Don Roley said:
Hey, Im sure... I was just interjecting a joke... the first from "Family Guy," the second from "King of the Hill"
I will remember, when I come to Japan, if I see you, not to correct your Taijutsu.
As if. LOL.
The rant thread
- Thread starter Don Roley
- Start date
Hey, Im sure... I was just interjecting a joke... the first from "Family Guy," the second from "King of the Hill"
I will remember, when I come to Japan, if I see you, not to correct your Taijutsu.
As if. LOL.
OP
OP
Technopunk said:I will remember, when I come to Japan, if I see you, not to correct your Taijutsu.
It is not that. I really apreciate input from my partners sometimes. Even the newest newbie can point out that the teacher seemed to be getting the elbow to face the ceiling but I don't seem to be doing it.
It is the whole attitude thing that I get from some folks when they try to point out something to play alpha male. Heck, there are guys that come to Japan, go to training with Hatsumi and then wander around the room sticking their nose in other people's training to show off that they don't need to practice what was just showed. They have to go around and tell other people what to do.
I can accept that from people like Noguchi. He has been going to class with Hatsumi on a weekly basis since before most of us were born and is his right hand man for training. But I have snarled at a few folks in the past about this matter.
Oh, and you should have realized that I might not know the cultural references you used since I don't have American Television here. I do get some things on cable, but I can't bother to watch most of the stuff.
Don Roley said:
It wasnt specifically for you... I was throwing it out there to see if anyone got it.
Don,
I sometimes find this type of behavior stems from someone just not wanting to train and instead wanting to teach. However, if you are in Japan to train then you should train and let Soke and the Shihan do the
teaching.
I remember last time I was their that George Ohashi pointed something out to me and I was very thankful that he did so. Understanding that he is there probably for almost every class and that he took the time to point out my error makes me appreciate what he did even more.
OP
OP
A couple of points.
I see this mainly on the internet, but it is not always limited to the internet and not always relating to ninjutsu. But because a lot of information we got about ninjutsu history and such at the beggining was mistaken it seems we talk about history and such a lot more than most arts.
First of all, I have noticed that a lot of people do not seem to be searching for the truth in on-line discussions. They seek instead to be right. Again, this is not limited to ninjutsu or even the internet. But I notice a lot while reading many conversations. People seem to take a position and think that any attept to tell them that they are wrong is a threat to them. We can be talking about whether the ninja used straight blades, or if the ninja were oppressed minorities and you will see the same thing time after time. Someone will make a statement and defend it to the death no matter how much evidence is shown them. They will grasp at any straw, twist any argument and confuse the issue as much as they can rather than admit that they were wrong.
But you know, if the Bujinkan we do have an alternative to this type of screaming for many discussions. Some subjects can be answered by Hatsumi if you only bother to ask him. There are directions on George Ohashi's site on how to write to him. So instead of arguing if a certain ex-member is still in good graces with Hatsumi and you can still get rank from him why not just write Hatsumi and ask him yes or no. There really is no need to scream at each other on the internet over a lot of things like this. Most Bujinkan members have teachers that come to Japan. If you want to know something about something, ask your teacher to ask someone in Japan. The Japanese shihan are usually pretty open to discussions about swords and Japanese history as well as other less public matters. So, why try to say something that you will try to defend later if you are not certain?
Second rant. I have seen a lot of abuse of the use of anologies. Anologies are good things if one person knows a lot about something and is trying to put it into terms that the other person can understand. They are not perfect, but they are a good, quick way of letting those with a lot of knowledge help those with less to come to an understanding. If we were talking about the shoen system in Japan I might briefly explain that it was close to the sharecropper system you had in America. That is not the complete truth, but you would know enough to understand when I talked about how the people tilling the land did not own it.
The problem is when those with less knowledge try to exploit and use the anology themselves. Instead of knowing something up down and backwards, they look at it rather shallowly and try to understand it in the context of something else more familiar. So if they see that the shoen system had some similarities with sharecropping, they would assume that the social stigmas about being a farmer on a shoen was the same as those that had to sharecrop in the American south. Some people even seem to want to use anologies to make a nice little reality that they are familiar with and benifits them rather than seek out the truth. People try to compare the ninja to the indians so often I want to gag. And they don't just make similarities, some of them actually think that going out and trying Indian religious practices are a part of ninjutsu training. That is only one example. If you don't really, really know the subject leave the anologies to others.
Again, this is not particular to ninjutsu or the internet. But because we talk more about history than other arts seem to, these problems seem to pop up more with us than with JKD or BJJ.
I see this mainly on the internet, but it is not always limited to the internet and not always relating to ninjutsu. But because a lot of information we got about ninjutsu history and such at the beggining was mistaken it seems we talk about history and such a lot more than most arts.
