The Other Hand

[marlon]

glad i have boys...

 

[DavidCC]

I'm having flashbacks. Mine are old now, (25 & 30) but it doesn't matter. You got big troubles dude.

I hear ya. My 22 year old has FINALLY (probably) gotten her head out of her a$$, my 19 yr old has recently shoved her head firmly up there and refuses to pull it out... Kayla will either be a lot easier or a LOT worse, too early to tell!

Good news is she has some sense that their are rules that people live by becasue they help you have a better life (not becasue somebody will get you in trouble if you break them). I never really instilled that into my older 2, at least not explicitly like we are with Kayla (and that is almost entirely due to her Martial Arts training!). example: She accused a boy in her class of cheating at checkers yesterday and he slapped her on the face. Instead of going all "KEMPO!" on him, she calmly told the teacher. Which was the right thing to do but, dang, could she at least block next time LOL

oh one more funny you will appreciate, Doc: we were watching something on TV and they showed a police cadet getting tasered as part of his training. After explaining what a taser is, she asked me why they were tasering that officer. "Because he needs to know what it is like before he can do it to bad guys"; "well I don't want to be a policeman any more" she says hahaha

 

[DavidCC]

slightly back on topic

I have been teaching Kayal to use BAMs at her shoulder as part of a couple of specific sequences: in one tech (DM#2) we do a right inward block followed by a left outer block. I taugth her to BAM her right shoulder with the initial block primarily as a means of getting her left hand into the best position to do the following left outward. Second, in DM#3 we do a left inward block followed by a right punch to the ribs. I taught her to BAM her right shoulder _after_ the left inward block as a way to get her to follow through with the left block and not stop upon contact with the incoming punch, also the tech calls for the left hand to grab the attacker right shoulder after the block, and the BAM really helps the timing of that by giving you a rebound.

So I was watching her practice and I noticed that she is using both of these mechanisms in other techniques, places I never taught her to do that! my little genius, Daddy was so proud

 

[marlon]

This one idea has caused us to do some real soul-searching about many of the SKK techniques we teach, resulting in a number of modifications to the techniques we teach.

Then, add in the need to conform to optimal anatomical behaviors (not doing things that damage your own body), and it gets pretty exciting.

It's best when these 2 concerns can be brought into alignment. I think I have 2, maybe 3 techniques that seem to fully comply with both mandates; and many more that are similar, addressing different but related scenarios. We still have work to do, but it feels like we have some kind of firm ground under our feet at least.

I have to say that with a few modifications from what i have learned from taiji and from Doc almost all of the combinations fit into this category now. The obvious exceptions are the tdk influenced ones but other than that i think we have full compliance with those criteria... but then again i have never met Doc in person...yet

Respectfully,
Marlon

 

[MJS]

As some have pointed out, the level of the student does come into play, as far as how detailed you get. A beginner probably doesn't need to focus on the what if until they grasp the basics, however, I am a firm believer in making sure that they're not sloppy. The person doing the attack as well as the person defending, should have their other hand up, even if its not physically doing anything.

I think that many times, people neglect doing anything outside of the base tech. Like I said, the foundation needs to be set in the beginning, but once the student progresses, why not supplement a punch with the lapel grab in Delayed Sword or Lone Kimono? Throw another strike, move so that the person doing the tech. can't finish it in the textbook fashion, and instead has to adapt to something else.

 

[Doc]

As some have pointed out, the level of the student does come into play, as far as how detailed you get. A beginner probably doesn't need to focus on the what if until they grasp the basics, however, I am a firm believer in making sure that they're not sloppy. The person doing the attack as well as the person defending, should have their other hand up, even if its not physically doing anything.

I think that many times, people neglect doing anything outside of the base tech. Like I said, the foundation needs to be set in the beginning, but once the student progresses, why not supplement a punch with the lapel grab in Delayed Sword or Lone Kimono? Throw another strike, move so that the person doing the tech. can't finish it in the textbook fashion, and instead has to adapt to something else.

or....

as we do, design the default, ideal, base, whateveryouwantocallit technique teaching scenario, so it already takes it into consideration, and eliminates such "what if'" thinking in the learning process. That is the way I was taught. If a technique scenario excludes these things, than (depending upon style philosophy), it is a poorly designed model.

