any cues or info on what to do. Just, get in guard and see what you can do. I quit because I have a full time job and cannot afford to miss work for being a practice dummy. There aren’t any other BJJ gyms here close to me so I just went back to focusing on CMA. I believe this is a serious flaw of the instructor. I don’t allow bullies, but I don’t have that kind of culture in my gym in the first place. Competition is good and healthy but not at the expense of beginner students. If I see the underdog losing I always come to their aid against m6 more experienced students. They all get the same experienc, so they remember how it was for them. Sounds like maybe you need to try somewhere else or work your tail off to best him. I’m too old for these kinds of ego trips with the 28 year old crowd.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I get that you feel like you can't beat him (although the article is actually geared towards white/blue belts that struggle against spazzy white/blues, because it assumes that purple/brown/black know how to deal with spazzy guys), but if he's just focused on winning the round with his noob-killing tricks instead of improving, you'll soon be better than him. For example:



This means that he's not working on guard. So if you keep training, you'll end up at a point where you can defend the takedowns/set him up into his guard, where you will smoke him.

You have striking experience. In many striking arts, a beginner can overwhelm other beginners with sheer aggression, until they get better at dealing with that. Once they do, they pick him apart with superior footwork and technique. My point is that the cheese he's inflicting you may be good for his ego but it's an inefficient training method, so in the long run he should lag behind those who train properly.

Yeah but who wants to risk an injury just to teach the moron a lesson? It’s generally a poor investment.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I think something getting lost here is that skribs isn't good enough to control the guy to a point he knows he won't get hurt. When someone's better (or at least close) to you, it's a lot tougher to just control them so they can't be rough on you. And if you did have that much control, there wouldn't be a point to train with them anyway.

IMO, skribs did the right thing. Just disengage, and bring it up with the coaches. Only thing I'd say is personally I'd continue to the end of the roll just being defensive, and tell the coaches separately/privately that you're just not going to roll with him. Assuming you've already spoken to him about it (which it sounds like you have and he just doesn't care).

 

[skribs]

I think something getting lost here is that skribs isn't good enough to control the guy to a point he knows he won't get hurt. When someone's better (or at least close) to you, it's a lot tougher to just control them so they can't be rough on you. And if you did have that much control, there wouldn't be a point to train with them anyway.

I definitely agree with this. Except maybe the last part. Short-term there might not be much benefit for me. But it benefits him and it benefits the school if he has training partners that are good enough to control him.

IMO, skribs did the right thing. Just disengage, and bring it up with the coaches. Only thing I'd say is personally I'd continue to the end of the roll just being defensive, and tell the coaches separately/privately that you're just not going to roll with him. Assuming you've already spoken to him about it (which it sounds like you have and he just doesn't care).

I was tired of taking strikes to the head.

 

[drop bear]

Isn't there an implicit (or explicit?) contract between members, that there's some sh*t you just don't do when training?
... and this dude has broken that contract?

To me, it's on the instructors to maintain the optimal training environment. Unless they state that a training exercise is a free-for-all, it isn't, IMO.

There is a lot of hurt you can put on someone within that contract.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I've also had talks about him with the coaches before, and the coaches have said he's still trying to win every roll, he rolls like he has something to prove.

This is a separate issue from being unsafe with his training partners.

Some people come in to sparring and constantly bring there most aggressive A-game, focusing on winning rather than learning. In the long term this will stunt their technical growth, but it can be a useful reality check and technical challenge for the people they roll with.

Being unsafe with training partners (repeatedly elbowing, kneeing, slamming them, etc) is an entirely different problem. It's the instructor's responsibility to do something about that.

The roughness is 100% on him. He's hurt people, nearly knocked them out, and he doesn't care. As long as he gets the tap.

In this case, the elbow was because instead of placing his elbow on the mat near my shoulder, he just ripped his elbow tight as hard as he could. Same thing with the knee to the back of the head.

I do think that may be a flaw on your part.

One time on the wrestling mat, I used right hip throw on my opponent. My opponent's left free hand hook punched on my head. He didn't punch me very hard. He just shown me he could punch me if he wanted to.

Everybody know that punch is not allowed on wrestling mat. But since I didn't control my opponent's free arm (my right arm wrapped around his waist), that was my fault. After that day, I won't use waist wrap hip throw any more. I always used under hook hip throw instead. This way I could control my opponent's both arms, so he won't be able to punch me anymore.

I'm sure the stand-up wrestling experience can be mapped into the ground game experience as well. In ground game, if your opponent has free arm or free leg, that will be your fault. That means you don't have 100% control on your opponent.