First of all, I have noticed that a lot of people do not seem to be searching for the truth in on-line discussions. They seek instead to be right. Again, this is not limited to ninjutsu or even the internet. But I notice a lot while reading many conversations. People seem to take a position and think that any attept to tell them that they are wrong is a threat to them. We can be talking about whether the ninja used straight blades, or if the ninja were oppressed minorities and you will see the same thing time after time. Someone will make a statement and defend it to the death no matter how much evidence is shown them. They will grasp at any straw, twist any argument and confuse the issue as much as they can rather than admit that they were wrong.
But you know, if the Bujinkan we do have an alternative to this type of screaming for many discussions. Some subjects can be answered by Hatsumi if you only bother to ask him. There are directions on George Ohashi's site on how to write to him. So instead of arguing if a certain ex-member is still in good graces with Hatsumi and you can still get rank from him why not just write Hatsumi and ask him yes or no. There really is no need to scream at each other on the internet over a lot of things like this. Most Bujinkan members have teachers that come to Japan. If you want to know something about something, ask your teacher to ask someone in Japan. The Japanese shihan are usually pretty open to discussions about swords and Japanese history as well as other less public matters. So, why try to say something that you will try to defend later if you are not certain?
Second rant. I have seen a lot of abuse of the use of anologies. Anologies are good things if one person knows a lot about something and is trying to put it into terms that the other person can understand. They are not perfect, but they are a good, quick way of letting those with a lot of knowledge help those with less to come to an understanding. If we were talking about the shoen system in Japan I might briefly explain that it was close to the sharecropper system you had in America. That is not the complete truth, but you would know enough to understand when I talked about how the people tilling the land did not own it.
The problem is when those with less knowledge try to exploit and use the anology themselves. Instead of knowing something up down and backwards, they look at it rather shallowly and try to understand it in the context of something else more familiar. So if they see that the shoen system had some similarities with sharecropping, they would assume that the social stigmas about being a farmer on a shoen was the same as those that had to sharecrop in the American south. Some people even seem to want to use anologies to make a nice little reality that they are familiar with and benifits them rather than seek out the truth. People try to compare the ninja to the indians so often I want to gag. And they don't just make similarities, some of them actually think that going out and trying Indian religious practices are a part of ninjutsu training. That is only one example. If you don't really, really know the subject leave the anologies to others.
Again, this is not particular to ninjutsu or the internet. But because we talk more about history than other arts seem to, these problems seem to pop up more with us than with JKD or BJJ.
Dan---this is a really interesting and important point. Analogies are very seductive ways to argue---they're often vivid and seem to make the point with a high-impact image that people find persuasive. But here's the rub: the analogy (or simile, or whatever) may not be the right one for the case, and may in fact be just another instance of one of the claims being debated. The analogy can't be a conclusive argument for the point because, in the absence of any further evidence and argument, it's no more than a restatement of the original point. This struck me very forcibly once reading a column by the late Mike Mentzer about high intensity workouts as the most efficent way to build muscle tissue. He used the analogy of a revolver, where the hammer, released from its cocked position, causes the detonation of the explosive in the round, and all of a sudden, everything changes: we have a bullet on its way to the target---all on behalf of his belief that a single `emergency call' from an overstressed neuromuscular unit will trigger muscle growth. The analogy was the climax of his argument---but the problem is, if you don't buy his model, then the analogy is simply misguided. There's a different analogy, that of the way a ski binding releases---sudden shocks shouldn't allow a release, but a slow twisting force should gradually push the binding to a point where the binding finally yields a release. It's not like there's a sudden threshhold that's crossed; rather, it's the whole profile of the effect---a steady continuing torque that the binding recognizes (corrsponding to a very different model of high intensity strength training). Mentzer triumphantly delivered his bullet analogy in his column as though it confirmed his original statements, whereas it really only echoed them. This kind of confusion of analogies with actual arguments happens all the time, and seems to be implicated in the kind of cases you're talking about. Analogies are good servants but bad masters...
Many people don't want to discuss any issue; they want you to hear their opinion or what they know, and agree with them. It's a common fault, and I think it's often more common in martial arts discussions. (And, yes, I've fallen into it a time or 12 myself!)
You can't argue or discuss an issue with a closed mind. If I've decided, because I read most of Hayes's books in my teens and saw lots of ninja movies in the 80s, that I know all there is to know about ninjutsu or budo taijutsu... You're never going to convince me if something you say is differnent. Ninja schools have to meet secretly at night, trespassing on private property and doing all sorts of esoteric rituals, and you have to pass a test where lots of guys try to kill you but you simulate killing them so realistically that (fake) heads go flying... After all, I read it in a book and saw it in movies! Throw in a "my style is the best" mentality and you've unfortunately described many of the "cyber-ninja" that show up on line. Or lots of the tournament champions that think they know real fighting... (I can't help but snicker a little at all the "MMA is the closest thing to a real fight..." crap, for example. I've been in real fights... There's no glass, no slippery wet grass or mud, no buddy jumping into the mix... MMA is tough and challenging...but it's still a sport!)