I gave a detailed description awhile back on our presentation of "Delayed Sword," on YouTube and it illustrates that point well.

Great discussion all.

 

[MJS]

or....

as we do, design the default, ideal, base, whateveryouwantocallit technique teaching scenario, so it already takes it into consideration, and eliminates such "what if'" thinking in the learning process. That is the way I was taught. If a technique scenario excludes these things, than (depending upon style philosophy), it is a poorly designed model.

I gave a detailed description awhile back on our presentation of "Delayed Sword," on YouTube and it illustrates that point well.

Great discussion all.

Hey Doc,

Sorry I didn't reply sooner to this. I probably missed it, but the description you're referring to was posted on this forum?

Anyways, for the sake of keeping this thread going, I posted the slow motion version of Delayed Sword.

[yt]618ZYKugQSs[/yt]

What is happening here that addresses the 'what if' phase? I'm not trying to bash SL4, just trying to see what you're talking about.

 

[marlon]

Hey Doc,

Sorry I didn't reply sooner to this. I probably missed it, but the description you're referring to was posted on this forum?

Anyways, for the sake of keeping this thread going, I posted the slow motion version of Delayed Sword.

[yt]618ZYKugQSs[/yt]

What is happening here that addresses the 'what if' phase? I'm not trying to bash SL4, just trying to see what you're talking about.

i personally do not see a point of entry for a 'what if' once the defender starts.

marlon

 

[Doc]

Hey Doc,
What is happening here that addresses the 'what if' phase? I'm not trying to bash SL4, just trying to see what you're talking about.

No need to qualify sir, I know your inquiries are honest.

This thread helps bolster my position about teaching complex physical mechanisms through a video media. It is simply not possible. It however is possible to use the media as personal video notes to support solid in-person instruction.

I'll address several issues in this particular video clip with Prof. Rod Perez, and brown belt Steve "Stix" DeLollis.

The initial movement of the arms, (and more subtle and invisible) the hands, as well as footwork, is to Survive The Initial Assault. That is; grabs do not occur in a physical vacuum. There is always a vicarious physical effect of an expeditious, and aggressive grab or seizure.

In this instance in an effort to grab quickly and aggressively before the victim can react, the attacker actually strikes with the open hand "heel palm" and significant body momentum to the chest, before closing the hand to seize clothing material.

In my experience and lessons, this is simply the way grabs happen in reality. The victim is not static, nor does he allow someone to simply walk up to him and carefully seize his clothing without affecting his body until after the grab. There is significant energy brought to the circumstances before the seizure actually happens in realistic scenario training.

Suggestion: Have someone practice aggressively grabbing and pulling you as quickly as they can, while you stand with eyes closed, and note the body reactions. You should feel your arms and hands "jerk," your hips move rearward, and the effect of the strike to the chest, makes you take a step rearward to "catch" your balance.

The hand and footwork is an extension of the physical effects of the Startle Reflex that will result from an unexpected physical intrusive of personal space. Caught "off guard" as the scenario suggest, the hands will reflexively be drawn to the area of contact, with the arms and elbows retreating to protect the torso. The footwork is induced by the physical contact of the aggressive grab. That is, you are to a certain extent been "struck and pushed" before the grab, and your body will take a step rearwards to regain balance and reflexively stabilize its platform.

So in summation of the initial action of the attacker, it will reflexively create; the hands up position, and the initial stabilizing step rearward.

From that position, we take an additional step rearward with a PAM, (Platform Aligning Mechanism), and Index the hands and arms to complete the stabilizing process of our lower and upper body, and to join them together creating total structural integrity, as we prepare for the Significant Initial Retaliation action. Additionally, the extra step forces the attacker to move with you in reaction, and this will assist in misaligning him, and place him in a "shields down" physical state. Noting there is a physical difference between "actions versus reaction." It will also, if his intent is to punch as well, delay the opportunity until it is to late before you retaliate against him. If he were to attempt an off-balance wild right hand strike, the Indexed right hand in moving to attack the head of the humerus of the shoulder would pick it up as an Inward block.