In sport, you can't expect your opponent's free arm or free leg won't attack you even if the sport rule won't allow it.

Can your opponent do that to you if you can control him properly in ground game?

I assume the purpose of the ground game training is to have 100% control your opponent on the ground.

As an experienced black belt, I take upon myself the responsibility for keeping myself from getting accidentally kneed or elbowed by a klutzy lower ranked training partner. If I see them rolling in a way which makes those accidents likely, then I will warn them to be more careful.

But if a student keeps on hurting their training partners, especially with moves which are not allowed in the sparring ruleset, then eventually you can't really call it "accidental" anymore. Maybe this person isn't deliberately deciding to elbow their partner in the face each time, but they are deciding not to avoid elbowing their partner in the face.

By the same token, if the instructor is informed of the situation and doesn't act to correct it, then they are deciding that having students elbow each other in the face is acceptable. This might be okay if appropriate safety precautions are taken and all participants are informed of the rules. But if most students think that they are practicing pure grappling while some are allowed to throw unanswered strikes, then there is a serious problem.

The first step should be for the instructor to take aside the problem student and issue a firm warning. If the behavior continues, then there are a couple of options depending on the culture of the gym. One is to simply expel the student for refusing to abide by safety rules. Another is to limit the student to rolling with gym enforcers who can reliably control him and feed him a taste of his own medicine. Some people just need to understand that there are consequences for their actions.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I never got a chance to do or learn anything other than how to get smashed and a sore neck.

I wrestled with a guy one time. When he took me down, I didn't release my grip on time. I pulled him down with me. He thought I was using "pull guard" on him (it's not allowed in Chinese wrestling). He dropped his elbow straight down on top of my chest. I got back up, then collapsed back down to the ground again. I almost got killed that day.

For the rest of my life, I tried to avoid that problem from happening again. To me, he taught me a great lesson that day.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The first step should be for the instructor to take aside the problem student and issue a firm warning.

We are talking about 2 different issues here.

- Safety training is one issue.
- Detect personal weakness is another issue.

For safety training issue, my opinion is the same as everybody else. There is not much to discuss. Just to disallow that student to come back. problem is solved.

In my waist wrap hip throw example that I used, it was my problem/weakness to let my opponent to have free arm (to hook punch on my head). IMO, it's much more interesting issue to solve and discuss here.

In ACSCA, a student cannot obtain BB by competing in Chinese wrestling tournament only. He has to compete in Sanda tournament to learn how to deal with kick/punch. So, any bad habit that a student may learn on the mat, he will have to pay a big price when he gets into ring. I'm sure this logic can also apply to BJJ as well.

I cannot understand that in BJJ (or MMA), you are allowed to use "pull guard" and "jump guard" to take me down, but I'm not allowed to smash you.

If technique A's counter B is too dangerous to use, to disallow counter B should also disallow technique A.

how to upload a image

 

[skribs]

We are talking about 2 different issues here.

- Safety training is one issue.
- Detect personal weakness is another issue.

No, we're talking about the first issue.

You hijacked the thread to try and make it about the second.

For safety training issue, my opinion is the same as everybody else. There is not much to discuss. Just to disallow that student to come back. problem is solved.

That only works if you're in charge of the school.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I think something getting lost here is that skribs isn't good enough to control the guy to a point he knows he won't get hurt. When someone's better (or at least close) to you, it's a lot tougher to just control them so they can't be rough on you. And if you did have that much control, there wouldn't be a point to train with them anyway.

IMO, skribs did the right thing. Just disengage, and bring it up with the coaches. Only thing I'd say is personally I'd continue to the end of the roll just being defensive, and tell the coaches separately/privately that you're just not going to roll with him. Assuming you've already spoken to him about it (which it sounds like you have and he just doesn't care).

Agreed, to a point, so long as the guy isn’t trying to actually injure you.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I wrestled with a guy one time. When he took me down, I didn't release my grip on time. I pulled him down with me. He thought I was using "pull guard" on him (it's not allowed in Chinese wrestling). He dropped his elbow straight down on top of my chest. I got back up, then collapsed back down to the ground again. I almost got killed that day.

For the rest of my life, I tried to avoid that problem from happening again. To me, he taught me a great lesson that day.

Well that’s not the issue. I started in guard with him in mount each time. I never got a chance to try take downs from either perspective. If it was a fight or a match that’s different, I was there to learn. I’m still interested, but not in that gym. New students should not be concerned with being injured by other students at the beginning of training. I wouldn’t have any students if just made new people spar with advanced students. IMO that would qualify me as a full on jerk as a teacher.

