Hip Movements

[slindsey15]

Ok, this was a good watch. Thank you. So, since Won Kuk Lee studied under Gichin then went back to Korea to develop Tang Soo Do, he took with him the older hip movements, whereas Gigo invented the new hip whip movements. So Tang Soo Do's hip movements are more original to Karate than the modern Shotokan movements, interesting.

I'll put a controversial worm in your brain.

It may be the hip thing has nothing to do with power generation, and is only about aesthetics. The whipping motion makes for a nice "snap" in the gi and so people like it. But they don't know it was for aesthetics so they argue about power generation. Sort of the way people argue about what hikite is for. Is it power generation, or arm pulling? I learned to "fold" for techniques with both hands to my side or behind me, then shift my weight forward into the technique. But I've also encountered teachers who put the non utilized hand forward, then pull it back for "counter rotational force" to "increase power".

I don't think my techniques are more powerful with counter rotational force. But my gi sure does snap better.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯​

 

[SirKicksAlot]

It may be the hip thing has nothing to do with power generation, and is only about aesthetics.

It does determine where you end up, such as shoulders square forward or at a 45 degree angle. A Tang Soo Do stylist will more than likely have both shoulders facing forward and be more squared up in a low block, whereas a Shotokanist would have one shoulder forward and the other pulled back, more of a 45 degree angle of torso.

 

[Badhabits]

I don't think that's quite right ...Shotokan has, and teaches both. It's a situational thing as to which method is used. As far as the hip whip thing, the pre loading is for learning purposes. In application, if youre going to move the hips away from the block they would already be in a forward position, no need to specifically pre load. Think about it- a punch or kick comes at you, you move your hips toward the attack just so you can then whip them back and block- timing wise you'd get hit as you move your hips forward to prepare your block. It would be the same as trying to chamber for a block as the punch is coming at you. So for learning purposes, you pre load the hip just like you chamber a block. In application your preceding movement would already have your hips naturally in the forward position. Rotating the hips away would happen organically. Basic example- you just threw a right punch, your right hip is already then in the forward position ready to whip back if you need to throw a block with the left hand. Actually in this example both hips could be forward- even if you last minute changed that right punch into a high block you could still whip the opposite hip away from the block.
Also, when your block ends with the hip forward, like in your TSD there is generally an implied punch at the end of that, it's not only about the block.

 

[Badhabits]

I've been studying a Korean based style a few years now, our instructor also starts with teaching the hips moving with the block. As you progress he then teaches hips moving away as well. He does a good job of explaining the "why" of these things.

 

[Cri70]

This is another one you're going to find a bunch of different ways of being done. I'm not a fan of pre loading the hip like you described. Unless the hip "pre loads" naturally - like it's already there because of a preceding movement. Not loaded just to do it. That fraction of a second pre loading can get you hit. What you'll find is that basic forward or back hip rotation is sort of a foundation, there are more advanced ways of moving the hips that build on this. There's a place and time for both. Some styles do both, you just start out learning one or the other first.

It really depends on the context. At modern (or "traditional", aka slightly less modern) karate distance, it's true. Preload is a visual cue and telegraphs your intentions and provide a small opening or timing cue.

In actual "combative" karate - you're really close range, with your hands and often your head on your opponent. You feel and control your opponent much more by touch than by sight. Visual telegraphing is nearly irrelevant because sight is too slow anyways. It's not always that preloading is useful, but it can simply mean violently pulling someone's arm for then immediately inverting the direction and get your arm past their neck, for example.

 

[SirKicksAlot]

I've been studying a Korean based style a few years now, our instructor also starts with teaching the hips moving with the block. As you progress he then teaches hips moving away as well. He does a good job of explaining the "why" of these things.

Interesting. I have studied Soo Bahk Do for a few decades and Hwang Kee only teaches hip towards strike/block. Maybe your instructor is spicing things up?

 

[Cri70]

I'll put a controversial worm in your brain.

It may be the hip thing has nothing to do with power generation, and is only about aesthetics. The whipping motion makes for a nice "snap" in the gi and so people like it. But they don't know it was for aesthetics so they argue about power generation. Sort of the way people argue about what hikite is for. Is it power generation, or arm pulling? I learned to "fold" for techniques with both hands to my side or behind me, then shift my weight forward into the technique. But I've also encountered teachers who put the non utilized hand forward, then pull it back for "counter rotational force" to "increase power".

In 2024 anyone who still argue that hikite might represent anything else than pulling some body part of the opponent's body is the equivalent of a flat earther or someone who still believes that the Sun orbits the Earth.

Just sayin'.

 

[SirKicksAlot]

Sun orbits the Earth

It does duh! I see it rise in the east and set in the west every day, so it obviously is circling us.

 

[Badhabits]

Interesting. I have studied Soo Bahk Do for a few decades and Hwang Kee only teaches hip towards strike/block. Maybe your instructor is spicing things up?

Could be. His is the only dojo from this style I've trained at, so I don't know if he's an anomaly or not.

 

[SirKicksAlot]

Could be. His is the only dojo from this style I've trained at, so I don't know if he's an anomaly or not.

It is hard to find a place that still teaches a particular art as originally conceived. With MMA, so many martial artists cross train in different arts and will add and subtract things as they think is best. I studied Soo Bahk Do and they are pretty strict with keeping things uniform, but have trained in other Tang Soo Do federations in which the leader of that org teaches as they see fit. Like not all Tang Soo Do teaches the Chil Sung Forms or the Yuk Ro forms.