Keep in mind the scenario is specifically designed for a grab, and not an attempted grab. If you were aware enough to anticipate the attempted grab we would simply strike him first, or at the least not allow him to make physical contact. This is a bone of contention in many Kenpo self-defense scenario interpretations that teach a simple "move first" mindset, that unfortunately ignores the reality that human beings in close proximity to each other are not always going to be "prepared" to defend against such actions. Although the autonomic nervous system monitors our body and personal space from one jiffy-second to the next utilizing various body sensors, it may be overwhelmed and "ignore" certain actions as it rolls back sensitivity to adjust to its current environment. That is, how you react standing in the middle of an empty field where you are unaware of the presence of others, is different from walking down the street in New York during rush hour. On the one, you would probably jump and jerk with heart racing and blood pumping with a momentary "fright" reflex. The other because of the constant noise, and volume of people in close proximity brushing and touching us unintentionally, the sensors would adjust. Otherwise we would take on the appearance of some type of an epileptic seizure as we are standing in line at Disney World.

This is also the mechanism of human anatomy that "pickpocket" thieves use to distract the body sensors with one action so it will "ignore" their true intentions. Magicians and performers use this methodology as well by touching and bumping people while talking to distract the sensors, as they remove your watch unnoticed or perform a "trick." All of these things come under a component Mr. Parker and I made extensive study of over the years called, the Psychology of Confrontation.

So for those who insist on a "move first" approach, my answer is a simple one. In human anatomy, it is not physically possible under the majority of circumstances, and when it is possible it is a small minority of circumstances in a civilized society. Standing in the middle of the jungle is another story.

(Note the amount of verbiage necessary to simply explain the attack and the victim reaction.)

So here we are; Attacker is "extended physically" reacting to our reactions to his Initiated Assault with his weight shifted to one side. His torso is disassociated at the pelvic girdle, and his own reactions will assist in this. The attacker is holding on unbalanced, and we have recovered and are very balanced structurally and prepared for the next action offensively or defensively. We will address our offensive reaction. (After Surviving The Initial Assault, I teach our actions are offensive not defensive.)

From our Indexed arm position, we move through the Indexes to a strike to the head of the humerus of the shoulder that corresponds to L-1, as we cross the visual cortex sensor to "occupy" his PNF (Proprioceptive Neuromuscular Facilitation) Sensors and physically break him down.

(This is one of the reasons for what may appear to be exaggerated movement). All big circles are not bad.

This is done with a BAM Body Alignment Mechanism to your right shoulder, as your left forearm PINS his hand and arm.

The strike will cause the weight to shift to the right leg as it collapses, (it may be imperceptible and internal but does occur), and grip strength of the seizing hand will be compromised.

From here we Pressure Check his shoulder and control depth with our right hand, as we step forward with a Gauging (Front) kick between his legs affecting the Pelvic Girdle and possible striking CV-1.

After the kick, the left hand occupies the Visual Cortex Sensors and right visual quadrant, by moving to an Index Position above the attackers right shoulder.

The right hand now Braces the left hand creating a momentary G.C.M, and provides Anatomical Resistance to align the right arm with the rest of the structure, before unleashing a devastating primary hand sword strike with a BAM, to the right side of the neck at the created posture, and the required angle to LI-18.

The cross and cover incorporate Exit Indexes to control depth should it be necessary. We have no anatomically unsound postures when executing, therefore students are admonished to always practice sound body mechanics regardless of circumstances. Further at higher levels of execution of this Default Technique, we purposely insert grappling assaults throughout the technique sequence, and at the end to insure structural efficacy at all stages of the confrontation.

The representation here is a beginning scenario execution. Although students may not be given all of the reasons for every execution, (it can become information overload), they will execute the same and continually be effective even as they begin to understand, and as we move the technique to even higher levels of execution.

The above information is only a shell of the information in this scenario. The reason techniques are taught "old school" inflexible is to preserve the "Encyclopedia of Knowledge" that scenarios are supposed to be, create platforms for moving to advanced levels, create internal energy through proper body mechanics, etc, all while providing effective functional tools.

There are no "what if's" because those minor possibilities are either addressed in the physics of the Default Technique itself at some level, or another similar scenario teaching vehicle taught concurrently or at later stages. Either way, students are always functional, no matter where they are in their training, whether beginner, intermediate or advanced.

 

[MJS]

A few more versions. Here we have 2 students under Mr. Tatum

[yt]8VlfNS7AHMY[/yt]


James Hawkins doing a few versions of Delayed Sword

[yt]juJ3MAFN9J8[/yt]

Is the 'what if' a factor in any of these versions or is is cancelled?