 

[gyoja]

Well that’s not the issue. I started in guard with him in mount each time. I never got a chance to try take downs from either perspective. If it was a fight or a match that’s different, I was there to learn. I’m still interested, but not in that gym. New students should not be concerned with being injured by other students at the beginning of training. I wouldn’t have any students if just made new people spar with advanced students. IMO that would qualify me as a full on jerk as a teacher.

I spar with my beginners occasionally, but it is to demonstrate a concept that I taught, and never at full speed or power.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If it was a fight or a match that’s different, I was there to learn.

May be this is the difference between styles. In Chinese wrestling, you

- learn from partner drill.
- test through match.

During match, it's testing. It's not learning.

During match. I do try to win every single round. If I lose a round, I have to examine myself and make sure I won't lose again. In other words, I'll blame myself big time if I lose a round.

My teacher told me, one day when his teacher had a match with another guy, that guy threw my teacher's teacher over the head. But my teacher's teacher landed on both feet. That guy declared retirement that day. If that guy's best technique no longer worked, he might have chance to lose in his future match. Since he wanted to keep his perfect winning record, he declared formal retirement from MA that day.

This is why in this thread discussion; I first look at "What did I do wrong that made my opponent to do that to me". I always blame myself first. If my opponent can land his attack on me, that means my defense is weak. If my opponent can kill me in training, he can kill me in real fight. Because in a life and death situation, I won't have the 2nd chance. I do appreciate my opponent can point out my weakness for me.

Not saying which approach is better. It's just different.

 

[skribs]

I had a talk with one of the purple belts today. I walked in, he said, "Hey, did something happen between you and [that guy] last week?"

I told him what happened. He kinda said a lot of the things I mentioned. This guy only goes 100%, never even drops to 90%, but there's things you can do to protect yourself. I pointed out that I'm simply not in control of him the way the purple belt is, and he agreed. He said it was my right to refuse a roll.

I did say I'll talk to the guy next time I see him (which might be months, he usually goes at a time while I'm at work).

 

[dunc]

I feel that when you're rolling your objective is to get better at BJJ (as opposed to winning). Mostly (say 80% of the time) this is technical in nature the rest (say 20%) is to develop toughness

In my view (& bear in mind this is coming from the perspective of an older grappler) it's best to develop
1 - Your technique by rolling with similar or lower level partners who are also trying to improve their technique (ie not trying to win every roll, but rather mutually working on specific things)
2 - Your toughness by rolling with higher belts. You'll get a beating, learn correct defence etc, but ultimately you'll be pretty safe from injury as they will be in control of the situation

The problem with rolling with someone at a similar level (note: this could be a lower belt who's bigger or more athletic than you) who's going 100% to win is that the likelihood of injury is relatively high and the return (in terms of learning) is relatively low

It's always OK to refuse a roll, particularly if it's with an equal or lower belt. FWIW one of the best pieces of advice I received from one of my coaches (who is now 68 and still on the mats) was to pick your training partners thoughtfully and to be proactive when it comes to pairing up

Whilst I agree with the points @Tony Dismukes makes about the instructor's responsibility the ability to choose your training partners is independent of that & entirely within your control

Having said that if you struggle with this approach then you have 2 strategies for rolling with folk like the guy in your post: You either need to completely dominate them and control the situation 100%, or play defence and frustrate them (in my experience it's entirely possible to gas someone out doing this). Anything in-between these options isn't going to keep you safe &/or developing

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

In my view (& bear in mind this is coming from the perspective of an older grappler) it's best to develop
1 - Your technique by rolling with similar or lower level partners who are also trying to improve their technique (ie not trying to win every roll, but rather mutually working on specific things)
2 - Your toughness by rolling with higher belts. You'll get a beating, learn correct defence etc, but ultimately you'll be pretty safe from injury as they will be in control of the situation

I don't know much about BJJ. But in stand-up wrestling, it's very difficult for a low-level belt guy to take down a high-level belt guy.

In MA, there is always a lucky punch. But there will never be a luck take down.

Does the same logic apply to BJJ? Is there a lucky arm bar, lucky leg bar, or lucky choke?

Can a low level BJJ guy put a successful arm bar (or leg bar, or choke) on a high level BJJ guy?

 

[dunc]

I don't know much about BJJ. But in stand-up wrestling, it's very difficult for a low-level belt guy to take down a high-level belt guy.

In MA, there is always a lucky punch. But there will never be a luck take down.

Does the same logic apply to BJJ? Is there a lucky arm bar, lucky leg bar, or lucky choke?

Can a low level BJJ guy put a successful arm bar (or leg bar, or choke) on a high level BJJ guy?

Hi
I’m not sure what your line of questioning is getting at?
Apologies
D