The best "solution" to some of this that I've found is to use the approach my teacher taught me. "Really? Wow... you must be tough! I'm glad I'm not fighting you!" or "I see... I guess I didn't know that." Because you can't win the argument...
heretic888
Senior Master
Grey Eyed Bandit
Master of Arts
On people who're only looking to be right:
As I've said before, I'm spoiled enough to have several training places at my disposal. At one of them (not my regular place), there's a prime example of the above mentioned point.
There's this guy, I don't know his name but he seems to be in his mid- to late thirties, who's been showing up at the last half hour of the monday sessions a couple of times now. He doesn't participate, he just watches, though it's been a while since I was there last time and I don't know if he's currently enrolled or not. Anyway, he has this habit of getting into a discussion with the instructor about the usual "elements of realism" and tries to draw comparisons between his background of krav maga practice, and the Bujinkan. He's actually being exemplary in that he doesn't do it in the usual offensive, veiled insult-laden manner we're used to seeing online, though it's the usual set of questions..."the real fights I've seen personally happened extremely fast, how do you develop the reflexes to handle that? How do you handle adrenaline shock? How long do you need to train until you learn the stuff that actually works?" Etc etc etc.
Now, the cool thing is that I've been present three times already and it amazes me to see that the instructor in question always manages to play it business as usual, each time answering all the guy's questions in a calm, rational manner as though he's doing it for the first time. And even though we keep telling the guy the same things over and over, it doesn't ever seem to stick. The second time we had this discussion, I mentioned the words "taijutsu" and "Bujinkan" and he immediately asked what they meant, as if he'd never heard the words before.
However, guys like these always bring out the fascist in me. Sometimes, I feel like I just want to tell people to beat it and never come back, because I know right from the start they're never going to get any good, simply because they're not there to learn, they're there to have all their prior suspicions confirmed. There's something about that smug look on some people's faces that tip me off directly that they're neither going to be pleasant to train with nor will they benefit much from practice (it is a major part of my job to read body language, after all).
As I've said before, I'm spoiled enough to have several training places at my disposal. At one of them (not my regular place), there's a prime example of the above mentioned point.
There's this guy, I don't know his name but he seems to be in his mid- to late thirties, who's been showing up at the last half hour of the monday sessions a couple of times now. He doesn't participate, he just watches, though it's been a while since I was there last time and I don't know if he's currently enrolled or not. Anyway, he has this habit of getting into a discussion with the instructor about the usual "elements of realism" and tries to draw comparisons between his background of krav maga practice, and the Bujinkan. He's actually being exemplary in that he doesn't do it in the usual offensive, veiled insult-laden manner we're used to seeing online, though it's the usual set of questions..."the real fights I've seen personally happened extremely fast, how do you develop the reflexes to handle that? How do you handle adrenaline shock? How long do you need to train until you learn the stuff that actually works?" Etc etc etc.
Now, the cool thing is that I've been present three times already and it amazes me to see that the instructor in question always manages to play it business as usual, each time answering all the guy's questions in a calm, rational manner as though he's doing it for the first time. And even though we keep telling the guy the same things over and over, it doesn't ever seem to stick. The second time we had this discussion, I mentioned the words "taijutsu" and "Bujinkan" and he immediately asked what they meant, as if he'd never heard the words before.
However, guys like these always bring out the fascist in me. Sometimes, I feel like I just want to tell people to beat it and never come back, because I know right from the start they're never going to get any good, simply because they're not there to learn, they're there to have all their prior suspicions confirmed. There's something about that smug look on some people's faces that tip me off directly that they're neither going to be pleasant to train with nor will they benefit much from practice (it is a major part of my job to read body language, after all).
OP
OP
Looks like you have run into a varient of the What if Monkey. If you click on the link, you will see they are not confined to just ninjutsu.
What if you are wrong Don?
bydand
Senior Master
Don, quick question for you. Is this thread just for your rants, or can anybody jump in? If the latter... I have a great one concerning why everybody with a fresh, ink still wet, release form from a mental institution feels they have to show up at a "Ninja School" for training. After a couple of training sessions come the enevitable questions about when the "secret training starts" or after a technique is shown - how many different ways you can use it to "off" somebody.
If I can release the fustration here it would be great. LOL
If I can release the fustration here it would be great. LOL
Grey Eyed Bandit
Master of Arts
Have everyone do padwork, kamae, ukemi and taihenjutsu only for the first couple of sessions. Gets rid of most maniacs.
The few we have had come in, show up to one or two classes, maybe a little more, then they learn the art of invisibility and one day they disappear, never to be seen again.
ROFLMAO!!!! :roflmao:
Serious question...padwork and ukemi I understand, what are kamae and taihenjutsu?
Kamae are like stances or body positions and taihenjutsu is like tumbling & rolling.
Thanks David! How is Taihenjutsu different from Ukemi?
I believe ukemi is a part of taihenjutsu. I am not totally sure of all that it encompasses. Jeff, Brian, or someone else might be able to shed light on it. I thought taihenjutsu was the whole receiving the ground sort of thing (the art of falling).