 

[MJS]

No need to qualify sir, I know your inquiries are honest.

This thread helps bolster my position about teaching complex physical mechanisms through a video media. It is simply not possible. It however is possible to use the media as personal video notes to support solid in-person instruction.

I'll address several issues in this particular video clip with Prof. Rod Perez, and brown belt Steve "Stix" DeLollis.

The initial movement of the arms, (and more subtle and invisible) the hands, as well as footwork, is to Survive The Initial Assault. That is; grabs do not occur in a physical vacuum. There is always a vicarious physical effect of an expeditious, and aggressive grab or seizure.

In this instance in an effort to grab quickly and aggressively before the victim can react, the attacker actually strikes with the open hand "heel palm" and significant body momentum to the chest, before closing the hand to seize clothing material.

In my experience and lessons, this is simply the way grabs happen in reality. The victim is not static, nor does he allow someone to simply walk up to him and carefully seize his clothing without affecting his body until after the grab. There is significant energy brought to the circumstances before the seizure actually happens in realistic scenario training.

Suggestion: Have someone practice aggressively grabbing and pulling you as quickly as they can, while you stand with eyes closed, and note the body reactions. You should feel your arms and hands "jerk," your hips move rearward, and the effect of the strike to the chest, makes you take a step rearward to "catch" your balance.

The hand and footwork is an extension of the physical effects of the Startle Reflex that will result from an unexpected physical intrusive of personal space. Caught "off guard" as the scenario suggest, the hands will reflexively be drawn to the area of contact, with the arms and elbows retreating to protect the torso. The footwork is induced by the physical contact of the aggressive grab. That is, you are to a certain extent been "struck and pushed" before the grab, and your body will take a step rearwards to regain balance and reflexively stabilize its platform.

So in summation of the initial action of the attacker, it will reflexively create; the hands up position, and the initial stabilizing step rearward.

From that position, we take an additional step rearward with a PAM, (Platform Aligning Mechanism), and Index the hands and arms to complete the stabilizing process of our lower and upper body, and to join them together creating total structural integrity, as we prepare for the Significant Initial Retaliation action. Additionally, the extra step forces the attacker to move with you in reaction, and this will assist in misaligning him, and place him in a "shields down" physical state. Noting there is a physical difference between "actions versus reaction." It will also, if his intent is to punch as well, delay the opportunity until it is to late before you retaliate against him. If he were to attempt an off-balance wild right hand strike, the Indexed right hand in moving to attack the head of the humerus of the shoulder would pick it up as an Inward block.

Keep in mind the scenario is specifically designed for a grab, and not an attempted grab. If you were aware enough to anticipate the attempted grab we would simply strike him first, or at the least not allow him to make physical contact. This is a bone of contention in many Kenpo self-defense scenario interpretations that teach a simple "move first" mindset, that unfortunately ignores the reality that human beings in close proximity to each other are not always going to be "prepared" to defend against such actions. Although the autonomic nervous system monitors our body and personal space from one jiffy-second to the next utilizing various body sensors, it may be overwhelmed and "ignore" certain actions as it rolls back sensitivity to adjust to its current environment. That is, how you react standing in the middle of an empty field where you are unaware of the presence of others, is different from walking down the street in New York during rush hour. On the one, you would probably jump and jerk with heart racing and blood pumping with a momentary "fright" reflex. The other because of the constant noise, and volume of people in close proximity brushing and touching us unintentionally, the sensors would adjust. Otherwise we would take on the appearance of some type of an epileptic seizure as we are standing in line at Disney World.

This is also the mechanism of human anatomy that "pickpocket" thieves use to distract the body sensors with one action so it will "ignore" their true intentions. Magicians and performers use this methodology as well by touching and bumping people while talking to distract the sensors, as they remove your watch unnoticed or perform a "trick." All of these things come under a component Mr. Parker and I made extensive study of over the years called, the Psychology of Confrontation.

So for those who insist on a "move first" approach, my answer is a simple one. In human anatomy, it is not physically possible under the majority of circumstances, and when it is possible it is a small minority of circumstances in a civilized society. Standing in the middle of the jungle is another story.

(Note the amount of verbiage necessary to simply explain the attack and the victim reaction.)

So here we are; Attacker is "extended physically" reacting to our reactions to his Initiated Assault with his weight shifted to one side. His torso is disassociated at the pelvic girdle, and his own reactions will assist in this. The attacker is holding on unbalanced, and we have recovered and are very balanced structurally and prepared for the next action offensively or defensively. We will address our offensive reaction. (After Surviving The Initial Assault, I teach our actions are offensive not defensive.)

From our Indexed arm position, we move through the Indexes to a strike to the head of the humerus of the shoulder that corresponds to L-1, as we cross the visual cortex sensor to "occupy" his PNF (Proprioceptive Neuromuscular Facilitation) Sensors and physically break him down.

(This is one of the reasons for what may appear to be exaggerated movement). All big circles are not bad.

This is done with a BAM Body Alignment Mechanism to your right shoulder, as your left forearm PINS his hand and arm.

The strike will cause the weight to shift to the right leg as it collapses, (it may be imperceptible and internal but does occur), and grip strength of the seizing hand will be compromised.

From here we Pressure Check his shoulder and control depth with our right hand, as we step forward with a Gauging (Front) kick between his legs affecting the Pelvic Girdle and possible striking CV-1.

After the kick, the left hand occupies the Visual Cortex Sensors and right visual quadrant, by moving to an Index Position above the attackers right shoulder.

The right hand now Braces the left hand creating a momentary G.C.M, and provides Anatomical Resistance to align the right arm with the rest of the structure, before unleashing a devastating primary hand sword strike with a BAM, to the right side of the neck at the created posture, and the required angle to LI-18.

The cross and cover incorporate Exit Indexes to control depth should it be necessary. We have no anatomically unsound postures when executing, therefore students are admonished to always practice sound body mechanics regardless of circumstances. Further at higher levels of execution of this Default Technique, we purposely insert grappling assaults throughout the technique sequence, and at the end to insure structural efficacy at all stages of the confrontation.

The representation here is a beginning scenario execution. Although students may not be given all of the reasons for every execution, (it can become information overload), they will execute the same and continually be effective even as they begin to understand, and as we move the technique to even higher levels of execution.

The above information is only a shell of the information in this scenario. The reason techniques are taught "old school" inflexible is to preserve the "Encyclopedia of Knowledge" that scenarios are supposed to be, create platforms for moving to advanced levels, create internal energy through proper body mechanics, etc, all while providing effective functional tools.

There are no "what if's" because those minor possibilities are either addressed in the physics of the Default Technique itself at some level, or another similar scenario teaching vehicle taught concurrently or at later stages. Either way, students are always functional, no matter where they are in their training, whether beginner, intermediate or advanced.

WOW!!! As always Doc, you leave me with some things to work on! Looks like you and I were posting at the same time last night, so my post with the 2 other clips wasn't a reply to this post, just wanted to post a few other things for comparison.

I'm going to class in a few more hours, so I'll work on that experiment and report my results.

It is interesting though, because way too often, when working techniques, I see people doing a 'relaxed' grab. Someone just stands there, allows the person to lightly grab their lapel, and there is no change in the body of either person. Personally, I hate when someone does that to me. I'd rather have the more realistic attack to give that feeling and body change/adjustment. Kind of like someone choking you and their hands are on your shoulders. LOL!

Thanks again!

Mike

 

[Doc]

correction that should read;

"If he were to attempt an off-balance wild LEFT hand strike."

 

[MJS]

Looks like I forgot to get back to this thread. Anyways....yes, things happened just as you said Doc. The experiment, the clip and the written explaination of yours is much more clear now.

Thanks.

 

[Doc]

Wow. Thank you. wow. you have touched on so much here that will take time to digest, and yet intuitively and logically it seems so right. Btw when will be able to see some of the techniques you have created sir? And once again, i thank you for the time, effort and wonderful display of knowledge and logic that you put into answering these questions. I am humble and grateful

Respectfully,
marlon

Some base techniques are on YouTube under "SubLevel Kenpo." But most techniques you'll recognize are not created by me, but merely adjusted to fit the mandates of the science of successful applications as taught to me by Mr. Parker.

Than there are the techniques that are created by me to address specific sets of circumstances not represented in general teaching.